Separating Traitors and Renegades

[Dammeron]

NOTE: I would be extremely grateful if this thread did not devolve into a debate as to the merits of implementing the ideas it contains. Ideally what I'm looking for are suggestions on how the core concept might be implemented in gaming terms. Thanks very much

 

 

One of the elements of Chaos Space Marine armies that seems to have become well established of late is that there are two distinct types of Chaos Space Marine at large in the 40K universe: Traitors and Renegades. Traitors covers those Chaos Space Marines who have somehow survived since the Horus Heresy, elite veterans from a long forgotten era who have fought through madness and damnation for the past ten millennia, whereas Renegades refers to those more recent turn coats who have spat on their oaths of loyalty to Terra in modern times.

 

The principle defining differences between the two it seems to me consist of two factors: experience and equipment. Whereas the former have millennia of experience behind them, the latter have access to more modern weaponry and equipment.

 

So, how would be the most efficient and effective way of defining this difference in gaming terms? Personally, I can see two means of introducing this element into a 40K army list:

 

1. Introduce "Traitor Marines" as a distinct unit in the Chaos Space Marine army list, ideally occupying an "Elites" slot in place of the under-baked "Chosen." They would boast a bolstered stat line (WS 5, 2 attacks), be Stubborn as standard and have access to enhanced "Marks" of Chaos that provide benefits redolent of the various chaos "cults." Their effectiveness would be limited by a prohibitive points cost. There would also ideally be an option of including them as troops in a Chaos army based on an upgrade that can be purchased for a Chaos Lord/Sorcerer (ideally, your basic Chaos Lord would be diminished somewhat to WS5 and lack Fearlessness so that the enhanced Traitor Lord could boast WS6 and the Fearless rule. The Traitor Lord would also have access to the enhanced Marks of Chaos). Renegades would then be represented by your bog basic Chaos Space Marines who would be cheaper points wise and have access to a limited number of certain weaponry/equipment options that Traitor Marines do not.

 

2. Introduce an "upgrade" for particular existing units that allows them to be designated as "Traitors" for a particular points cost. Units upgraded in this manner would gain bolstered stats and stubborn special rule, but lose access to certain specialist weaponry. They would also gain access to the bolstered Marks of Chaos as opposed to icons.

 

 

It seems to me that the implementation of one or the other of these very simple systems could enhance the potential of the Chaos Space Marine army list massively, allowing one to create a force of one or the other of the traditional Traitor Legions very effectively as well as a variety of meaningful renegade forces. Anyone else have any suggestions as to how this could be acheived?

[Legatus]

I would prefer to refer to the heresy Marines as "Traitor Legions" instead of just "Traitors", since renegades are traitors just as much.

 

The easiest way to represent renegades is to not take cult units, daemons and marks (even hold back on undivided). It might feel a little disadvantageous, but if you want to play renegades that is the price you have to pay.

 

While renegades would start out with the more advanced gear at the time they turn, they will still lose the means to maintain and resupply that kind of gear once they cut their ties to imperial forge worlds and the adeptus mechanicus. 2-3 years after turning they might still have speeders and assault cannons, but 20-30 years after turning they will already have lost a lot of that gear and would not easily be able to replace it.

[Lay]

Allow Huron the abilty to add a few loyalist options to the army.

[Sception]

Well, this looks like wishlisting to me. And since I can never turn down an opportunity to idly spout off what I think a chaos marine codex should look like, here's a text wall: :D

 

 

First, I'd alter the fluff to more explicitly have 'traitors' and 'renegades' working together. Heresy era marines, even acknowledging the time displacement of the eye of terror, are all veterans of thousands of years of constant warfare against each other and against the enemies of Chaos. As such, all heresy era marines should explicitly be veterans of one type or another, if not characters. All of the legions will have had to replace losses (even the sons need to replace fallen sorcerers), and as such, all look for new recruits where possible - including new chaos marines created with stolen loyalist geneseed (chaos geneseed being too warp corrupted to make new marines), Bile's cloning techniques, or corruption/recruitment of 'renegade' space marines. The latter is the most preferable, since it represents simultaneously a reduction in the Imperium's strength and an increase in the strength of the Legion, without the expense in time or equipment required to train a new chaos marine from scratch. It is these lesser marines that fill out the bulk of a Legion's power armored ranks, even if they are not seen as 'full legion members' until they have proven themselves repeatedly in battle and earned the right to veteran status (or get inducted into the cults in the case of aligned legions), at which point they are full veterans with the same stats as those Heresy era traitors who have not risen above their peers to become commanders in their own right.

 

For their part, the Renegades turn to the Legions to escape the Inquisition. Once a squad or company of marines is suspected of heresy, the Inquisition hunts them down relentlessly, and with overwhelming force. Such marines are inevitably wiped out if they can't find some protection, and the Eye of Terror and Maelstrom are among the few places in the galaxy that can shelter such marines from the Inquisition's wrath. In this way, even renegade marines who were not chaos worshipers are forced into the welcoming arms of chaos. Rarely do they escape to these places with much equipment intact, and what better equipment they do have (especially terminator armor), is quickly stripped from them to give to 'full legion members' as a condition of their acceptance.

 

In those extremely rare cases where an entire Marine chapter goes renegade, complete with their equipment and strength of arms, such marines rarely turn to the Chaos powers, and instead seek to establish their own domains far from imperial control. Since turning to the forces of chaos is a last resort, such chapters don't do so until all other options have failed, and most of their equipment been lost in the process. Armies for such breakaway chapters that have not yet been forced into so desperate a situation would still use Codex: Space Marines.

 

 

In the book, I would have 'renegade' marines occupying grunt positions (basic troops), and positions that involve considerable danger with limited opportunity for immediate glory (recon untis - aka bikes, gun support - aka havoks, vehicle drivers & pilots, etc). Triators and renegades who had earned full Legion membership through their experience would occupy more prestigious positions (terminators, veterans, dreads & characters, etc). I would raise undivided to the status of the other marks - making 'chosen' functionally an undivided cult unit. All vets (aka legionairs, or 'traitors') would be a member of some cult or equivalent. Berzerkers would be the Khornate vet equivalent, Chosen the Undivided Vet equivalent, Raptors and Oblits being independant cults that perform essential duties for all the Legions even if they remain independent of them. All of these would be their own units in the codex so that equipment and special rules would be easier to designate for them. Champions in any unit would be full legion members.

 

Distinguishing the 'traitor' units from the 'renegade' units (or in my mind the 'Legionairs' from the 'Aspirants') would be done primarily with stat lines. 'Renegade' units would have normal marine stats, Ld 8. 'Traitors' would have Ws5, Bs5, Ld9 and be stubborn (not fearless, not even the cult units, imo.) Aspiring Champions would be an option to replace normal squad sergeants as Traitors with two attacks and Leadership 10.

 

Marks would have their set affects for any unit. Cult Units and Cult Terminators (remember that chosen and undivided terminators would be among them - essentially becoming the 'undivided cult') would be locked into a particular mark (or in the case of raptors and oblits not be allowed any), and would have additional benefits in the form of unique equipment and special rules that would apply to any independent character of the same mark that joins them (ie, a Nurgle Lord that joins a unit of Plagues gains Defensive Grenades and Feel No Pain as long as he's with them, an Undivided lord that joins a unit of Raptors gains expert rider and hit & run, etc). Undivided vets/terminators could choose from infiltrate, furious charge, or tank hunters for this. (Berzerkers and Berzerk Terminators would have additional rules - probably preferred enemy (any) - in addition to their khorne mark to distinguish them from furious charging undivided vets).

 

Lords and Sorcerers would be rolled into the same unit entry with an option for psychic powers and psyker gear with a sorcerer upgrade (unless you're khorne marked, included in the Tzeentch mark). HQs would be Special Characters (a Chaos Lord for each legion, plus Bile, Cypher, and Huron), with two generic HQs - Prince and Lord. Taking a Lord is required to field terminators of the same mark, and each Lord selected allows the army to field a single unit of similarly aligned vets as a troops choice.

 

Some of the special characters (the aligned ones, obviously, and probably the Iron Warriors character for undivided) would allow any number of like aligned vet units as troops, at the cost of preventing the army from fielding any other marks (markless units, including oblits, raptors, and unmarked cultists and CSMs, would still be allowed - remember that all characters, terminators, and vets come with marks). Others might make other changes (Night Lords hero might allow undivided vets to take bikes; Cypher might allow undivided termies and vets to replace stubborn with ATSKNF; etc). Abby would, of course, count as having every mark, and thus allow any brand of terminators to be fielded and allow one of each aligned vet unit as a troops choice. He might also be required to join an undivided terminator unit and grant them some additional benefit (speartip assault, may charge the turn they teleport?). Bile, as an independent force and cross legion mercenary, would be markless, allowing him to be fielded even alongside other legion-restrictive HQs, although he wouldn't in and of himself allow terminator squads or vets in Troop Slots. Instead he would grant buffs to basic 'renegade' CSM squads.

 

Daemon Princes would be cool, but their separation from the affairs of the mortal realm and their lack of a mortal perspective makes it harder for them to maintain their dedication to a particular chaos Legion or group, hence not unlocking terminators or allowing vets of their marks in troops slots. In exchange they'd be highly customizable and quite beastly.

 

 

 

So in my mind the codex would have the following marine units, and would be explicit about which represented original traitors or vets with considerable experience and status, and which represented more recent 'renegades' or newly created chaos marines.

 

Special Characters: 1 for each Legion plus Huron, Cypher, Bile. All 'traitors' or in Huron's case, 'veteran renegades'

 

HQ: Prince and Lord. both 'traitors' or 'veteran renegades'

 

Cult Elite: Terminator for each alignment (including undivided, must field lord with matching mark), Vet Squad for each alignment (inc. undivided, Each Lord allows one unit of same mark as troops). All 'traitors' or 'veteran renegades'

 

Other Elite: Possessed (may be 'traitors', 'renegades', or 'forcibly possessed loyalists', with the same stats regardless), Dreadnoughts (traitors)

 

Troops: Chaos Marines. (renegades)

 

Fast: Chaos Bikes (renegades) and Chaos Raptors (traitors, independent)

 

Heavy: Havoks (renegades) and Obliterators (traitors, independent)

 

 

Not listed, of course, are vehicles, daemons, cultists, and the like, which are neither 'traitor' nor 'renegade' marines, though vehicles with marine pilots (ie, not defilers, and not 'traitor guard' tanks if any are introduced) would be based on renegade statlines (ie, BS4).

[Sception]

Hrm. I just noticed the edit on the top of the OP, and now I'm wondering if my post wasn't what you're looking for. I agree with your desire to see a more clear distinction between 'traitors' and 'renegades', express my desire to see them integrated into the same army within the fluff even while the rules makes distinctions about which units represent what, and write out what rules that do so might look like. So I think my post, long and wishlisty as it is, is still more or less on topic.

 

If not, just say something, and like 'ole Gorby I'll tear the (text) wall down. :D

[Dammeron]

Hrm. I just noticed the edit on the top of the OP, and now I'm wondering if my post wasn't what you're looking for. I agree with your desire to see a more clear distinction between 'traitors' and 'renegades', express my desire to see them integrated into the same army within the fluff even while the rules makes distinctions about which units represent what, and write out what rules that do so might look like. So I think my post, long and wishlisty as it is, is still more or less on topic.

 

If not, just say something, and like 'ole Gorby I'll tear the (text) wall down. ;)

 

 

Hey Malisteen,

 

Actually, your original post was precisely the kind of response I was looking for :D

 

I'll get back to you in more detail on your specific suggestions (most of which I think are extremely feasible and would be great fun to implement) at some point in the not too distant future.

[the jeske]

(even the sons need to replace fallen sorcerers),

they have a ritual for that. as long as 1 1ksonslives and has enough thralls and a good focus he can rise back his brothers. for the whole 1ksons legion to be wiped out one whould have to kill all including mangnus.

[Corpse.]

Its as simple as the Legions Codexes.

 

Because only the legions existed to become those traitors, and only they obtain those benefits of being such said traitors.

 

Recent 'renegades' is the current chaos codex, hands down opinion by many there.

 

I don't know what to discuss here although people have plenty to say on the topic.

 

 

As for the superior stats, if they didn't do that for 3.5 codex, I severely doubt they will do that for the legions/current codex. I think a long line of applied USR applications will differentiate instead of stat boosts. They are normal marines, only the exceptional marines make stats like commanders/lords do. Zerkers/Grey knights are specialists in their fields for the WS5. No matter how much you do sometimes natural selection makes you still the same trooper you were ten thousand years ago. Just with more experience to make you do certain things better, or knowledge to be ABLE to do certain things. Like charge furiously, be able to tank hunt and so on. Just like the 3.5 codex allowed us.

[Sception]

they have a ritual for that. as long as 1 1ksonslives and has enough thralls and a good focus he can rise back his brothers. for the whole 1ksons legion to be wiped out one whould have to kill all including mangnus.

 

I was under the impression that said ritual can only bring back Rubric automatons, not the controlling sorcerers. And even if there was fluff indicating the sorcerers could be returned, where I writing the chaos codex I would change it. IMO all the chaos legions should build around the same foundation of basic marines with cultists to fill out numbers and elite veterans in specialized roles. If all the forces of chaos follow the same general structure then they can be represented by the same codex, even if there's some variety as to the nature of the specialists and the exact ratio of fodder to marine to specialist varies from one force to another.

 

Otherwise, if the Legions literally share nothing, then they don't work in the same codex. Which means they don't work at all, because a single codex for four to nine completely different, unconnected armies is foolish, and there's not enough chaos support for five separate chaos marine books, let alone nine. IMO there's not enough 40k support for four extra codeces period, regardless of what they are.

 

 

I agree with one of the major goals of the current chaos marine book - bringing the disparate chaos marine forces back into the fold of a single codex. But their implementation has been poor, and one of the chief ways that it was lacking was that the book didn't take the time to re-fluff chaos marine forces to bring renegades and heresy traitors together, or to reorganize the legions so that they shared a vague approximation of the same structure - at least enough to make them make sense in the same book again.

 

Recent 'renegades' is the current chaos codex, hands down opinion by many there.

 

Really? Then why the cult units? Why Abby, Fabio, Luke, Tyke, and the rest? Why Daemon Princes? Why Defilers? Why Obliterators? I know people are disappointed with the generic daemon entries, but if it's the renegade book then why does the book have daemons at all?

 

If this is the Renegade Marine book, where are the Whirlwinds, Autocannons, Land Speeders, Attack Bikes, Drop Pods, and Techmarines that one would expect a chapter of marines recently turned bad to have access to? Why are all the options in the book classical chaos marine stuff, rather then new loyalist marine stuff?

 

Oh. Wait. I know. Because it isn't a 'renegade marine' book, it's a chaos marine book. It's just one that starts from the first print run of the 3.0 book and cuts rules, options, and units out, rather then what I would have wanted, which was something that started from the final version of the 3.0 book and added stuff in. The only concessions made to recent renegades in this book are Huron and Vindicators, and the latter is as much for Iron Warriors as anything else. If anything, the current codex is the 'Black Legion' codex, since they can play anything in the book right out of the box and really suffer only the lack of cultists in representing their traditional armies. Trying to play any other chaos faction, including recent renegades, under the current rules and current fluff is an exorcise of refusing to use large chunks of your codex for no benefit while trying to use 'counts as' to represent a bunch of units that no longer exist.

 

If it were up to me, I would change a lot of the chaos rules to make the codex more flexible and engaging. But I would also change a lot of the fluff to bring the disparate forces of chaos together, either literally (by giving the Legions - all of them - a reason to have to recruit recent renegades, and a reason for renegades to have to seek out the Legions), or by analog (by making the overall structure of the various legions more similar, so that they can share more of the same units in the codex).

 

 

I'm no fan of the 4e book, don't get me wrong. But I am absolutely not on board for any kind of return to 3.5's confusing tangle of ridiculousness. I'm not about to pretend that nine completely different armies are the same army, nor am I about to pretend that five completely different units are the same unit. I didn't appreciate the confusion that such silliness caused. I'm not playing 40k right now because I don't like the 4e book. But if when the 5e book comes out it looks just like the 3.5 book, why I probably still won't be playing 40k.

 

 

 

- All IMO of course. There are a lot of really strong feelings about what a chaos codex should look like. I'm just putting mine out there since this seemed an appropriate thread for it.

[the jeske]

I was under the impression that said ritual can only bring back Rubric automatons, not the controlling sorcerers.

ragnars nemezis was a 1ksons sorc . was killed 3 times.