Rhino as Terain

[Niiai]

Buy a Long Fang unit or any other with the range. Buy a Whino for them.

 

Do not deploy them in the Rhino. Instead place them in top of it to levitate them.

 

It cost's and ekstra 35 points, but would it be doable? (Note the Rhino would be standing still.)

[Frosty the Pyro]

Models may not ocupy the space of another model, the only exception is embarking. No dice.

[Veldrik]

or if it is destroyed and becomes difficult terrain as you should be leaving it on the table if you dont have appropriate scenary (placing it on it's side will also give you even more height).

Plus you get a cover save ;)

[thade]

or if it is destroyed and becomes difficult terrain as you should be leaving it on the table if you dont have appropriate scenary (placing it on it's side will also give you even more height).

Plus you get a cover save B)

 

Frosty has the right of it: two models cannot occupy the same space on the table top...which, despite the 3d of it all, only counts as a 2d plane for this purpose. On a vehicle damage table result of 5, however, it does count as difficult terrain, and you can use it as cover. I have done this myself; in fact, I did it yesterday. Rhino got Wrecked, I climbed my plasma cannon and melta gun on top and as many bolters as I could fit, and when my turn came I sent those Xenos packing. (Silly Eldar.) Rhino's in the shop now. ;) Again.

 

I don't recommend placing it on its side, as it's unstable and your pretty models may topple over and get dinged up. ;) But if that's not a concern, once it's blown up I suppose it's reasonable. It's Difficult Terrain, so you'd have to roll a 4+ on your Difficult Terrain check to climb some of your models up there, but it's true once they're on it that they get a cover save...so if you can get half or more of the unit on top of the Rhino, the rest of your unit can be anywhere still in coherency and get the cover save bonus.

 

...

 

I already see where this is going. =( I feel you are going to try and assert that there's no rule stating that the tabletop is a plane and that they don't occupy the same space if one is on top of another. Pay very particular attention to the Models in the Way entry on p11 of the BRB before picking this fight. The space occupied by a model is represented by it's base/hull. Place a model on top of the Rhino. Does it occupy the same space on the table top as it's hull? Yes, it does, because both of them are on the same space of the table (which is a 2d plane).

 

Even if they could, there is little benefit to this, since:

- When the Rhino moves, the models can't move with it if they ride on top, since units are moved one at a time during the Movement Phase.

- The models would have to run to catch up each time, restricting the Rhino's movement to 4" or less (as the infantry would have to move 4" to catch up then expend 2" of movement to get back on top of it.

- A heavy weaps team would count as having moved.

 

You have two fire points. Stick with that. ;)

[Niiai]

Haha Thade. :-)

 

No I was just curius. I have better things to do than to force my own perspective, on other people, espescialy when it is plain wrong. I don't think it is with the thunderwolves you are refering to though. :confused:

[ShinyRhino]

One thing to remember is that when crawling around on top of a wrecked vehicle, you also roll Dangerous terrain tests. Wrecks are both Dangerous and Difficult. Pray you don't lose your Long Fang models to rolls of 1.

[Niiai]

Besides thatb you lose one round of shooting to moving around, loosing one could be aceptable loses is they can spread detah afterwards.

[rat of vengence]

One thing to remember is that when crawling around on top of a wrecked vehicle, you also roll Dangerous terrain tests. Wrecks are both Dangerous and Difficult. Pray you don't lose your Long Fang models to rolls of 1.

Quick question on that; do you roll for the squad, and then allocate a wound, or roll for each model/model type?

 

RoV

[thade]

One thing to remember is that when crawling around on top of a wrecked vehicle, you also roll Dangerous terrain tests. Wrecks are both Dangerous and Difficult. Pray you don't lose your Long Fang models to rolls of 1.

Quick question on that; do you roll for the squad, and then allocate a wound, or roll for each model/model type?

 

RoV

 

I'm pretty sure it's for each model that moved through the terrain...so it doesn't put the unit as a whole at risk if only two or three models clamber atop the thing, but you have to make an individual check for each model (separating by type is probably okay). Remember that invuln saves may be taken. =)

[Morticon]

or if it is destroyed and becomes difficult terrain as you should be leaving it on the table if you dont have appropriate scenary (placing it on it's side will also give you even more height).

Plus you get a cover save ;)

 

Frosty has the right of it: two models cannot occupy the same space on the table top...which, despite the 3d of it all, only counts as a 2d plane for this purpose. On a vehicle damage table result of 5, however, it does count as difficult terrain, and you can use it as cover. I have done this myself; in fact, I did it yesterday. Rhino got Wrecked, I climbed my plasma cannon and melta gun on top and as many bolters as I could fit, and when my turn came I sent those Xenos packing. (Silly Eldar.) Rhino's in the shop now. ;) Again.

 

I don't recommend placing it on its side, as it's unstable and your pretty models may topple over and get dinged up. ;) But if that's not a concern, once it's blown up I suppose it's reasonable. It's Difficult Terrain, so you'd have to roll a 4+ on your Difficult Terrain check to climb some of your models up there, but it's true once they're on it that they get a cover save...so if you can get half or more of the unit on top of the Rhino, the rest of your unit can be anywhere still in coherency and get the cover save bonus.

 

...

 

I already see where this is going. =( I feel you are going to try and assert that there's no rule stating that the tabletop is a plane and that they don't occupy the same space if one is on top of another. Pay very particular attention to the Models in the Way entry on p11 of the BRB before picking this fight. The space occupied by a model is represented by it's base/hull. Place a model on top of the Rhino. Does it occupy the same space on the table top as it's hull? Yes, it does, because both of them are on the same space of the table (which is a 2d plane).

 

 

 

Eep - Thade -you're gonna hate me ><;

 

Couple of things.

 

Firstly- regarding putting the model on its side. You can't. Its illegal and the rules strictly prohibit it. But, when you moved your guys onto the top of your Rhino (that wasnt on its side) did you remember to take a dangerous terrain check for each individual model? Most people either forget that, or roll it as a squad and then declare instead of rolling individually.

 

Secondly - It being difficult terrain makes no difference on you climbing up it. This is the rule for Ruins. Plenty of gaming groups (Including the INAT faq- though I may be wrong about that!) do not use the vertical height measurement for anything other than Ruins. (That being said I much prefer to use it!!). How you move up is determined by how your group plays moving through difficult terrain - which could very well be straight through as the DT rules infer on pg. 14.

 

Thirdly - And this is gonna be the most important (and possibly contentious) issue.

 

Your wreck counts as "difficult and dangerous terrain and provides cover". (From Pg. 62).

 

The rules have in no way inferred or implied that the wreck that has "effectively become a piece of terrain" and now "provides cover" now operates in a manner like area terrain or in a manner that is different from the previously established rules.

 

This is a 4th ed throw back.

 

The rules do not suggest that you get a 4+ cover save for simply being on the wreck. You still use true LOS rules for firing which means if your opponent can see all of your models then you do not get a save.

If however because some models are behind the wreck or you are at an angle where some of your models are blocked by the wreck, then by all means- you get the 4+.

 

But simply being on top and getting a 4+ - thats not supported.

 

One thing to remember is that when crawling around on top of a wrecked vehicle, you also roll Dangerous terrain tests. Wrecks are both Dangerous and Difficult. Pray you don't lose your Long Fang models to rolls of 1.

Quick question on that; do you roll for the squad, and then allocate a wound, or roll for each model/model type?

 

RoV

 

Gotta roll individually because its something that happens for each model entering.

[thade]

Eep - Thade -you're gonna hate me ><;

 

Haha, when I read this, I thought "OMG he's going to go where I didn't want the OP to go. @_@" i.e., allowing models to "ride on top of the Rhino".....but you didn't. <3

 

All you wrote is how we've been playing it here (i.e. the Rhino does not become area terrain, you need models behind it to get cover) but I thought that was a house rule. Turns out I've been playing it right. I'll take it. =)

[Morticon]

Eep - Thade -you're gonna hate me ><;

 

Haha, when I read this, I thought "OMG he's going to go where I didn't want the OP to go. @_@" i.e., allowing models to "ride on top of the Rhino".....but you didn't. <3

 

All you wrote is how we've been playing it here (i.e. the Rhino does not become area terrain, you need models behind it to get cover) but I thought that was a house rule. Turns out I've been playing it right. I'll take it. =)

 

;) sanity prevails!!

 

:P

[rat of vengence]

One thing to remember is that when crawling around on top of a wrecked vehicle, you also roll Dangerous terrain tests. Wrecks are both Dangerous and Difficult. Pray you don't lose your Long Fang models to rolls of 1.

Quick question on that; do you roll for the squad, and then allocate a wound, or roll for each model/model type?

 

RoV

 

I'm pretty sure it's for each model that moved through the terrain...so it doesn't put the unit as a whole at risk if only two or three models clamber atop the thing, but you have to make an individual check for each model (separating by type is probably okay). Remember that invuln saves may be taken. =)

Hmm, I doon't think I worded that well ^_^ . What I meant, was if a squad goes through ther terrain, do you roll for each model individually (and possibly lose a heavy weapon or sergeant) or do you just roll for the number of models that went through the terrain and then take off the appropriate amount of models of your choice?

 

RoV

[SeattleDV8]

BRB pg 14 " Roll a D6 for each model......." {italics mine}

The test is not on the unit but on models, so if that special weapon trooper has moved though the dangerous terrain you can lose him.

[rat of vengence]

Thanks, missed that one for some weird reason ;)

 

RoV

[ShinyRhino]

You know, Morticon, I never thought of it that way. However, it makes perfect sense. I'll be doing it that way from now on as well.