Recent Win - is JWW too powerful?

[Hear da Lamentation]

I played the Tyranids last night (1000points.) He was experimenting with a few things, (putting stuff in reserve) - which didn't go well for him - but I managed to wipe him off the board without losing a figure ! Part of my success involved Jaws of the World Wolf - and his quite expensive shooty Carniflex.

 

So .. a quick question, because to be honest, I have to say the JWW seemed a little TOO good in this case. I just wanted to see I had used it correctly. (I have checked the FAQ)

 

My Rune Priest was in a rhino (with 9 other GH). I drove (6") close enough to the Carni and did JWW. Passed my psychic test, 24" line drawn between me and his Carni ... he has to roll 2 or below - or his Carni is removed, no wounds, no save ... nothing. Needless to say .. this is what happened.

 

As I said, his tactics were very experimental and he had left half his army in reserve (which left me to shoot the 1st half of his army to death - before the 2nd half came on ... which was then shot to death). However, it did seem to me that the JWW makes Carni's a waste of time?

 

Did I do anything wrong?

 

(I'm left with a bit of a bad feeling in my mouth, because I don't want my SW only to be remembered for a cheesy over powered "spell" ... I want them remembered for awesome missile and combat abilities :lol: )

 

What do you think of JWW? Do you have the same issue?

(Obviously I can rectify this by not using JWW - but I just wanted to see what other reactions were)

[nurglespuss]

Basically JOTWW is way too powerful, and I admit, I feel very guilty using it too!!

 

However, over time things may balance out, opponents learn to counter it, its not guaranteed (I killed 4 mairnes with it last time in the whole game).

 

I think in the SW FAQ gw might clrarify that you need to nominate a arget/have LOS whatever.

 

I don't ahve my codex with me in work, but isnt there an additional rule for monstrous creatures?

[Hear da Lamentation]

You do have to have line of sight - but I assume I had this because although I was in a rhino, the field was otherwise open. Monstrous creatures get a +1 to their save (effectively.) This meant that instead of rolling a 1 of a d6 to save, he had to roll a 1 or a 2.

 

I understand it's not overpowered for many things (for instance, his genestealers are immune) - but for the Carni, it was overpowered IMO

[Hfran Morkai]

That's the thing, most enemies you'll be facing have an initiative of three or higher so its uses become more limited but still useful. I've never used it myself so I can't determine its power without relying on the theory.

[the jeske]

dont think its overpowered , its more the fact that nids suck because of how their codex was designed[focus on MC spam in both elite and hvy support section] . If nids could build an all comers list without or few MC [or jaws did d6 wounds on MC instead of outkilling them] it would be different , it is not the case . so it aint the SW player foult that he uses a legal psychic power and remember it aint so golden as some people may think, jaws doesnt work on jump troops and does nothing to mecha etc .

[nurglespuss]

just out of interest, why were the gene-stealers immune (I've not played them in a looong time!)

 

And why do you have to have LOS? as far as I understand it, as no target is nominated, you just pick a line 24" in a straight line (only restriction being that if in vehicle, must have fire point - as is phsycic shooting attack).

[JamesI]

genestealers aren't immune. A roll of a 6 on a characteristic test is an auto-fail.

[Demogerg]

Couple of things here, No infantry/beasts/cavalry/monstrous creatures are immune, if you have an I of 6 or greater you still fail on a 6, this is explained under characteristic test in the BRB. Also, in the games I've played JotWW has been marginally usefull, the best it did for me was one game where I killed a nob with a powerclaw, a lone Grey Hunter in combat tying up a unit of boys, and a couple of boys. In every other case, other powers were more effective.

 

its very easy to counter, and most armies counter it the same way they have been countering lots of things.... loading up on vehicles and transports.

 

to the OP, it sounds like he just had some bad tactics to go with a poor strategy, along with some possible bad luck.

 

 

Really, if he is going to footslog accross the board starting in reserve is only going to hurt him (unless he is deep striking/outflanking)

[Requiemnex]

Call me crazy but a squad of obliterators with plasma cannons make pretty short work of rune priests and friends....

 

I played against a SW player last week using this... Second turn i deep striked termicide (3 terminators with combi meltas) and then deep striked obliterators right behind.... Fired the melta from the termie into the razorback blowing it to bits and then plasma cannoned the bejesus out of the rune priest and friends inside.

 

I am not chancing my 275 point daemon prince against that spell.. no way no how!

[Hear da Lamentation]

OK thanks JamesI. I was saying it about genestealers because they have an init of 6 - and you need to roll below your init on d6. I hadn't realised a 6 was an automatic failure.

 

I realise it isn't always awesome - and that it is a legitimate power (so I am not moaning at anyone who uses it) - I just think it is clearly overpowered for certain enemy types. (It's going to be fairly awesome against orks I would think ..... although I haven't tried this.) But (for me) it is clearly overpowered for use against Carnies.

 

I have self imposed a ban on using it in my games. I guess I just think that you would only choose the power when you know your enemy can be effected by it ... and when this is the case, it is too good. I don't want all my "hard as nails" space wolves tarnished by an overly powerful ability.

[JamesI]

Carnifexes are one of the situations where Jaws really shines. Init 2 at best, so still fail half the time. Perhaps as Jeske suggested it should do d6 wounds to a monsterous creature, but most monsterous creatures will have a good initiative and won't be at too much risk.

 

Perhaps the new Nid dex will fix the issue for Fexes.

[Hfran Morkai]

Perhaps the new Nid dex will fix the issue for Fexes.

 

You have no idea how scared you've just made me. Not as if initiative two for a strength ten creature that ignores armour saves isn't enough, he still gets to go before most of the stuff that does the damage to them can fight back, sure they have to pay but ouchies.

 

I've already chosen my powers and written them into my list to make it fairer on the opponent and choose living lightning and tempest's wrath so I don't need to fear cries of cheese (much!)

[DarkKnightCuron]

Just out of curiosity, how well would this work against Tau? If I recall correctly, most Tau units don't have Initiative above 3...

[JamesI]

Perhaps the new Nid dex will fix the issue for Fexes.

 

You have no idea how scared you've just made me. Not as if initiative two for a strength ten creature that ignores armour saves isn't enough, he still gets to go before most of the stuff that does the damage to them can fight back, sure they have to pay but ouchies.

 

I've already chosen my powers and written them into my list to make it fairer on the opponent and choose living lightning and tempest's wrath so I don't need to fear cries of cheese (much!)

I was thinking more in line with some psychic defense rather than a higher initiative.

[Hfran Morkai]

Ohhh...

 

I could live with that I guess. It does seem too nasty otherwise which is not good. I wanted a balanced book for a reason and I think they might have gone a bit too far, unsure though because lack of playing opportunities.

 

I think I might just have to try this with Guard, they have initiative of three and they tend to rank up...

[Niiai]

I was wondering, is it a shooting attack? You can't use it with the regular ppsycic shooting powers, right?

[avatar8481]

You played tyranids, which is one of the only armies that rightly fears JTWW, try it against mech guard and you'll be singing a different song, heck even mech marines don't care about it.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Wait until February and play the nid list again. I suspect we got a MC killing boost as nids are on the cusp and if rumors are true, Carnis will be nasty.

[Hawca]

ok to play devils advocate, nids dont like JOWW but it makes them think different about wrmy selection, and its the same nid players that put down the all MC lists that suffer most, so the ones that were called cheese now cry cheese.

 

now look at living lightning...

 

your playing guard and you can snipe and kill comand squads from any where provided you have line of sight with living lightning..

 

do i here cheese? i think not, you pay the points you play the game.

 

would that same fex be upset at T7 being rapid fired on by 2 nd rank 3rd rank fire guards men? no cos they strenght 3

 

you bring las cannons to kill tanks and bolters to kill troops and our powers are no different.

 

only difference is SW players choose the powers at list creation where are SM players choose before battle. this stops as much talyoring if you build a generic list for 1 and all

[Bartali]

Just out of curiosity, how well would this work against Tau? If I recall correctly, most Tau units don't have Initiative above 3...

 

Suits are jump infantry so I assume they're immune to it. I'd imagine Tempest Wrath or Living Lightning would be your Tau powers

[Chucku]

I've only used it in one game and it was well-needed. Stopped a Bloodcrusher unit in its' tracks (removed 3 of 4 in one fell swoop). I don't feel bad as that unit is one of the most broken in the game.

[Schertenleib]

Just out of curiosity, how well would this work against Tau? If I recall correctly, most Tau units don't have Initiative above 3...

 

Suits are jump infantry so I assume they're immune to it. I'd imagine Tempest Wrath or Living Lightning would be your Tau powers

 

The Crisis suits are Jump and therefore immune. Broadsides (which I hate with a passion) are not. The one guy I play often has pretty much abandoned his broadsides once i started fielding my Rune Priest often.

 

By the way....

 

Where does it say JOWW needs line of sight? I think I might have screwed up again.

[nurglespuss]

And why do you have to have LOS? as far as I understand it, as no target is nominated, you just pick a line 24" in a straight line (only restriction being that if in vehicle, must have fire point - as is phsycic shooting attack).

 

Thats what i asked :D!

[Skalver]

I've already chosen my powers and written them into my list to make it fairer on the opponent and choose living lightning and tempest's wrath so I don't need to fear cries of cheese (much!)

 

Umm, the rules clearly state (first paragraph of page 37) that you have to choose your psychic powers when you choose your army. If a SW player showed up without them written on his army list and wanted to choose them just before the battle after seeing my force I would tell him he was out of luck and not let him take any psychic powers at all.

 

In friendly games you can let that slide but in competitive games I will always assume the opponent knows his army list well enough that "forgetting" something like that is just a ploy to glean an unfair advantage and I would never let them away with that.

[wiplash]

no its not overpowered

 

on squads if the squad is 10 men strong (unless you are parrallel with their flank) your probably only going to hit 3/4 men in a squadit is after all an infinitely thin line not the width of a tape measure, i suppose unless they are using bike bases or 40mm bases then you might get a few more although those squads are usually smaller.

 

in the times i have used it it has only ever hit one squad and although i got lucky and killed a wraithlord once the other times i only took off one or two models.

as many people have said it is only amazing against fexes but thats the weakness of the carnifex its low initiative that doesn't make this overpowered

there is no reason for the only weakness of the fex to be "fixed" simply because 1 power which can be used by 2 HQ choices out of 10 choices in 1 codex out of 14

 

you dont need line of sight partially because it doesn't say you need it but also because it can go through tanks and terrain

if it could got hrough terrain but you can't because you cant see through terrain it that would be pointless

 

then another argument people have is that (arguably :confused:) you could take 4 RP's all with JOTWW as long as the other power was different for each one

but even then you are dedicating a 2 wound rune priest who isn't that survivable with a 24" range attack i would fear 4 wolf lords on thunderwolfs more or 4 RP's with living lightning

put 4 RP's with living lightning behind some cover or inside a tank thats up to 24 S7 attacks per turn thats wounding most models on a 2+ and many of them with out saves!!