Recent Win - is JWW too powerful?

[Hfran Morkai]

I've already chosen my powers and written them into my list to make it fairer on the opponent and choose living lightning and tempest's wrath so I don't need to fear cries of cheese (much!)

 

Umm, the rules clearly state (first paragraph of page 37) that you have to choose your psychic powers when you choose your army. If a SW player showed up without them written on his army list and wanted to choose them just before the battle after seeing my force I would tell him he was out of luck and not let him take any psychic powers at all.

 

In friendly games you can let that slide but in competitive games I will always assume the opponent knows his army list well enough that "forgetting" something like that is just a ploy to glean an unfair advantage and I would never let them away with that.

 

Well I'm doing a good thing then. It just never really mentions having them put down, I'll be careful with other people using psykers from now on...

[Crimson Devil]

I've already chosen my powers and written them into my list to make it fairer on the opponent and choose living lightning and tempest's wrath so I don't need to fear cries of cheese (much!)

 

Umm, the rules clearly state (first paragraph of page 37) that you have to choose your psychic powers when you choose your army. If a SW player showed up without them written on his army list and wanted to choose them just before the battle after seeing my force I would tell him he was out of luck and not let him take any psychic powers at all.

 

In friendly games you can let that slide but in competitive games I will always assume the opponent knows his army list well enough that "forgetting" something like that is just a ploy to glean an unfair advantage and I would never let them away with that.

 

What is the page number for the rules on denying your opponent his psychic powers? :D The SW rulebook tells you when to choose your powers, but does not cover any penalty. And what is to keep your opponent from printing up multiple lists with different powers?

[Requiemnex]

At my local store either player does not see the other players list.. They both get submitted to a ref and he overviews and then we fight.. =)

[avatar8481]

I don't feel bad as that unit [bloodcrushers] is one of the most broken in the game.

 

Bloodcrushers? Are you serious? They don't have Cavalry charge, can't deal with vehicles very well/at all, and die to dreadnaughts like it's going out of style...which they did after the Fatecrushers lists were exposed as the one-trick ponies they so very much are.

[Mammon]

I am in the "Not Overpowered" camp on JotWW.

 

Lots of the new psyker powers seen tailored to deal with different armies or targets. I always considered "Jaws" to be a terror weapon, something to make the enemy focus his fire or avoid the area with models he likes. I use this power most often against orks, their HQs have lower Initiative values at it works out great, otherwise its good for clearing nobs away but not much else. It has paid for itself in a few games were the ork warboss has suddenly found himself charging into the depths of the recently opened earth but thats it. Its a power that can be easily neutralized or avoided. Thinking in the same vein as other players, Mech Lists will laugh unless you can pop their transports, orks will laugh as they are still charging down your throat with 100+ boyz, nids will laugh after their genestealers jump you, etc etc etc. Typically however I just use it to clear up a lane of fire so I can either break up unit coherency or fire on a unit behind the one hit by Jaws to avoid giving the shielded unit cover saves. Nothing says, "Hello" like blowing a neat little hole through the boyz so your long fangs can zap the warboss with their lascannons!

[ProteanSun]

I agree on it being more of a "Terror" weapon. I played against and Nob Biker List and I managed to target 3 bikers but my opponent rolled under his initiative or I could have devastated the unit (One of the bikes he was rolling for was a painboy!).

 

Honestly Nids have little to worry about as at the vary least their initiative will go to a value of 2. If things get really out of hand we could be looking at carnifexes that make dreadnoughts look like Rock'em Sock'em Robots (Though somehow I doubt things would get THAT out of hand, or atleast I hope...)

 

I think Murderous Hurricane can be more dangerous, granted it is only strength 3 but you get 3D6 HITS, which means no roll to wound and therefore a great chance to ruin some one's day! If they take even one wound then it will definitely hurt to have that unit try to move...

[bravelybravesirrobin]

Um, you still have to roll to wound.

 

But yeah Jaws, Murderous Hurricane and Living Lightning are all great spells. Whichever you select basically depends on what you're local metagame is like;

 

play a lot of monstrous creatures - Jaws

 

play a lot of hordes - murderous hurricane

 

play a lot of mech - living lightning

 

also

 

play a lot of tau, daemons and eldar - tempests's wrath

 

 

Jaws isn't anywhere near broken. Lash isn't even broken really and Jaws has nowhere near the ability to change the game and direct the flow of battle like lash does.

 

It is however unusually good against carnie heavy tyranids, which is what you played. If you feel that gives you an unfair advantage against your friend stick to murderous hurricane (which will absolutely murder his hormogaunts and genestealers) and use living lightning to blast MC's.

[Bartali]

...you dont need line of sight partially because it doesn't say you need it but also because it can go through tanks and terrain

if it could got hrough terrain but you can't because you cant see through terrain it that would be pointless

 

I don't have the Space Wolves codex, but it's classed as a psychic shooting attack, right ?

 

pg50 of the Rulebook "...the psyker must be able to see his target"

 

I'd imagine you must be able to see an initial target, and then the line continues on from there possibly hitting targets out of los. I'd also imagine this has been debated to death somewhere by now :cuss

[wiplash]

...you dont need line of sight partially because it doesn't say you need it but also because it can go through tanks and terrain

if it could got hrough terrain but you can't because you cant see through terrain it that would be pointless

 

I don't have the Space Wolves codex, but it's classed as a psychic shooting attack, right ?

 

pg50 of the Rulebook "...the psyker must be able to see his target"

 

I'd imagine you must be able to see an initial target, and then the line continues on from there possibly hitting targets out of los. I'd also imagine this has been debated to death somewhere by now :cuss

 

yure right its probably been debated to death :cuss but i dont think it even needs a target the power just says draw a line, this line MAY pass through etc.

but otherwise a valid point which i had forgotten i thought it had to say it needed LOS for it to need it

[Chucku]

I don't feel bad as that unit [bloodcrushers] is one of the most broken in the game.

 

Bloodcrushers? Are you serious? They don't have Cavalry charge, can't deal with vehicles very well/at all, and die to dreadnaughts like it's going out of style...which they did after the Fatecrushers lists were exposed as the one-trick ponies they so very much are.

 

Bloodcrushers have little problem with vehicles, being S6 on the charge vs a common AV10 in close combat. You can tar pit them with a walker if you get the chance but 40 pts each you get a unit with Deep Strike, Eternal Warrior, Fearless, S5, T5, WS 5, A3, 3+/5i+ with power weapons and 2 wounds that Furious Charges. They are hard to match for 200 pts - their combat ability on a battle field is way more than a comparably-priced terminator unit. No, you don't want to count on them to carry your army but as a cheap assault unit that can't be ignored and is very hard to stop there are few equals.

[ProteanSun]

Um, you still have to roll to wound.

 

I am aware of that. I played against Death guard and frankly it did amazing, even though I needed 6's.

 

Also I have to agree about bloodcrushers, They get an invulnerable save, which is more that I can say for TWC, which I think is nice, but not my play style.

[bravelybravesirrobin]

Um, you still have to roll to wound.

 

I am aware of that.

 

 

you may want to edit your post in that case because you said there is no to wound roll.

[Wolf Lord Fenrir]

I think the ability isn't as bad as those who cried on the web said it would be. Has it's uses, yes, but Living Lightning is far better.

[Ominous Anonymous]

Honestly Murderous Hurricane feels more evil to me than Jaws, if only because you can use it to trick an opponent to stay in place and suffer your shooting phase rather than risk moving and losing models to failed DT tests. Works on units ranging from Ork Boyz and Gaunts to Deathwing Terminators (especially the latter as you're essentially forcing the unit to take 5 armor saves every time they move). For an all-comers Rune Priest build I'd probably take MH and Living Lightning.

[antique_nova]

The L L is just evil. unlimitied range and S7. plus chooser of the slain allows your priest to re-roll misses. But back on topic. JoTWW is by no way overpowered. It is just one amazing fluffy spell :P. ( Personally i think it's the best choice for apocolpyse ;) against anything that is not a tank ^^ )

thanks

antique_nova

[Brother Amarel]

I'd imagine you must be able to see an initial target, and then the line continues on from there possibly hitting targets out of los. I'd also imagine this has been debated to death somewhere by now :P

 

yure right its probably been debated to death ;) but i dont think it even needs a target the power just says draw a line, this line MAY pass through etc.

but otherwise a valid point which i had forgotten i thought it had to say it needed LOS for it to need it

But the core rules of a 'shooting' psychic power require an initial LoS, and JotWW doesn't override this necessity.

[Gentlemanloser]

I usually run Murderous Hurricane, finding that on paper better than JotWW.

 

So much so my opponents now hate it.

 

So I rolled out JotWW, just to give them a change. Faced the Eldar. Made my Psychic Test versus the Rune of Warding (Gah!!!! I hate those!), and promptly hit a Fortune backed Avatar with it.

 

Eldar player rolled a 6.

 

He now hates JotWW with a passion.

 

Alongside Murderous Hurricane and Tempest Wrath (the anti DS/Jump one).

[Stormbrow II]

The L L is just evil. unlimitied range and S7. plus chooser of the slain allows your priest to re-roll misses.

 

Eh, no. +1 BS for Chooser. I'm assuming that you're confusing the bird with Saga of the Beastslayer that re-rolls hits vs Walkers, MC and T5+?

 

Jaws isn't overpowered. As others have said, try it against a Mech list or even against high I armies like Eldar: it struggles to make it's mark in those games.

[slmellon]

There is no way its too powerful. It works when it works. Ive killed an Avatar with it and have killed nothing with it in a whole game. Also consider the fact that, IIRC, and im pretty sure i do, RPs cant get an INV Save. No SS, No BoRuss, No nothing. If you are within 24" of a target, that means they are within 24" of you. That means within 2 turns you are in CC with no way to defend against Power weapon attacks and the like. Use it while you can because you are not going to have that many opportunities to.

[antique_nova]

Rune priest have BS5 am i not right? and BS6 allows you to re-roll miss hits. sorry i should have worded my comment more carefully.

thanks

antique_nova

[Stormbrow II]

Rune priest have BS5 am i not right? and BS6 allows you to re-roll miss hits. sorry i should have worded my comment more carefully.

thanks

antique_nova

No. He's only BS4 and that includes Njal. The bird makes them BS5. Pity.

[JamesI]

Rune priest have BS5 am i not right? and BS6 allows you to re-roll miss hits. sorry i should have worded my comment more carefully.

thanks

antique_nova

I believe rune priests are BS 4.

 

BS 6 doesn't allow a reroll to hit the way mastercrafted would. Instead if you miss, you can roll again but need a 6 on the second roll to hit.

[Raulmichile]

I don't know how to interpret the modifier JotWW grants to Montrous Creatures. Does it makes easier or more difficult for MC to pass the test? I don't have the book with me rioght now but from memory I recall it adds 1 to the roll...

[JamesI]

It makes it easier for the MC to pass.

[Demogerg]

JotWW does not require a target or LOS, it is used in place of your one psychic shooting attack for that turn, and follows the restrictions on when you can use it, (from a fire point on a rhino moving less than 6", for example)

 

please note the wording of every other psychic shooting attack on page 37,

 

- Thunderclap, "As a psychic shooting attack" place a template, all enemy models touched take a S3 AP5 hit, this does not scatter, and does not require a target, even though you place a large blast marker.

 

- Living Lightning, "Is a psychic shooting attack" and follows all psychic shooting attack rules.

 

- Fury of the Wolf Spirits, "As a psychic shooting attack" "they are treated like a psychic shooting attack"

 

- Murderous Hurricane, "Is a psychic shooting attack" and follows all psychic shooting attack rules.

 

- Jaws of the World Wolf, "As a psychic shooting attack" trace a line, models touching the line take a test or are removed

 

if you go by the theory that no sentence should be made frivolous or redundant through interpretation, then Murderous Hurricane and Living lightning are both Psychic shooting attacks, Fury of the Wolf Spirits is used as a shooting attack, and proceeds to follow the rules like it is actually a psychic shooting attack. Finally, Thunderclap and Jaws of the World Wolf are used as shooting attacks, but they do not act like shooting attacks.