Competativeness of Wolf Cavalry list

[antique_nova]

Wolf cav lists, i think they aren't good. they do a vanilla rhino rush with more numbers and less armour and they do it alot worse. and i think cav lists are more fun that competitive at all. Your thoughts and i would love to proven wrong. but my guard are just enhacning my opinions.

thanks

antique_nova

[Jonny Wolf]

Two Packs of TWC with a pack of Fenrisian Wolves in front of them screening (giving the 4+ cover save).

 

Once the TWC hit's the enemy's lines, they're going to seriously tie up anything there. Especially (FAQ nothwithstanding) when you base each TWC on a 60mm base.

 

So, lets say two TWC packs hit the enemies lines intact (not loosing any models along the way). If they can all reach in a linear formation that is 600mm of TWC. Or 23.6 inches.

 

Further more, one melta shot can kill a Rhino. One melta shot on a TWC is a wound. Not even an instant kill.

[Ominous Anonymous]

And that's assuming you didn't give one of them a Storm Shield to block it. Completely cheesed out, you could have a TWC unit that you have to deal 13 wounds to before you start removing the expensive stuff, all but 4 of which have to get past a 3+ invuln save and 4 of which have the option of using a 2+ save:

 

5 Thunderwolves

-Storm Shield + Thunder Hammer

-Storm Shield + Melta Bomb

-Storm Shield + Bolter

-Storm Shield

-Storm Shield + Melta + Bolter

 

Wolf Lord

-Frost Blade

-Storm Shield

-Runic Armor

-2x Fenrisian Wolves

 

Wolf Lord

-Thunder Hammer

-Storm Shield

-Runic Armor

-2x Fenrisian Wolves

 

Now, at 2k this is half of your list, but someone similar could be done by using Battle Leaders and only giving half the TWC shields.

[antique_nova]

that however is 800 points. someone could probably 5 leman russ demolishers for that and that unit is very vulnerable to lashes. becauses it's small and will have little backup except wolves in 1000-1500 point games. TW cav are quiet vulnerable to S5 weapon spams. like guard and the screen only works if you can get past through the opponents weak units and engage their AP weapon wielding units. if not then your TWC are quiet useless even with storm shields.

hope i am being too bash like.

thanks

antique_nova

[DanTheManGum]

that however is 800 points. someone could probably 5 leman russ demolishers for that and that unit is very vulnerable to lashes. becauses it's small and will have little backup except wolves in 1000-1500 point games. TW cav are quiet vulnerable to S5 weapon spams. like guard and the screen only works if you can get past through the opponents weak units and engage their AP weapon wielding units. if not then your TWC are quiet useless even with storm shields.

hope i am being too bash like.

thanks

antique_nova

 

I played them this weekend as a 600 point unit (WL as usual +talisman, 4x SS, 1x bomb, 1x MotW, 1x norm, 1x TH). They performed amazingly well. They took fire from EVERYTHING on the table for a turn before taking out 2 oblits, 2 lash princes, 2 full squads of plauge marines, and a defiler (not in a turn obviously) and the lord was STILL alive at the end of the game. Lash is quite easy to get around when you consider I had a rune priest. So after passing his psychic test, me failing to roll a 4+, me failing to roll a 5+, and him getting a quite successful roll on his 2d6 (6" move, d6" run, and 12" charge) moving my cavalry away wasnt exactly easy to do. This was a 2250 game but I would play them in 1750 and maybe 1500 (may drop a cav member). In my second game 3 of them went down to 3 attacks from a dreadnought and all 3 failed their invuln saves. This left me with TH/SS & my lord. Even with that I killed the dreadnought, 4 powerfist termies, 1 PW termie, and a TH/SS termie before falling to Manny and the remaining TH/SS termies. In my second game admittedly they didnt take down nearly their points but they still took those extremely hard hitting units away from my other squads. This was a planetstrike tournament first game being attacker (which had night fight the entire game) second being a defender (which I kept everything in reserve for). I plan to play them in a upcoming 1750 tournament and see how well they do then. They might perform differently for you or everyone else but I love them and plan to play them.

[Jonny Wolf]

Antique - seriously? "Quite useless"?

 

I ran two packs of:

 

1x Frost Blade and Storm Shield, 4x TWC standard this past weekend. Two defilers, 3man Oblit and a squad of choas terminators...

 

Again, if one pack hits the enemy intact, you're looking at 24 attacks on a charge at strenght 5 with rending. 4 Base, +1 for Bolt Pistol, +1 Charge x 4 TWC

and an additional 5 strength 6 attacks from the frost blade. They're devastating.

 

But, you're opinion, your army. Test em out a bit first brother.

[Ominous Anonymous]

Quick question while we're at it: Saga of the Bear or Saga of the Warrior Born for a Lord? Bear gives you some insurance against S10 hits but Warrior Born can do some crazy stuff like 10+ Thunder Hammer attacks from a single model. I'm personally leaning Warrior Born (especially since Battle Leaders can take it) but I just wanted some opinions.

 

that however is 800 points. someone could probably 5 leman russ demolishers for that and that unit is very vulnerable to lashes. becauses it's small and will have little backup except wolves in 1000-1500 point games. TW cav are quiet vulnerable to S5 weapon spams. like guard and the screen only works if you can get past through the opponents weak units and engage their AP weapon wielding units. if not then your TWC are quiet useless even with storm shields.

hope i am being too bash like.

thanks

antique_nova

 

Not at all, I appreciate any criticism. However, there are a few things I will contend with (respectfully of course).

 

The first thing is the five demolishers. Lets say you shelled out the 825pts (without upgrades) to pay for 1 and 2/3rds of a squadron, you've already used up that much shooting just to deal with the TWC and as far as I'm concerned the Cav have already done their job, allowing my rhinos to move forward, taking fire away from my Long Fangs, etc. Secondly, even if you rolled all hits, if I've played it smart and kept my 60mm base unit 2" away from each other, then you will only done 5 wounds, all of which can be blocked with an invuln save or even dropped on a Bear'd Lord for safety. Lastly, your power comes at a price: range. The Demolisher variant uses a short barrel at ends where the hull of the Russ begins and has a range of two feet. That's on the tail end of the TWC assault range, but you are more likely to be out of or well within range than just barely reaching, and if I'm within range then so're you, and I've got lots of S10 attacks. :D

 

The prince is not as easy to deal with, though I do have some insurance with a Wolf Tail Talisman and a Rune Priest. This is all just theoryhammer, though.

[Requiemnex]

Since we are talking chaos here........

 

 

Lets be frank.. If people are running lash lists you are talking the ability to field 9 obliterators or 6 obliterators and a vindi..

 

one word... Splat.. Plasma cannons and demolisher cannons.. I dont care who you are invul save or not you are rolling too many dice to not die.

 

2 wounds per a model is nice and toughness 5 is great (lucky too considering its base)

 

Some chaos cheddar lists i have seen are flamercide (three deepstriking terminators 2 w/ flamer 1 heavy flamer) with 3 oblits and two vindicators.. all that for 600 pts.... Throw in two lash princes at 155 a pop... talking 900.. can get two skimpy troop choices for 150 for two. I would toss a demolisher template on them and sacrafice the vindi so i could fire next turn with another vindi + 3 plasma cannons or even deep striked 6 shots with rapid fire plasma..

 

at what 50 pts a model + gear.... A single obliterator could kill a model a turn and nearly make its points back. This is a questionable alternative to a landraider full of clawed termies.

[Ominous Anonymous]

Yea, well my dad could beat up your dad.

[Requiemnex]

*Tear* your dad actually killed my dad......

 

Russ... Perturabo....

 

 

Way to rub some salt in my wounds.. =/

[thade]

I'm excited to try Wolf Calv, but I'm sheepishly (or perhaps not sheepishly with all the models ready for painting on my desk) waiting for the second wave when they release models for them. I think the very idea is awesome and I can't wait to try it.

 

*Tear* your dad actually killed my dad......

 

Russ... Perturabo....

 

 

Way to rub some salt in my wounds.. =/

 

I enjoyed reading this exchange. =) Well played.

[DanTheManGum]

Since we are talking chaos here........

 

 

Lets be frank.. If people are running lash lists you are talking the ability to field 9 obliterators or 6 obliterators and a vindi..

 

one word... Splat.. Plasma cannons and demolisher cannons.. I dont care who you are invul save or not you are rolling too many dice to not die.

 

2 wounds per a model is nice and toughness 5 is great (lucky too considering its base)

 

Some chaos cheddar lists i have seen are flamercide (three deepstriking terminators 2 w/ flamer 1 heavy flamer) with 3 oblits and two vindicators.. all that for 600 pts.... Throw in two lash princes at 155 a pop... talking 900.. can get two skimpy troop choices for 150 for two. I would toss a demolisher template on them and sacrafice the vindi so i could fire next turn with another vindi + 3 plasma cannons or even deep striked 6 shots with rapid fire plasma..

 

at what 50 pts a model + gear.... A single obliterator could kill a model a turn and nearly make its points back. This is a questionable alternative to a landraider full of clawed termies.

 

How is a single obliterator killing a Cav member a turn? Your 6+ oblits and vindi wound probably 15 models max each turn. Thats if you dont scatter, dont roll get hot, and wound everytime. Thats hitting 2 models with each plasma cannon, and 3 models with the vindi (which instadeath). Barring a single 3+ save (from the storm shields they should be carrying) or a 4+ from cover. And that they arent already in combat which would probably only be turn one (I know you have lash but as I've pointed out earlier it is hard to pull off against the unit I use). Cav are pretty good against just about anything too... vindi's not so much (personal opinion). Try them out Nova and see how they perform against an assortment of lists (maybe some eldar, marines, and chaos). That should give you an idea of how well they perform; or dont.

 

EDIT: Ahhh rapid fire plasma. Still there is wound allocation inside that squad so if your facing a SINGLE model then your fine otherwise not so much.

[avatar8481]

They're essentially TH/SS terminators in a Landraider...too expensive to take in games of less than 1750 points and still have an effective unit and an effective list. They're a little better since they're cheaper and aren't as vulnerable to first turn drop-podding sternguard/dread nonsense. Still though, tactically it's like TH/SS, at small points levels either they'll dominate and win the game for you or they'll lose the game for you by being too expensive and not effective. It's a gamble that balanced lists won't make until you get to about 2000 points.

[Ominous Anonymous]

*Tear* your dad actually killed my dad......

 

Russ... Perturabo....

 

 

Way to rub some salt in my wounds.. =/

 

I don't play Space Wolves mate, I just use their rules. :(

 

But really, yea you can theorycraft tabling me by turn 2, but reality most of the time has other things in mind. I could stay in combat all game and prevent any such shooting or psychic power, I could make horrible Fleet rolls and be stuck hoping for a 12" charge. The Wolf screen could fall back on the first turn and leave me open to shooting, etc. There's a lot of ways for it to turn out badly or even neutrally for either side. What's unarguable is the potential of both sides with their 'cheese' units or whathaveyou to do some serious damage.

[Stormbrow II]

I was wondering just how effective this unit could be and when taken with minimum equipment and you max out on the models then they perform well - don't bother with a SS, just try to use cover and wound allocation to allow your S10 guy to get there in one piece and let the fun begin.

 

I used 3 Iron Priests with 4 Cyberwolves each in a game against Nids yesterday and they performed very well - having T5 was nice against I5 gaunts that struggled to hurt me in combat and as I was able to allocate hits against the wolves the Priests were kept alive long enough to use their S8/9 attacks and swing combats back my way.

 

I used them because I wanted to try and see whether they could perform as well as TWC in a game. They can't: TWC are simply better for the points. 8 TWC in 2 units of 4 with 2 fists costs 430 which is actually cheaper than the 3 Iron Priests which is strange because they're better.

[maligncomedy]

Quick question while we're at it: Saga of the Bear or Saga of the Warrior Born for a Lord? Bear gives you some insurance against S10 hits but Warrior Born can do some crazy stuff like 10+ Thunder Hammer attacks from a single model. I'm personally leaning Warrior Born (especially since Battle Leaders can take it) but I just wanted some opinions.

 

Might be a good idea to point out: Force Weapons. Khan. Sicarius. Inquisitor's Force Weapons depending on how they are ruled for the match. Any number of things can one shot kill. A simple librarian can ruin your day.

[Valerian]

Quick question while we're at it: Saga of the Bear or Saga of the Warrior Born for a Lord? Bear gives you some insurance against S10 hits but Warrior Born can do some crazy stuff like 10+ Thunder Hammer attacks from a single model. I'm personally leaning Warrior Born (especially since Battle Leaders can take it) but I just wanted some opinions.

 

Might be a good idea to point out: Force Weapons. Khan. Sicarius. Inquisitor's Force Weapons depending on how they are ruled for the match. Any number of things can one shot kill. A simple librarian can ruin your day.

 

Here's my take on it- there are quite a few things in the game that are S10 and/or can Insta-kill your Thunderwolf Lord. However, that being said, there aren't that many in each individual army list, and probably not many at all in any given enemy force that you will be facing in a given game. Additionally, the Cavalry Lord has excellent tactical mobility and can often chose his battles. Therefore, it is not essential that you have SotB, and you could certainly go with SotWB if you prefer.

 

V

[Ominous Anonymous]

Quick question while we're at it: Saga of the Bear or Saga of the Warrior Born for a Lord? Bear gives you some insurance against S10 hits but Warrior Born can do some crazy stuff like 10+ Thunder Hammer attacks from a single model. I'm personally leaning Warrior Born (especially since Battle Leaders can take it) but I just wanted some opinions.

 

Might be a good idea to point out: Force Weapons. Khan. Sicarius. Inquisitor's Force Weapons depending on how they are ruled for the match. Any number of things can one shot kill. A simple librarian can ruin your day.

 

Here's my take on it- there are quite a few things in the game that are S10 and/or can Insta-kill your Thunderwolf Lord. However, that being said, there aren't that many in each individual army list, and probably not many at all in any given enemy force that you will be facing in a given game. Additionally, the Cavalry Lord has excellent tactical mobility and can often chose his battles. Therefore, it is not essential that you have SotB, and you could certainly go with SotWB if you prefer.

 

V

 

At the very least it's convenient that both Sagas cost the same, so one could experiment back and forth. I'm leaning more heavily towards Warrior Born now, if only because it helps justify wasting the Lord's I5.

[antique_nova]

Response to comments

well yes i do find them useless. if you play your army right ( against TWC ) sure your all talking about your wolf screening and how much your guys are chewing up all bits and pieces ( DP and so on ) till their is nothing else. and that your guys are surviving X amount of firepower. But how many of those games have you faced properly equipted and quiet skilled players?

 

I mean, sometimes you win because you are better than your opponent, who has less experience than you and a list not as competitive and balanced as yours. However, it doesn't mean they are good ( your list, specific units ) it just means you can beat an opponent of that level of skill.

 

Explaining why i don't believe it works.

I'll also quote myself from another thread.

 

cav lists can be baited by horde with a cheap row of men at the front to give you something to bite into ( sure you kill whatever you meet, but the first row you bite is something that i am willing to lose and won't affect my game plan ) and then use the second row of men to AP and shoot you to death. No cav tactic can stop it. none. not even screening. because any sensible person will shoot your screening ( fenrisian wolves in this case ) first and then shoot your thunderwolves after your shield is dead.

Also mech lists can do this very well using vehicles to bait you into the first wave.

 

Summary of quote

What happens if you take the bait

 

( I am assuming that you will charge by the 2nd - 3rd turn )

What i am saying here is. Your wolves may kill, or will kill. whatever they touch. but i would use that against you by sending up a cheap unit or units for you to bite on the front line ( Which will happen in the deployment phase ). Once you finished wiping them out completely, which you will most certainly do*, all i need to do is to send in my proper units that can either:

 

* But if you manage to tie the units up for a few turns, one of the following will still happen

 

Move up with or without a transport and use your CC elites to pick you off before you can do a thing.

 

Or with guardsmen or any other race, just move up and fire on your shield wolves with the anti-horde parts of my army like heavy flamers and lasguns, rapid fire etc. Then just shoot my AP1-2 weapons at your TWC. Not that hard, and a good opponent will usually bring enough AP weapons to garantee death unless the dice gods disagree.

 

 

What happens if you survive though and the bait you took doesn't spring the trap?

 

If you have by some miracle, or the dice love you, survive. then their really isn't much left for you to use from your Cavalry wave. If you happen to have more than just a fw guys left and units ( lets say 50% of your original cavalry wave ), then an experienced opponent will either have one or more of these advantages:

 

There anti-horde units will be infront of their anti-MC/terminator. shooty units. Like guardsmen platoons infront of chiemras with plasma. melta guys. That will force you do repeat the trap that your sprung again.

 

Or if they are left out in the open, if they are in a vehicle. then you will have to destroy their transport before even getting near them. I doubt that a exploding result will do much if you get it either.

 

Or if they are out in the open and with no transport. Then you will most likely be charging their near full strenght CC units, or other units while ignoring their dangerous CC or shooty units, with your units which are battered from the storm of AP and anti-horde fire or you left without much as your untis were picked off.

 

Why does the tactic work though?

This trap works so succesfully, because of a few reasons, with properly equipped and experienced opponents. On the fact that that you can't sweep and advance that far. So that they not have to move out of their starting position/formation and risked being picked off should their counter attack fail and can not kill enough of your wolves.

 

Phew........ This thread is hot ;). keep it going guys! ( Also try to keep the flame down and i will do the same )

 

EDIT: who are you replying to Ominous Anonymous with your latest comment?

 

thanks

antique_nova

[Ominous Anonymous]

And, again, my dad could beat up your day. We could speculate how your anti-MEQ guys are able to kill my TWC before they charge, but are tied up by Fenrisian Wolves being used as a screen, and they are in turn killed by Frag Missiles, and...

 

But I will say this: Nob Bikerz, though different in playstyle, have worked despite the sheer amount of mental posturing on how to beat them. TWC aren't invincible, but this is getting ridiculous.

[Jonny Wolf]

Antique. Well stated, but going of your original thesis:

 

"Wolf cav lists, i think they aren't good. they do a vanilla rhino rush with more numbers and less armour and they do it alot worse. and i think cav lists are more fun that competitive at all."

 

Vanilla Rhino Rush: Vanilla marines in a Rhino can move 12", get out and shoot. That's it.

 

TWC - Move 6", could up to 6" and assault 12", etc, as discussed.

 

Just utterly different play styles I would argue. But to discount them off hand...

[Stormbrow II]

Ominous has it right.

 

Antique is assuming too much - like what other units people have in their list; the fact we don't all use wolf screens; that we are easily lured into unfavourable combats and that we all travel without support for the TWC units.

 

Wound allocation is very handy for them and helps to keep them alive that bit longer. Let's not forget they can wreck MEQ lists even if they do only hit on 6's against fast stuff through their sheer number of attacks.

[Gentlemanloser]

Fenrisian Wolves suck. And you can't screen with them.

 

That aside, the Cavalry rock! But, it's deceptive. They aren't actually that killy a unit. It's all about delivery.

 

Get a Squad of 5, no weapon upgrades and give them all Storm Shields. Expensive, coming out to cost the same as a squad of 10 TH/SS terminators.

 

But, their job is only to provide Ablative Wounds for the real killer.

 

 

That's a Wolf Lord on a TWM with Warrior Born.

 

Load this guy out with as much as you can spare. 2 Wolves minimum (to soak Power Fist/MC hits in CC due to his IC status). Lose the Rending and give him a Weapon of some kind.

 

Either a Belt of Russ (for the extra attack from BP and WC/FB) or Storm Shield.

 

It's this guy that kills, and my god is he good at it. Don't take Wolfkin anywhere in your army if you do give him wolves, you want him to hit first, always, to rack up as many extra attacks as possible.

 

A unit like this, starts to influence how your opponent plays, how they deploy, and what they target. It gives so much more freedom to the rest of your list, while being quite durable (more so than 10 TH/SS Termies), fast, and killy.

 

Sunday I faced off versus a 2K 'nilla Marine list, and while I lost a single TWC in the turn closing with my opponent (Combnation of Las/Las Pred, Plasma Cannon, Thunderfire and a couple of Krak Missiles, and whatever bolterfire was in range) the unit killed 2 full Tac Squads, a 10 Man Assault Squad and Shrike. Leaving only the attached Chaplain alive at the end (who luckily took the last wound off of the WL).

 

The WL (Decked out in SS and a WC) routinely got up to 10 attacks each round (starting with a not too shabby 6 on the charge) and was the focus of all the "ZOMG Cheese" comments from the guys I play with.

 

On the whole, TWC aren't that great. But they make the best delivery system for a decked out WL. :P

[Jonny Wolf]

Why can't you screen with a fenrisian wolf?

[Gentlemanloser]

They get shot first. By anything. Die from beng looked at, and run off the board without being able to regroup.

 

Then your opponent just fires what's left at the TWC.

 

T4, 6+ Save and Ld5 makes them utterly worthless unless you attach SW IC to them. Which either loses him his T5, or he's not on a TWM which ruins their speed.

 

Save the 40 points and get another TWC. :P Or two SS for your TWC. ;)