Competativeness of Wolf Cavalry list

[Jonny Wolf]

So....they can screen.

 

By turn two (especially if you're able to get first turn), you're TWC will hit the enemy lines...ergo, they've served their purpose as a 4+ cover save...

 

Perhaps it's just a different interpretation on what 'screen' means, brother :P

[Gentlemanloser]

I take screening as providing a Cover save for another unit, as they're shot through.

 

If your opponent does that, they're being, silly. :P

 

Shoot the Wolves first, with something. Anything really. You'll kill/break the screen, and then the TWC behind won't get any 4+ Cover Saves.

 

Sure, you can try to spin it that the 'screen' saved you from a unit shooting at the Cavalry. But usually it would be something that wouldn't be shot at, or really have a good chance of killing, your TWC anyway.

 

And for a 40+point single unit screen, I'd rather by more TWc, or SS for the Cavalry. ;)

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

i love my TWC, if only for the diversions they create.

their ability to scoot across the board to hot spots and support my GH, they are one of the best counter-attack units i have ever seen.

 

i have used only a 2 man unit, accompanied by a WL so far, but have: rended a Ironclad dreadnought, blowing it skyhigh. broken the back of a Imperial Fist gun line (stationary pred/razorbacks and a good fleet move and large base size mean many dead tanks)used a single TWC to take and break a few BA combat squads, took down a DP in assault...not alot of experience using them yet, but already got space in any 1500pt list i create.

 

WLK

[Jonny Wolf]

Obviously I don't spread my wolves out to the 50" lol, but as a screen they are awesome.

 

I've gotten across the board mostly unscathed and then let two full packs of TWC go ape shizz, while my Rhino's come trundling up behind lol.

[Niiai]

I think some of the problem with TWC is that once they get shot at they are not very good. I mean, shure they have 6 rending attacks withouth upgrades, but 3 greyhunters have 9 attacks and more HP. But the TWC have the reach, and they are a threath. You can hovever not use it to race acros the map because then you use your points to reach the oponent, while the oponent uses his points to buy better mellee weapons one you actualy reach his line.

 

TWC, IMHO, should be used as a counter or as a threath. Cavalary is insane, and with 2 TWC you have 10 attacks, that can, move, run and charge, up to a potensial 24". That is FAAAAR. True the regular wolves can do that as well with I5, but TWC can load up on better weaponds and more DMG.

 

I looooove the TWC thematicaly, but I cnat use it in a 1000 point army. (I do use wolfs.)

[antique_nova]

Ominous has it right.

 

Antique is assuming too much - like what other units people have in their list; the fact we don't all use wolf screens; that we are easily lured into unfavourable combats and that we all travel without support for the TWC units.

 

Wound allocation is very handy for them and helps to keep them alive that bit longer. Let's not forget they can wreck MEQ lists even if they do only hit on 6's against fast stuff through their sheer number of attacks.

I am not assuming too much. it is what happens and continues to happen whenever i see them played. even if you don't do a full cav list. the anti-tank and AP weaponary or High strenght weaponary. anytihng that isn't anti-horde. can be directed at any rhino/raider rush. you can be lured into unfavrouable combat, well it is easier said than done to lure you inot such things, if you play an opponent who uses the terrain and his numbers to his advantage. with other heavy elites and smaller armies they will ahve a tough time.

 

I will do a type up of how good they are against lsits that can't do the tatic that i have discribed in my earlier comment.

 

thanks

antique_nova

[Wispy]

And, again, my dad could beat up your day. We could speculate how your anti-MEQ guys are able to kill my TWC before they charge, but are tied up by Fenrisian Wolves being used as a screen, and they are in turn killed by Frag Missiles, and...

 

But I will say this: Nob Bikerz, though different in playstyle, have worked despite the sheer amount of mental posturing on how to beat them. TWC aren't invincible, but this is getting ridiculous.

this is exactly what I think everytime Nova posts.

 

TWC, aside, I have another three quarters of an army you have to contend with. When fire is focused on them, I find more often then not, the Wolf Lord manages to reach assault anyways and mops up. If not, well, the rest of my army is still standing after the ridiculous amount of fire power directed elsewhere, and they are the ones to mop up.

[Jonny Wolf]

I'm out.

[antique_nova]

And, again, my dad could beat up your day. We could speculate how your anti-MEQ guys are able to kill my TWC before they charge, but are tied up by Fenrisian Wolves being used as a screen, and they are in turn killed by Frag Missiles, and...

 

But I will say this: Nob Bikerz, though different in playstyle, have worked despite the sheer amount of mental posturing on how to beat them. TWC aren't invincible, but this is getting ridiculous.

this is exactly what I think everytime Nova posts.

 

TWC, aside, I have another three quarters of an army you have to contend with. When fire is focused on them, I find more often then not, the Wolf Lord manages to reach assault anyways and mops up. If not, well, the rest of my army is still standing after the ridiculous amount of fire power directed elsewhere, and they are the ones to mop up.

your completely ignoring my point here, i said you will assualt and will kill my guys.

What i am saying is that you will most certainly wipe out what you touch.

So what if you wipe out my first wave? it will be most likely be the wave that i don't really care loosing, e.g. the expendable wave. What will you do then? when your within rapid fire range, and/or assualt range of the real hitters of my army? because you can't assault them if they were behind my first wave that you annihilated.

 

Nob bikers are hilarious, very fun to play however in one off games, they are very very bad and easy to beat with balanced lists. Just grab AP weaponary, a few expendable waves of men to stay behind and some S8+ pie paltes and your done. or stealers or a ten man LC terminator squad.

 

EDIT: lol jonny wolf i see you came back for one more comment :), i am a templar player as well :), so i do tend to get over zealous ^^. Im cool:P. Although sometimes the place heats up when people ignore your points and continue with with their views even when you have responded to them.

Hopefully the flame rises no higher than it is now.

 

thanks

antique_nova

[Jonny Wolf]

Keep it friendly brothers, keep it friendly...

 

This isn't some Black Templar shrine...have an ale and cool off or I'll have Brother Bran have t you with the extermanatassock! :)

[Nightrunner]

your completely ignoring my point here, i said you will assualt and will kill my guys.

What i am saying is that you will most certainly wipe out what you touch.

So what if you wipe out my first wave? it will be most likely be the wave that i don't really care loosing, e.g. the expendable wave. What will you do then? when your within rapid fire range, and/or assualt range of the real hitters of my army? because you can't assault them if they were behind my first wave that you annihilated.

 

All of this seems to imply an entire army of TWC - of course, you are going to wipe that out with shielding units. However, with the movement TWC have, you should always be able to choose your target. And even if they are just serving as a firepower magnet for the rest of the army ot advance unmolested? that's fine.

 

Nob bikers are hilarious, very fun to play however in one off games, they are very very bad and easy to beat with balanced lists. Just grab AP weaponary, a few expendable waves of men to stay behind and some S8+ pie paltes and your done. or stealers or a ten man LC terminator squad.

 

You see, Antique, the point is that Nob bikers arent that easy to beat with "balanced" lists. You've quoted 10-man LC terminators- who in their right mind takes 10 termies with just LC's, and as an Ork player, why on earth would I charge that with my Bikes, which are far, far more speedy>

 

I agree with the above post; you concentrate too much upon the perfect list, that every opponent would bring to counter your unit. For a tournament, most players DO bring a balnaced list, with the aim that it can counter most things. Most don't have the killer unit to counter TWC; it will come down to whether or not your tactics and luck are sound.

 

NR :lol:

[antique_nova]

All of this seems to imply an entire army of TWC - of course, you are going to wipe that out with shielding units. However, with the movement TWC have, you should always be able to choose your target. And even if they are just serving as a firepower magnet for the rest of the army ot advance unmolested? that's fine.

Read post 19. I am talking about the cavalry army in general with wolf screens and not just talking about an entire army of TWC. If the expendible units are positioned correctly. then there is nno way your TWC can pick off my units behind them at will.

 

You see, Antique, the point is that Nob bikers arent that easy to beat with "balanced" lists. You've quoted 10-man LC terminators- who in their right mind takes 10 termies with just LC's, and as an Ork player, why on earth would I charge that with my Bikes, which are far, far more speedy>

They are, i would if i knew i was going against the. Why not charge? I would charge a squad with power weapons and fists etc, even a vindicator would do or a demolisher russ, fire prism etc. Because you would eventually be unable to cope with so many saves that negate your FNP.

 

I agree with the above post; you concentrate too much upon the perfect list, that every opponent would bring to counter your unit. For a tournament, most players DO bring a balnaced list, with the aim that it can counter most things. Most don't have the killer unit to counter TWC; it will come down to whether or not your tactics and luck are sound.

 

Too much? Perfect list? There is no such thing. I have been saying experienced players, balanced lists etc. Not every opponent. Plus you don't need units to counter specific threats like nob bikers. They just need to be anti-armour unit/squad or a anti-tank squad etc. You also don't need a killer unit, a cost effective one that can dish out a reasonable amount of pain for a reasonable price in good enough.

 

While i agree with you on the last line, well half of it, however most games reguardless of missions, set up, dice roll and luck are almost almost an automatic win for those who have more a balanced and/or competitive list.

For example, IG with lots of infantry platoons and command squads to support them and 9 vendettas, will most likely stop Nidzilla. This is because IG in this case is more competitive and maybe more balancede. It isn't the best example, but it helps to get my points across.

 

thanks

antique_nova

[Ominous Anonymous]

Saying and doing are another matter, though, but I say this to both sides. I wouldn't be surprised if we see a Cav list do very well at the next major tournament.

[Jonny Wolf]

Agreed.

[antique_nova]

Well let's wait and see what happens next year, when i start my first GT :D. I'll look out for cav lists especially ^^.

[Jonny Wolf]

Hey brother,

good luck with the GT. No hard feelings. Sometimes the Fang gets heated around here, lol.

 

Have an ale and go beat up some Blood Claws...you'll feel much better! lol

[dublindawg]

What I find interesting is that all this talk is about how to beat a single unit in a battle. When you're in a tourney, you don't know who you will face or what their army list is. So you have to make a 'balanced' list to face any number of possibilities. To banter on how you will defend against the TWC with this or that won't always work against a different type of army in a tourney and you will probably end up with egg on your face.

 

It all comes down to who is better at reading the table and making the right decisions that wins the battle, not some uber unit.

[antique_nova]

uber army you mean :P lol, everyone heating up.hmmm i sense another whelp brawl somewhere :P. SW BRAWL! :D

thanks

antique_nova

[Ominous Anonymous]

Who knows? Maybe the leafblower IG list from a few months back will be more than capable of dealing with Cav, or perhaps Blood Angels will gain some new rules that makes them threatening (army-wide Furious Charge, maybe?), etc.

[Godhead]

I see all these ways to beat down the TWC, but what about the GH in the army who in their own right are pretty darn good (and scoring I might add). You are talking about setting up a speed bump to get mulched by the TWC and then bombing them. What happens when a dread or Wolf scouts are dumped into this uber pie plating gunline of ap death that you are talking about? Or even better those melta gun wielding GH's pod down on you and start laying into those weapons.

 

You MUST deal with those threats, by the time you do, you may have missed out on those oh so valuable shots at the TWC and they are in your lines eating your face because of their speed. Also, even though you cannot consolidate into cc anymore, the TWC is fast enough to move from combat to combat, minimizing the number of shots you get to take at them. What about multiple charges tieing up more than one unit? So yes while they are not invincible, they are pretty stout. And as always even the units that may be lacking can have varying degrees of success depending upon army composition and tactics. I don't think you can honestly tell me nob bikers and blood crushers are not hard units to deal with, the TWC will be no different. They are viable and have their uses in a "Balanced" list.

[Nightrunner]

Read post 19. I am talking about the cavalry army in general with wolf screens and not just talking about an entire army of TWC. If the expendible units are positioned correctly. then there is nno way your TWC can pick off my units behind them at will.

 

Then obviously, the rest of my army is being completely wasted, giving that TWC unit no choice but to charge your screen. Seriously, at even 1500pts, you can provide enough firepower to take out screening units. Or you move the TWC. They have a 19-24" charge. That is a lot of distance.

 

They are, i would if i knew i was going against them. Why not charge? I would charge a squad with power weapons and fists etc, even a vindicator would do or a demolisher russ, fire prism etc. Because you would eventually be unable to cope with so many saves that negate your FNP.

 

Once again, in an ork list, if you have Nob bikers, they need supporting, OR they pose as the ultimate distraction - they are all but immune to low-Ap weaponry when boosting, and I can't see that changing.

 

The point I was making was that in a balanced list, most opponents won't have something ready-made to counter a full unit of TWC. 10 LC termies is mean, but it isnt balanced, and even I would be surprised to see that on the table.

 

Too much? Perfect list? There is no such thing. I have been saying experienced players, balanced lists etc. Not every opponent. Plus you don't need units to counter specific threats like nob bikers. They just need to be anti-armour unit/squad or a anti-tank squad etc. You also don't need a killer unit, a cost effective one that can dish out a reasonable amount of pain for a reasonable price in good enough.

 

While i agree with you on the last line, well half of it, however most games reguardless of missions, set up, dice roll and luck are almost almost an automatic win for those who have more a balanced and/or competitive list.

 

First; One anti-tank unit? Won't cut it. Otherwise, they wouldn't be the unit of fame that they are today.

 

Second; So the skill of the player means nothing?

 

Sure, some lists will be totally outmatched, but that generally falls to one list being too tailored or specialist. Quite simply, I can think of Dezartfox from the Dark Angels forum's reports from this year's GT, heat 2; he faced DE with his deathwing, which featured 2 LR's. Quite simply, his specialised list was outmatched.

 

However, a balanced list (thinking of your GT ambitions) would have some element of everything, but then factors like the mission, who goes first, reserve rolls - sorry, but to just say those don't matter? I'm just wondering about the level of gamers that you usually play against.

 

Where I am, those things matter, and at GT level, a lot of players will have a very different game plan depending on the fall of the first turn.

 

A full unit of TWC will give you an interesting tactical choice; they are solid in CC, fast, and most importantly resilient. If you support them correctly, they can be a useful unit; hell, use them as a counter-attack unit if needed. Charging the first target you get? Not the best idea.

 

But then, if you think they don't work, don't use them. If you truly believe that they are a waste of points, then no amount of posting on the internet will change your mind. Actually try some games with them, report back on how well you do with them - that would be a useful comparison to what you consider a competitive list.

 

Bar that, I can't really think of anything else to convince you, if you are still sure that TWC are ineffective.

 

NR :nuke:

[antique_nova]

and i doubt that i can make you change your mind as well. we both have stubborn views of the TWC. cavalry have a charge range of 12-18. 6 for moving and 12 for charging. not the 18-24 your on about. plus TWC don't have fleet

 

First; One anti-tank unit? Won't cut it. Otherwise, they wouldn't be the unit of fame that they are today.

I said they need to be an anti-tank unit. meaning several units.

 

Second; So the skill of the player means nothing?

Not if one list heavily out ways another in terms of competitiveness and a balanced list and terrain etc.

 

However, a balanced list (thinking of your GT ambitions) would have some element of everything, but then factors like the mission, who goes first, reserve rolls - sorry, but to just say those don't matter? I'm just wondering about the level of gamers that you usually play against.

If you remember, i said a list that heavily outways another, or in other words, others factors become quiet irrelevant. If a balanced list is involved and the lists are not so extremely far apart in terms of being competitive. Then all other factors like missions, turns and reserve are just as important as the game and lists.

 

I tend to play against competitive players, i play against the best whenever i can if the time allows, but i do come across some very copy and paste lists and gun line lists ( not occasionally ) which are owned by over confident and self boasting players, which i have to bash down with my list, that isn't tailored. of course i don't boast to them and i impose sportsmanship on them, shaking hands etc. which always helps.

 

Where I am, those things matter, and at GT level, a lot of players will have a very different game plan depending on the fall of the first turn.

I tend to plan for disasters or anything that doesn't go with plan A. So that i know what to do should the situation arises. i don't plan against specific units and events. like if a TWC breaks my line and causes mayhem. but like what happens if i lose certain key units that could affect the game. How best to deploy if i expect not to get first turn. how to deply against gun liners, fast assualt armies and other builds.

 

A full unit of TWC will give you an interesting tactical choice; they are solid in CC, fast, and most importantly resilient. If you support them correctly, they can be a useful unit; hell, use them as a counter-attack unit if needed. Charging the first target you get?

Not the best idea. Agreed, but sometimes leaving them till later can just make them sitting ducks as the enemy has one less threat to deal with in that turn. again this goes to how units are supported etc.

 

But then, if you think they don't work, don't use them. If you truly believe that they are a waste of points, then no amount of posting on the internet will change your mind. Actually try some games with them, report back on how well you do with them - that would be a useful comparison to what you consider a competitive list.

I have tried many ideas like wolf screening, raider screening ( not all ideas i come up with are good ^^, but i like to try them out ). Scout flanking with wolf screening. I have one last idea. rhino screening, which i am still waiting to try against a competitive player.

 

Godhead, i cannot explain everything at once, because of a few reasons. not everyone and very few people can picture a battle plan of this would do this and that unit would do that without bringing in argument of saying but what if i drop in this dreadnought or scout squad as well? Such arguments can only be properly resolved, arguments that include multiple units, through an actually game where you can actually see what happens.

 

That is why most discussions are based around a particular unit. When based around tactics, they talk about a tactic with a specific group of units more than the whole army. when talking about specific armies and races, it becames an agument/debate in many directions.

 

Last but not least. Nightrunner, you do live in the UK don't you? Maybe i could prove my point and you could get a chance chance to reinforce your points by having a game say may/june? next year? if you want to and you live in the UK, then PM me about it.

 

EDIT: touching lightly on the Leafblower. it is possibly for the leafblower to handle itself quiet well against a cavalry list even with podders. personally i think the leafblower would have a good time against it. But I and some other players in other forums and in the BolS report have already pointed out that the list could be improved. Mech lists are the bane of assualting armies. ^^.

 

thanks

antique_nova

[Godhead]

and i doubt that i can make you change your mind as well. we both have stubborn views of the TWC. cavalry have a charge range of 12-18. 6 for moving and 12 for charging. not the 18-24 your on about. plus TWC don't have fleet.

 

pg 54 of the little rule book. Beasts and Calvary have the fleet rule.

 

Not knowing the full capabilities of a unit could lead to overconfidence.

 

The bottom line is a s5 t5 3+save with the potential to have a 3++ save with good mobility makes for a tough unit, and it doesn't compete for the oh so valuable elite slot like alot of our other hard units. This makes them worth considering. They are balanced out by unit cost and size. There is absolutely no threat to the TWC that wouldn't defeat a different unit just as easily if not easier. They are not a fire and forget, take a few sips of an adult beverage, and collect my win unit. There isn't one in any codex.

 

If my one unit of TWC has the attention of several AT units then my rhinos don't get popped. My dread doesn't get popped, etc. List composition does make a difference. Perhaps the issue here is what do you need to make an army that incorporates TWC "balanced"?

 

I realize that you cannot always discuss someone's list as a whole, but IMO a lot of this discussion has boiled down to is I have 5 units that can do this to your one unit. Unfortunately even those 5 units can't ensure that 1 unit of TWC is taken out. 10 bolters at 10 fen wolves is discussion that you can make a pretty strong argument for a unit being able to effectively dispatch another. The funny thing is, plenty of people are still taking fen wolves and having success with them.

 

I prefer to run TWC. I don't care as much for terminators because I feel that they negatively affect the mobility of my lists. I am either required to buy LRs or PODs if I want some kind of transport for these units. Maybe TWC usage is one that needs a list built more around them instead of just popped in as an after thought. To simply say that they are easily dispatched is foolish and not true. I have yet to see a foolproof method for dealing with them. Dice rolls and luck have been key ingredients in every method presented thus far. Obviously you want to use whatever tools that will minimize those two factors from having as much determination on the outcome of any fight as possible, but when the best tools available leaves the outcome cloudy and uncertain screams of competitiveness to me.

[Ominous Anonymous]

If you guys wanted a TWC-themed list to go over, you could check my list here. <_<

 

But advertisements aside, Godhand's right: you can go on about what can kill TWC, but whatever's killing them is now not killing the units that capture objectives, or acts as a gunline, etc.

[antique_nova]

oops, i still get that rule mixed with 4-5th edition. anyway. i wouldn't be too quick to say that the charge range is 18-24. proper response later

thanks

antique_nova