DH/WH Whispers

[Valerian]

They had been started by Andy Hoare (sp?) who has since left GW, in another thread Harry stated that Phil Kelly has taken over that Codex upon finishing Space Wolves. He is also Apparently working on Codex Dark Eldar, So I'm unsure of how much has been done on the Grey Knights Dex.

I see this as a good thing too. In addition to Grey Knights, I've got both a Space Wolves and Ork army, and Phil Kelly wrote the most recent codices for both of those armies, too. Although nobody is ever completely satisfied, almost everyone who actually plays either of those forces agrees that Phil did a bang up job with both of those codices. He made competitive armies that stayed true to concept, character, identity, and "fluff" for both Orks and Space Wolves, and I would definitely rather have Phil working on the new codex over any of the other available design team members.

I assume that we'll consider the Ork Nob Bikers an honest oversight on his part and not a serious screwup, then? It's quite beyond me that models who can have all three saves all the time never raised any warning bells in the playtesting stage. How does anybody miss that?

 

What do you mean all three saves, all of the time? Sure they get the Warbike's 4+ Cover Save, and can get upgrades for 'Eavy Armour (a 4+ regular Armor Save), and a Cybork Body 5+ Invulnerable Save, but they can only use one at a time, just like everybody else in the game.

 

Of course they can be a powerful "Death Star" type of unit, but this costs a premium to get all of the necessary upgrades to make them viable, at the expense of the rest of the Ork player's army. I'd say that a Grey Knights Terminator squad of equal points would do just fine against an Ork Biker mob.

 

V

[Xelloss]

Of course they can be a powerful "Death Star" type of unit, but this costs a premium to get all of the necessary upgrades to make them viable, at the expense of the rest of the Ork player's army.

Even then they are too much cost effective, thus don't compensate for their great resistance, power, mobility.

[- 7eAL -]

They had been started by Andy Hoare (sp?) who has since left GW, in another thread Harry stated that Phil Kelly has taken over that Codex upon finishing Space Wolves. He is also Apparently working on Codex Dark Eldar, So I'm unsure of how much has been done on the Grey Knights Dex.

I see this as a good thing too. In addition to Grey Knights, I've got both a Space Wolves and Ork army, and Phil Kelly wrote the most recent codices for both of those armies, too. Although nobody is ever completely satisfied, almost everyone who actually plays either of those forces agrees that Phil did a bang up job with both of those codices. He made competitive armies that stayed true to concept, character, identity, and "fluff" for both Orks and Space Wolves, and I would definitely rather have Phil working on the new codex over any of the other available design team members.

I assume that we'll consider the Ork Nob Bikers an honest oversight on his part and not a serious screwup, then? It's quite beyond me that models who can have all three saves all the time never raised any warning bells in the playtesting stage. How does anybody miss that?

What do you mean all three saves, all of the time? Sure they get the Warbike's 4+ Cover Save, and can get upgrades for 'Eavy Armour (a 4+ regular Armor Save), and a Cybork Body 5+ Invulnerable Save, but they can only use one at a time, just like everybody else in the game.

I know they can only use one save at a time, what I was referring to was the constant availability of all those saves almost all the time. I neglected to mention paying +30 points for a Painboy who confers Feel No Pain. The Painboy compounds everything, especially the 2-Wound statline. At the same time, you have managed to forget that warbikes automatically confer a 4+ armour save, so they don't need to buy the additional +5 points for 'eavy armour.

 

Cost effectiveness is partially a matter of application. Since good mobility allows them to pick their fights, this generally isn't a problem for Nob warbikes, so Nob warbikers are usually a step out of reach for enemies who would normally be able to take them down - Grey Knights Terminators included.

 

Honestly I don't see how they aren't cost effective. 18" Strength 5 Assault 3 weapons, twin-linked to ease the horrible inaccuracy of BS2, plus an additional 5 Furious Charge-enhanced attacks per model, without adding any powerclaws or big choppas, and a Painboy. As long as they don't meet power weapons they're fine. Any cost to the rest of the Ork player's army comes at the expense of maxed-out Boys squads or heavily tooled Warbosses, neither of which isn't a big deal in the long run as long as enough Boys remain to capture objectives. How these armies survive against Armoured Companies I still can't make any sense of beyond Lootas, but they don't seem in the least bit crippled against tanks, not to the extent that Grey Knight infantry are.

[SamaNagol]

Nob Bikers are the single greatest unit in 40k

[number6]

Nob Bikers are the single greatest unit in 40k

Phil Kelly does have a tendency to make "uber" units. Nob Bikerz, 4e 'nid 'nidzilla list build, Njal Stormcaller, Jaws of the World Wolf, etc.

 

However, it's worth noting that there are lots of "hammer" units in 40K. GKTs are, from some armies' points of view, just as nasty to deal with as Nob Bikers. There are ways to deal with such units. But it does mean approaching your army lists and builds with an open mind. You can't reasonably expect to deal with Nob Bikers with a pure GK list or a footslogger Sisters list, for example. You'll just get eaten alive. But both the DH and WH codexes have plenty of tools available to render any Ork list -- especially Ork lists that are entirely dependent upon Nob Bikers -- toothless.

 

This is part of playing 40K. When someone brings a hammer, you have to bring the counter to it. If you don't, your continued difficulties -- or losses ;) -- are your own doing, and not the fault of Phil Kelly (or GW designers). (Though I will say that, clearly, GW can and should do a better job of playtesting.)

[SamaNagol]

Making a game veer towards Rock Paper Scissors so much is their fault. It is poor games testing.

 

It means you are forced to play a certain way at tournament play and it renders certain armies very poor against certain builds.

 

Out of interest what would you recommend to take out a unit of 5 Nob Bikers and a Warboss on a Bike that isn't 5 GKT inc Grand Master? Cos even those don't really do the job.

[Valerian]

They had been started by Andy Hoare (sp?) who has since left GW, in another thread Harry stated that Phil Kelly has taken over that Codex upon finishing Space Wolves. He is also Apparently working on Codex Dark Eldar, So I'm unsure of how much has been done on the Grey Knights Dex.

I see this as a good thing too. In addition to Grey Knights, I've got both a Space Wolves and Ork army, and Phil Kelly wrote the most recent codices for both of those armies, too. Although nobody is ever completely satisfied, almost everyone who actually plays either of those forces agrees that Phil did a bang up job with both of those codices. He made competitive armies that stayed true to concept, character, identity, and "fluff" for both Orks and Space Wolves, and I would definitely rather have Phil working on the new codex over any of the other available design team members.

I assume that we'll consider the Ork Nob Bikers an honest oversight on his part and not a serious screwup, then? It's quite beyond me that models who can have all three saves all the time never raised any warning bells in the playtesting stage. How does anybody miss that?

What do you mean all three saves, all of the time? Sure they get the Warbike's 4+ Cover Save, and can get upgrades for 'Eavy Armour (a 4+ regular Armor Save), and a Cybork Body 5+ Invulnerable Save, but they can only use one at a time, just like everybody else in the game.

I know they can only use one save at a time, what I was referring to was the constant availability of all those saves almost all the time. I neglected to mention paying +30 points for a Painboy who confers Feel No Pain. The Painboy compounds everything, especially the 2-Wound statline. At the same time, you have managed to forget that warbikes automatically confer a 4+ armour save, so they don't need to buy the additional +5 points for 'eavy armour.

 

7eAL,

 

I rechecked the Ork Codex when I got home, and you are absolutely correct. The Warbike gives the rider a 4+ Armour Save and the 4+ Cover Save from the Exhaust Cloud - looks like I've been overcharging myself 30 points. Regardless, they are still a pricy unit.

 

Cost effectiveness is partially a matter of application. Since good mobility allows them to pick their fights, this generally isn't a problem for Nob warbikes, so Nob warbikers are usually a step out of reach for enemies who would normally be able to take them down - Grey Knights Terminators included.

 

I never said that they weren't cost effective, hell, I've got a unit of 6 Warbiker Nobz in my own Ork army, but they are expensive and can be dealt with. You could run them as they come and they would be a "good" unit. To make them a great unit, however, means that you need the 'Eavy Armour for everyone, Painboy Upgrade, Cybork Bodies for everyone, a Boss Pole (to help keep you from breaking too easily from a failed Morale check based on your poor Ork Leadership), a Waagh! Banner (to give your Nobz Weapon Skill of 5), a couple of Power Klaws (to prevent your opponent from getting Armor Saves, because, let's face it, even with Strength 5 from Furious Charge, those Nobz aren't going to kill many Marines with 3+ Armour if they don't take away that save), and enough other random weapons and upgrades to make each model unique - allowing the Ork Warbiker Nobz to take advantage of the Wound Allocation rules. Ultimately this makes for a very expensive pack of models.

 

Regards,

 

V

[number6]

Making a game veer towards Rock Paper Scissors so much is their fault. It is poor games testing.

 

It means you are forced to play a certain way at tournament play and it renders certain armies very poor against certain builds.

There is another way to look at this. ^_^ If a codex -- any codex -- provides you with obviously potent units, why would you ever build an army without them?

 

Take, for example, the pure GK army ... and why it doesn't work. If you understand why pure GK isn't a "competitive" army, you'll understand why Nob Biker armies aren't actually all that scary, either. But you have to bring more of the actual "good" units out of your codex, and in the right proportions. GKs are, in some lights, pretty good units. But if you look at them with a critical eye, their shortcomings should be blatantly obvious and indicate to you why you can't build an army out of them. So bring them in smallish amounts to do what they can do, but then complement them with other units -- the actual "good units" out of your codex -- to fill their gaps.

 

This is how you build a "balanced" army.

Out of interest what would you recommend to take out a unit of 5 Nob Bikers and a Warboss on a Bike that isn't 5 GKT inc Grand Master? Cos even those don't really do the job.

Nob Biker armies aren't balanced armies. And the usual way you beat someone else's hammer isn't by trying to bring an even bigger hammer. (If you can get away with it, OK, but that's not the most efficient way to do it.)

 

You beat Nob Bikers with speedbumps and focused firepower. Block them with ISTs in transports to slow them down. Let them eat an IST unit or two before they can get to you. Nob Bikers can't do much damage from range, so that is their weakness. Keep them away from you. Delay them for a turn or two, and shoot the crap out of them. Nob Bikers are expensive. More expensive than GKTs. Knock just half of that unit out and then you can smash what's left with your GKTs in close combat if you like. And with the Bikers gone, you've just beaten the entire army. But you have to exploit their true weakness, first: torrent of fire. They rely mightily on their speed to keep them safe. Deny them this one talent, and you will beat them. Once you beat them enough times, your Ork opponents will realize that bringing a "hammer army" isn't the same as bringing a "balanced" army, and you'll see their army lists change to adapt to your superior list and tactics.

[Valerian]

My 6 Nob Bikers, with the upgrades that I described above (Painboy+Cybork bodies, 2x Power Klaws, & 2x Big Choppas, + Waagh! Banner and Bosspole costs 421 points! And I didn't even put a Warboss on a Bike to join them (which would push the points way up).

 

For 421 points you can buy a Land Raider Crusader and enough GKT's to go deal with them (or use a variety of other techniques, as Number6 has indicated).

 

V