Dark Angels PoMS

[Maxamato]

Hi all!

 

I had last weekend a friendly rule discussion with my friend about pivot/turn.

The reason for this discussion was a follow:

1. Can a stunned vehicle pivot/turn?

 

 

@ Point 1:

The BRB say on page 57 that pivot/turn do not count as movement.

The rule for “Stunned crew” says that the vehicle can’t move and shoot.

My friend and I were not clear about this and we have asked the rule boys (GW Germany) for clarification. The answer was that it is allowed for a stunned vehicle to pivot/turn on the spot because the pivot/turn doesn’t count as movement.

 

I thought I will give you that for information because I haven’t thought this possibility before and have never played that this way.

 

So this answer from GW and the RAW for pivot/turn doesn’t count as a movement brings me to following question.

 

Our PoMS says he can only move in a straight line. For me means that, that he can’t change his direction during his movement.

But can he pivot/turn at the beginning of his movement?

 

Please help me in this case. I’m not clear about this.

 

Thanks.

 

Regards

Maxamato

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Due to the intricate nature of this question, I'll move this over to +Official rules+ section.

[Grey Mage]

A vehicle has to be ABLE to move in order to pivot, but that doesnt mean it counts as movement for the purposes of shooting- IE how many weapons you can fire.

[Isiah]

Yes that's pretty much how I do it – pivot > move off in straight line. As per BRB p57 only 'immobilised' vehicles cannot pivot at all for movement purposes.

[Maxamato]

Hi All!

 

Thanks for the replied and for moving to the right location!

 

That sounds good, that I can turn it and move.

 

Regards

Maxamato

[Isiah]

That sounds good, that I can turn it and move.

 

Technically 'pivot' and move :(.

[Maxamato]

Rigth, pivot and than move. :o

[thade]

I read this thread and I actually got confused, (hey, that's me), so....Just to clarify!

 

1. Can a stunned vehicle pivot/turn?

 

No. A vehicle needs to be able to move in order to pivot, and a Stunned vehicle cannot move. If it's not stunned and not Tank Shocking/Ramming, however, the tank can pivot for free at any point during it's movement.

 

The confusion came up when I started to wonder if a vehicle could pivot while stunned, which I came to while reading this thread. Not that it would accomplish much...but it could allow you to put something that stunned you in your rear arc suddenly in your front arc. @_@ So, anyway, a vehicle can't pivot while stunned. Right?

[Grey Mage]

Thats what I said in my post, and I stand by it.

[Maxamato]

So, anyway, a vehicle can't pivot while stunned. Right?

 

No, you aren't right. Pivoting doesn't count as movement (BRB page 57). Stunned crew means that you aren't allowed to move.

If a vehicle is stunned you can pivot it.

 

I have got alos the clarifiaction from GW Germany. They have confirmed it.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

Ask another GW ruleboy and you'll get a completely different answer.

 

Anyways.

 

Rulebook, page 61, Damage Results, Immobilised

The vehicle may not move for the rest of the game. An immobilised vehicle may not turn in place...

 

Rulebook, page 61, Damage Results, Stunned

The vehicle may not move...

 

Rulebook, page 57, Vehicles and movement

...(however, immobilised vehicles may not even pivot).

 

A vehicle that may not move is, for all intents and purposes, treated as though it is temporarily immobilsed. Immobilised vehicles may not pivot on the spot. If you want a fluff rationale, a crew so stunned as to be unable to steer or move the vehicle will most certainly not have the presence of mind to pivot it on the spot... PotMS states that the vehicle may move up to a certain distance straight ahead, more than implying that it keeps moving in the direction it was facing when the vehicle was stunned.

[Maxamato]

Ask another GW ruleboy and you'll get a completely different answer.

You are probably right. :D

 

I agree with the comment for the immobilized results. Because there is clear written: … no move and pivot/turn.

 

Stunned means not that a vehicle is “temporary immobilized” because there is no rule in the BRB and that will be a important information I think.

 

But in principle is written by page 57 that pivot doesn’t count as movement.

So a stunned vehicle can pivot on the spot during it is stunned.

 

Regards

Maxamato

[Isiah]

So a stunned vehicle can pivot on the spot during it is stunned.

 

Yes. There is no mention of being "temporarily immobilised" while stunned. Being Immobilised is the only time you can't pivot.

[thade]

So a stunned vehicle can pivot on the spot during it is stunned.

 

Yes. There is no mention of being "temporarily immobilised" while stunned. Being Immobilised is the only time you can't pivot.

 

That is awesome. I'm glad I saw this thread.

[SeattleDV8]

Although pivoting on the spot does not 'count as' movement it is still moving.

BRB pg. 66 " If a vehicle has moved before its passengers got aboard, it may not move any further (including pivoting on the spot)"

and pg. 67 "If the vehicle has already moved (including pivoting on the spot)...."

This movement is ignored for some things (movement distance and shooting) but is still moving.

No pivoting when stunned.

[Maxamato]

Although pivoting on the spot does not 'count as' movement it is still moving.

This movement is ignored for some things (movement distance and shooting) but is still moving.

Sorry, this is not correct.

 

BRB pg. 66 " If a vehicle has moved before its passengers got aboard, it may not move any further (including pivoting on the spot)"

and pg. 67 "If the vehicle has already moved (including pivoting on the spot)...."

This is related to transport for passengers. That is correct.

 

 

In the BRB is written clear that pivot isn’t moving.

[Isiah]

Indeed I hear what you say SeattleDV8 but it is a bit of a two-sided argument. I guess if non-pivoting applied to Stunned then

 

"(including pivoting on the spot)"

 

should surely then have been included in its description?? The fact that it hasn't, but that it has been included elsewhere to other specific rule items... logically leads to a different conclusion.

 

If you read the Immobilised result it does specifically state that:

 

"An immobilised vehicle may not turn in place [...]"

 

As I see it, unless a local specific rule says otherwise (as in your examples and the immobilised one cited above), then the catch-all vehicle movement rule of:

 

"Pivoting on the spot alone does not count as moving, so a vehicle that only pivots in the Movement phase counts as stationary (however Immobilised vehicles may not even pivot."

 

always takes precedence.

[HiveFleetEzekial]

I think what SeatleDV8 was trying to do is correct the few generalized, blanket, statements made throughout this thread sofar that 'pivoting is not movement (period)'. Which is, infact, as he pointed out, wrong! The fact that it isn't, for certain things, does not change the fact that it is still movement. And some people have been saying that it simply isn't movement, period. One must look at the specific situation to tell whether or not it counts as movement for that specific purpose. As there is no 'general' rule for it.

[Maxamato]

I think what SeatleDV8 was trying to do is correct the few generalized, blanket, statements made throughout this thread sofar that 'pivoting is not movement (period)'. Which is, infact, as he pointed out, wrong! The fact that it isn't, for certain things, does not change the fact that it is still movement. And some people have been saying that it simply isn't movement, period. One must look at the specific situation to tell whether or not it counts as movement for that specific purpose. As there is no 'general' rule for it.

 

However, my intention isn't to assure anyone.

[angronn]

Indeed I hear what you say SeattleDV8 but it is a bit of a two-sided argument. I guess if non-pivoting applied to Stunned then

 

"(including pivoting on the spot)"

 

should surely then have been included in its description?? The fact that it hasn't, but that it has been included elsewhere to other specific rule items... logically leads to a different conclusion.

 

If you read the Immobilised result it does specifically state that:

 

"An immobilised vehicle may not turn in place [...]"

 

As I see it, unless a local specific rule says otherwise (as in your examples and the immobilised one cited above), then the catch-all vehicle movement rule of:

 

"Pivoting on the spot alone does not count as moving, so a vehicle that only pivots in the Movement phase counts as stationary (however Immobilised vehicles may not even pivot."

 

always takes precedence.

 

I hadn't thought about it before, but this reasoning works for me.

[Frosty the Pyro]

Indeed, it may not be a rule I like (I think stunned should prevent pivoting) but it does not change that the rule does alow for pivoting of any vehicle that is not imobalized or destroyed. And considering that the old PoTMS (one of the few situations), is generaly weaker than the new one, I wont begrudge you or anyone taking advantage of it.