"Best"/cheapest way to counter loyalist TH/SS?

[lorider2]

Besides for shooting everything in my army at them and hoping for 1s, I'm blanking on how to kill these guys. And a lot of people are running them because of the serious SS upgrade. What reasonable cost Chaos unit can deal with them even semi reliably?

 

5 Havocs in rhino with flamers? 3 Oblits firing PCs? 2 Vindis? LC and MoT termies? 2 Sorcs with Gift of Chaos? 2 on foot WT MoT DPs? Looking for suggestions under 300 points if possible as the TH/SS temries are usually 200, 300 with chappy. Thanks.

[the jeske]

they are 300 with chappy + 250 pts for LR. best thing to do is either tar pit with two DPs . control them with lash after poping transport . mulit shot weapons [but that is tailoring lists] oblits double taping plazma , termicid double taping plazma 4 hvy bolter or 4 auto canon havocks.

[lorider2]

they are 300 with chappy + 250 pts for LR. best thing to do is either tar pit with two DPs . control them with lash after poping transport . mulit shot weapons [but that is tailoring lists] oblits double taping plazma , termicid double taping plazma 4 hvy bolter or 4 auto canon havocks.

 

I'm not worried about the LR. Plenty of ways to take that down at lesser points IMO. Well mainly one - melta. :tu: I don't see how HB or AC havocks makes sense, both kill less than one term per round right?

 

4 HB

12 shots - 8 hits - 5.3 wounds - .8 dead loyalists

 

4 AC

 

8 shots - 5.3 hits - 4.44 wounds - .74 dead termies

[Tfcdogbert]

Oblits are a waste of time, not with SS's, there are 3 ways id suggest.

 

1: Raptors, Khorne, Flamers, double flame then charge, smack them with about 40 attacks on the charge that will crush them hard and fast.

 

2: Khorne or Slaanesh Terminators, slaanesh if they have any LC's, charge and get to killing, possibly with combi meltas for an assault salvo that might melt a couple of them and are fairly cheap.

 

3: Havocs with 4 Heavy Bolters, this will slowly whitle them down for low points outlay.

 

All of those arent that specialised and you can reasonable include some in an all comers list.

 

Dont send DP's against them, really realy dont, or it will get whacked.

[minigun762]

You can always tarpit them with Lesser Daemons.

 

200 points buy you 15 of the little guys, thats 30 attacks = 15 hits = 7.5 wounds = 1.25 dead Terminators and you actually get a save against their Thunder Hammers.

[Iron_Chaos_Brute]

Enough berzerkers'll pile enough attacks on them to take them down. Just make sure you get a coordinated 2 DP/2 Zerk squad charge and you should (haven't done mathhammer to back it up, speaking anecdotally) wipe them before they strike.

[lorider2]

1: Raptors, Khorne, Flamers, double flame then charge, smack them with about 40 attacks on the charge that will crush them hard and fast.

 

40 attacks - 20 hits - 10 wounds - 1.66 dead termies. Combined with 2 flamers (and bolt pistols!) I could see some decent damage here but just seems risky to me. And at what 240 points I'd want to be pretty sure I have

almost equal odds.

 

If you did get 2 kills it would be

 

6 attacks - 3 hits - 2.5 wounds. Wouldn't be too hard to saty in combat with champ, though that takes unit to 255.

 

Dont send DP's against them, really realy dont, or it will get whacked.

 

Well on the charge Vanilla dps 220 pts would have

 

10 attacks - 6 hits - 5 wounds - 1.66 dead termies. Same as your raptor zerkers. Cheaper too, and with fearless and a 5 inv save, though less range and obviously no shooting.

 

Just make sure you get a coordinated 2 DP/2 Zerk squad charge and you should

 

I bet you are right, but then you talking about at least 450, maybe 600+ points all in cordination on one turn to take down a 200 point unit.

 

You can always tarpit them with Lesser Daemons.

 

200 points buy you 15 of the little guys, thats 30 attacks = 15 hits = 7.5 wounds = 1.25 dead Terminators and you actually get a save against their Thunder Hammers.

 

Thanks minigun. As they are also fearless that sounds like perhaps not a killer, but a good tarpit to me.

 

Assuming 4 termies survive thats -

 

8 attacks - 4 hits - 3.33 wounds - 2.22 wounds. Comes to basically 3 factoring in fearless. Would last quite a while . . .

[the jeske]

I bet you are right, but then you talking about at least 450, maybe 600+ points all in cordination on one turn to take down a 200 point unit.

without IC and foot slogging [and 2 dps dont cost 600 pts]. you can always block their charge with a rhino or lash them [200 wasted points ].

I don't see how HB or AC havocks makes sense, both kill less than one term per round right?

well if it is 5 termis footslogging even if they run you still get 2-3 dead guys and 2 termis in hth without a IC that baby sits it is dead even against a normal squad of csm. the number of saves forced on them will kill them[specially if they have to charge in to cover]. the main problem with TH termis[for people that use them of course] is that there has to be 3 of them for them to work otherwise they turn in to dreadnoughs light. tough and strong , but with few attacks. that is why they need that IC to even things up and with a transport this makes the unit cost tons of points.

[Grey Mage]

Jeske brings up a good point- you dont have to counter one uber unit with another single unit. Hit them with ranged to knock them down to a managable size and then get the charge off if you can.

[Tfcdogbert]

i have found raptors work better than die suggest for me, and rolling masses of them are just satisfying and tends to inspire ones on their part, i wiped a deathwing squad with chaplain with it, get a AC with a power sword and he gets 5 attacks which is nice and will add another kill to the mix.

 

Full Mathhammer:

 

2 flamers, assume 6 hits, 3 wounds 0.5 kills

8 BP's assume 5 hits 2.5 wounds 0.5 (roughly) kills (safe to assume 1 kill from shooting)

 

Charge against squad of 4.

Total attacks: 7 std: 28

2 flamers : 6 attacks

AC: 5 attacks

 

so thats 34 attacks standard, 5 power weapon.

 

Standard:

34 hits

17 hit

8.5 wound

About 1.5 kills

 

AC:

5 attacks

2.5 wound

1.25 kills

 

round off to another 2 kills maybe 3.

 

Leaving them with two:

 

4 attacks back with TH

2 hit

2 dead.

 

You outkill no LD check your good for next turn where you repeat that feat and probably kill them both.

 

This unit does have problems inherant with all assault marines, that its a normal marine squad, but if they come to you, counter attack fun.

 

Thing about DP's is that footslogging DP's never reach targets, they become heavy weapon targets as they are hard to hide. they need wings and MON or MOTZ to do decent things and that jacks up the points, and they get a thunder hammer spam to the face, ive just had some bad experiences with that, you need to spend points to make them truly effective, without wings its 50/50 for charge and if your charged your gonna get a bit smushed.

 

Or you can take the fun solution.

 

VINDICATOR! :D

 

(Or two), they will kill half the unit a shot, and they are just funny ;).

[Grey Mage]

Givem mark of Slaanesh, and it wont even matter if yoru opponent is using Lightning claws too.

[Iron_Chaos_Brute]

Just make sure you get a coordinated 2 DP/2 Zerk squad charge and you should

 

I bet you are right, but then you talking about at least 450, maybe 600+ points all in cordination on one turn to take down a 200 point unit.

How do you play 40K? I use asymmetrical force to eliminate resistance in one part of the battlefield at a time. I don't just throw my whole army at their whole army, I throw half my army at a quarter of theirs while the other half of mine screens and repeat.

[chillin]

5 Havocs in rhino with flamers? 3 Oblits firing PCs? 2 Vindis? LC and MoT termies? 2 Sorcs with Gift of Chaos? 2 on foot WT MoT DPs? Looking for suggestions under 300 points if possible as the TH/SS temries are usually 200, 300 with chappy. Thanks.

 

You're trying to get too fancy and specific. Best way to deal with them (or any uber squad) IMO... one word...numbers.

I don't try to take an uber squad to fight an uber squad, I just know that b/c of the uber squad (and probably other things like expensive characters) I know their army is smaller then mine. I keep game objectives in mind, try to piecemill other, weaker squads. And there is more then 1 way to deal with uber squads, kill transport and put them on foot, bottleneck them, use empty rinos to slow their movement, tarpit them, run from them, and then hit them w/ overwhelming force once you've concentrated on their other squads, or (in objective games) let the uber squad have 1 objective and you take the rest.

You are really going the wrong way in trying to find one squad to counter their squad, You use your army to defeat their army. That's IMO anyway :)

[chillin]

Lorider2, you have suggestions from several people, you are mathhammering the hell out of everything and telling them why their suggestions won't work before you've tried it. I've played against armies with uber SS/TH & Lysander (or simular) characters several times, I've never lost a game b/c of their uber squad, I fact I'm pretty sure I've not lost a game to one of these armies. I'm sure other people on here have defeated them too, using my strategy or their own. Why don't you try some of them insread of throwing out math hammer to say why it won't work ?? :)

[lorider2]

[and 2 dps dont cost 600 pts].

 

2 DPs cost 220 min and 2 zerk units vanilla cost 210. Few would ever run them that way so with wings, rhinos, fists, and spells to the cost of those 4 units could easily reach 600. As far as firepower, less than 1 kill per turn just seems like a waste. I don;t doubt it adds up, but how often have your havoks gotten even just 3 turns to fire at termies?

 

How do you play 40K? I use asymmetrical force to eliminate resistance in one part of the battlefield at a time. I don't just throw my whole army at their whole army, I throw half my army at a quarter of theirs while the other half of mine screens and repeat.

 

Sure, and how does your opponent play? Mine will often try and do the same thing, with the advantage of a 200 point unit which is hard to come close matching point for point. When someone drops a 5 man TH/SS unit right in the middle of all my forces, yep its no problem.

 

5 Havocs in rhino with flamers? 3 Oblits firing PCs? 2 Vindis? LC and MoT termies? 2 Sorcs with Gift of Chaos? 2 on foot WT MoT DPs? Looking for suggestions under 300 points if possible as the TH/SS temries are usually 200, 300 with chappy. Thanks.

 

... one word...numbers... kill transport and put them on foot, bottleneck them, use empty rinos to slow their movement, tarpit them, run from them, and then hit them w/ overwhelming force once you've concentrated on their other squads, or (in objective games) let the uber squad have 1 objective and you take the rest.

You are really going the wrong way in trying to find one squad to counter their squad, You use your army to defeat their army. That's IMO anyway :P

 

 

No doubt, I really don't disagree with you in any way. I could certainly focus a large part of my army on them as I said in the OP or take your advice and just basically . .. ignore them or run away. I have done both and won games either way, though admittedly in part because my opponents were worse tacticians. However, as chaos massed shooting isn't all too common and IMO running away even less so. A TH/SS squad is only 200 points and footslogging can easily hold a early objective, more than make up in kill points and contest far objectives with ease by deepstrile. Obviously, any good general could use your need to deal with termies solely by concentrated effort to his great advantage. Spearhead, tarpit, etc, etc.

 

Lorider2, you have suggestions from several people, you are mathhammering the hell out of everything and telling them why their suggestions won't work before you've tried it. I've played against armies with uber SS/TH & Lysander (or simular) characters several times, I've never lost a game b/c of their uber squad, I fact I'm pretty sure I've not lost a game to one of these armies. I'm sure other people on here have defeated them too, using my strategy or their own. Why don't you try some of them insread of throwing out math hammer to say why it won't work ?? ;)

 

I never said anything won't work, I'm simply trying to find the "best" solution. Perhaps it doesn't exist, but mathhammer is a decent way to try and do that. Of course no way is perfect, even trying it out because the actual dice rolls that day are always more influential than the odds!

 

Anyways, I like some better than others and will try a few. dogbert's raptors and summoned demons both sound interesting and at a decent points cost. Though even then in order to really have odds of "winning" you need to spend more (10 raptors with 2 flamers, Mok, and pw cost 270 by my math). I think I do like this unit more cause it is great at anti-horde . . . though not scoring as lesser Ds are.

 

Anyone else have under 300 point suggestion? It can certainly be a combination of units.

[Citizen Snips]

My solution has always been one squad of zerkers. If your up against TH/SS, you need numbers over quality of weaponry. Obviously don't just put all your eggs in one basket with one squad, work them down with any other close units by to thin them out. But if you have to take them head on 1 squad vs 1 squad, 40 attacks that save on a 2+ is a better way to go than a handful of plasma or melta shots that save on one less than an armor.

[the jeske]

I don;t doubt it adds up, but how often have your havoks gotten even just 3 turns to fire at termies?

I play a NM build torrent of fire never failed to kill them +lash control , but that is NMbuild only.

I dont know why you would want to charge 5 termis with 2 zerker units and 2 DPS , i mean you dont have to kill them in one turn of shoting or hth combat . you just have to drop them to 2 models or lower and they stop to work.

two dps costs less then 5 termis [i must say I have never see slogging termis work, they will die to shoting . so for me they are 450 pts always ] , two zerker untis cost almost the same and are scoring.

[chillin]

Anyone else have under 300 point suggestion? It can certainly be a combination of units.

 

OK, how about 20 naked csm's. That's 40 bolter shots, by mathhammer thats 2.6 dead termi's (I think in a real game it would be higher).

Then another 40 hth attacks the next turn (minus the few csm's 2.5 termi's might kill by shooting), that's another 2.6 dead, the uber squad is gone in one round.

That's just an example though, really I think you are worring too much about a 5 man squad, you said you have won both by focusing fire and "ingoring/running from" them.

When I see my opponent has taken that uber termi squad, I know it will require some thinking/tacics, but I really see it as to my advantage. If the've spent the same on 5 models as I have on 20 (lets say 15 by the time I add in spec weops, champs etc) I outnumber

them 3 to 1 (in that use of pts).

[Requiemnex]

Anyone else have under 300 point suggestion? It can certainly be a combination of units.

 

OK, how about 20 naked csm's. That's 40 bolter shots, by mathhammer thats 2.6 dead termi's (I think in a real game it would be higher).

Then another 40 hth attacks the next turn (minus the few csm's 2.5 termi's might kill by shooting), that's another 2.6 dead, the uber squad is gone in one round.

That's just an example though, really I think you are worring too much about a 5 man squad, you said you have won both by focusing fire and "ingoring/running from" them.

When I see my opponent has taken that uber termi squad, I know it will require some thinking/tacics, but I really see it as to my advantage. If the've spent the same on 5 models as I have on 20 (lets say 15 by the time I add in spec weops, champs etc) I outnumber

them 3 to 1 (in that use of pts).

 

 

I agree with chillen, I really dont see it as a huge threat. Sure they have a 3+ invul squad.. It can be dakka' down and to add from that as great as storm shield is it just gives you invul power armor.. Very killable. I run a 10 man plasma squad that sloggs and they wreck termies... 4 plasma shots with 3+ instead of 2+ is pretty good. sure they will get the charge but thats 16 bolter shots 4 plasma shots and 20 shots with CCW in assault without an aspiring champion and that is EASILY under 300 pts.

[chillin]

I run a 10 man plasma squad that sloggs and they wreck termies... 4 plasma shots with 3+ instead of 2+ is pretty good. sure they will get the charge but thats 16 bolter shots 4 plasma shots and 20 shots with CCW in assault without an aspiring champion and that is EASILY under 300 pts.

 

180 pts. I run the exact same squad all the time (always well worth their pts), I think after a round of shooting from dual plaz squad, that uber squad is down to 2 (3 tops). Then assault, they get 7 attacks (9 if 3 left) against our 20, at same int. Uber termi's are lucky if have 1 guy standing. Lets not forget we had 120 pts left over; CC dread- 4 or 5 str 10 attacks (instasquish for chappy), pack of 9 daemons - 27 xtra hth attacks + means plaz squad gets to charge next turn and takes nothing from shooting + daemons 5+ save vs termi PW's, just shy of combi pred - 2 LC & 2 AC shots throw into the plaz squads shooting, 1 oblit (w/ pts leftover) - another rapid firing (TL'ed) plaz + 2 PF attacks + now plaz squad has a champ w/ PW and combiplaz or a PF.

 

Any of these combo's and that uber squad is no more, and besides that, you have many of your guys left to move on to the next.

[Brother Amarel]

I run a 10 man plasma squad that sloggs and they wreck termies... 4 plasma shots with 3+ instead of 2+ is pretty good. sure they will get the charge but thats 16 bolter shots 4 plasma shots and 20 shots with CCW in assault without an aspiring champion and that is EASILY under 300 pts.

 

180 pts. I run the exact same squad all the time (always well worth their pts), I think after a round of shooting from dual plaz squad, that uber squad is down to 2 (3 tops). Then assault, they get 7 attacks (9 if 3 left) against our 20, at same int. Uber termi's are lucky if have 1 guy standing.

In my general 1500pt list I have a 7 man PM unit with dual plasma. For 191pts* they're pretty damn sturdy to match their offensive output.

 

* Although you might as well round them to 200pts for all the use 9pts is with the CSM 'dex :D.

[Zhukov]

A lot of usefull stuff has already been said.

 

There are 2 different cases:

 

a. Footslogging termies.

b. Termies in a landraider.

 

b. was no problem you said, so I take that one for solved.

 

How can you trouble with footslogging termies? They will never do anything except maybe denying you certain parts of the field. Either concentrate with as much as possible on them in 1 turn, which simply destoys them or ignore them and focus your whole force on the other part of his force.

 

THERE A NO HARDCOUNTERS FOR THIS UNIT, simply because of their great save, both armour and invulnerable. Most cost effective is directing small arms fire at them as they kinda pay big time for their invulnerable save.

 

Things like charging them with berzerkers in kinda risky, cause the chances are not that small that they wont fail any of for example 12 armour saves. If it happens they hammer you to death. So ranged fire still is the savest solution.

 

But then again, I dont see how on can trouble against this slow, non-scoring unit which does nothing at range.

[Corpse.]

10 Berzerkers, Powerfist Champ = 250 (6 terminators worth+10pts)

Get the charge, get 40 attacks.

36/24/16 wounds, translates 2.66 dead, the fist adds .74 to make sure 3 are dead but by then 4 TH/SS termies will strike back. You can always rely on this sort of math hitting before Twin Claw Termies because of furious charge. 4 TH/SS termies makes for 8 attacks, 4 hits, and makes 3.33 die. 67 points lost versus 120 points. One needs a land raider to get the charge, the other needs a rhino or raider, and is scoring.

 

Zerks are also godly against other targets, and the fact they score can put them in almost any list for just that fact.

[sexiest_hero]

6 chosen 4 plasmaguns IoCG 193

 

10 chosen 4 flamers 20 hits from the flamers, you should be able to catch all 5. plus the 6 BP shots.

 

finish up in hand to hand

[Requiemnex]

6 chosen 4 plasmaguns IoCG 193

 

10 chosen 4 flamers 20 hits from the flamers, you should be able to catch all 5. plus the 6 BP shots.

 

finish up in hand to hand

 

 

Teehee... 6 Chosen 5 Plasma guns.... 10 shots of rapid fire = pwn..

 

Kursplat! *sizzle*

 

Next target... :eek

 

Two Obliterators... Plasma Cannon... *thump* *thump* *sizzile*

 

To be honest.. Slogging termies would be the LEAST of my worries on the field.. I would let them come to me.. They are a huge point sink and lack any form of mobility with storm shields and not in a transport.