"Best"/cheapest way to counter loyalist TH/SS?

[IronWinds]

Here is how I have killed them in recent games. First off I avoid plasma. With their extremely good inv saves your plasma isn't much better than cheaper weapons and you can mass those cheaper weapons. My personal fav.... flamers.

 

 

Last game: And this was 6 TH/SS terminators + SW HQ thing + Logan Grimnar, all coming out of a crusader..

 

1. Bait: Had a rhino near them as they finished off my teammates nurgle bikers, rhino of course moved over 6" so they hit on 6s. Rhino was next to a forest so my guys could easily bail out the other side into cover and so he can't resonably surround the vehicle. He kills the rhino as expected, guys bail out into trees.

 

2. Flamers :lol:. My basic CSM squad had 2 flamers + combi flamer. All his terminators were neatly lined up against the dead rhino. So squad comes around dead rhino and baths them in chaos fire. Got a crap load of hits with those 3 flamers, and my bolt pistols.

 

3. The flamer squad and my teammates nearby zerker squad charge at the same time. Lost almost my entire flamer squad in the hth, but whiped out the remainer of the terminators that turn. My little champion made me so proud when he took out Logan all by himself :).

 

 

Best thing about this strategy. Nothing special. 2 troop squads with the basic gear I always take. Didn't plan anything special out before game for how I was going to kill him... honestly had no clue till they came out of the LR into the bikes that the guy took TH/SS or Logan. I took the things I always field and killed it.

 

Total cost for my squad and my teammates zerkers... probably around 480-500 including their rhinos, but the zerkers were still alive and went on to kill other things. Survivors of the flamer squad jumped in a rhino and drove to safety to protect their two kill points since the squad was down to so few guys. A deepstriking obliterator finished off the crusader.

 

Cost of the squad I killed: Who knows, cracked out termy HQ, Logan, 6 TH/SS termies and a crusader, probably a lot.

[Cale]

Nothing deals with SS wielding Terminators 'well' or 'effectively.' That being said, everything does something to them. You want to avoid getting into combat with them if you can. Shoot them with anything you can, whittle them down, charge the last one or two with a DP or a squad and finish them off.

 

What you need to do is accept that they're tough, that they're going to hurt you in combat, and move on. Just kill them or avoid them like you would anything else. The thing to not do is let them affect your play unduly--they're just one unit, they're not invincible, and they won't hurt anything they can't charge.

[lorider2]

But then again, I dont see how on can trouble against this slow, non-scoring unit which does nothing at range.

 

Just kill them or avoid them like you would anything else. The thing to not do is let them affect your play unduly--they're just one unit, they're not invincible, and they won't hurt anything they can't charge.

 

But is that always true? Say for example you have a mech build and your opponent has fielded 3 dev units (maybe missile, las can, plasma) He has a TH/SS unit guarding them. Maybe all in cover maybe not. Regardless, even with the first turn it would be pretty hard countering all these units and would NOT be easy to dedicate several units to combine their strength against the termies. Or if he has a drop pod army with several dreads and 2 units of SS/TH. Leaving the rhinos to shoot the termies can drop a few . .. but then what about the counter charge? Its very likely your best troop choices will be locked in combat and your objectives remain contested. Plus while either army might not have much else in his list remember . . . he will likely have something to support his precious termies!

 

I'm not in the least saying either of the above SM build is unbeatable, or even competitive - its just you need to remember the termies are also part of an larger army and likely part of a larger plan. I appreciate all the attempts at help by saying "use tactics" . . but these posters are basically working under the HUGE assumption the opponent isn't doing the exact same thing. For the third time, if he isn't, I'm not worried in the slightest! Its when he is that I would like to have a good odds unit to match up against him. Because obviously if the only answer is to use greater odds, you are admitting the opponent has a large tactical advantage that combined WITH a smart general would a hard game. Like playing say checkers when you have greater numbers but the other guy has a king . . or two! Though yes, its not impossible if I just outsmart him!

 

Thanks to those with unit sugestions, upon reflection I'm thinking a troop 3 flamer (perhaps with khorne banner?) or a zerker unit as they fit in with my larger army and are competitive (scoring etc). The problem with spam plasma is the high likely hood of rolling ones when in short range (1/3rd each shot right?) combined with the high cost of the unit (1 in 9 shots a 30+ point model dies which I think is higher than the odds the term dies from a single shot).

[Cale]

I didn't say that the solution is to "use tactics." What I said is that you don't necessarily have to deal with them, and that, if you do, the best option is just to shoot them and charge them like you'd shoot and charge anything else--it just takes more of your stuff to kill a unit of TH/SS Termies than it would to kill, say, a unit of tactical marines.

 

What it doesn't take is different stuff than it takes to kill anything else. TH/SS termies are difficult to kill with anything. They hurt everything. There is nothing that deals with them safely or well aside from shooting them from beyond their threat range. Vindicators are good for this, as are dakka preds or obliterators. Defilers aren't great, but they're not terrible, either.

 

I understand what you want, but it just isn't there. There's no unit that just runs up and kills a unit of terminators with storm shields.

 

Also, plasmas only overheat one 1s, even if you take two shots. So, there's a 10/36 chance that a rapid-firing plasma gun inflicts one wound on its wielder, and a 1/36 chance that it does two wounds to its wielder.

[lorider2]

I understand what you want, but it just isn't there. There's no unit that just runs up and kills a unit of terminators with storm shields.

 

None? 10 khorne termies with lighting claws would do on avergae 40 attacks, 20 hits, 15 wounds, 5 kills - DONE! Now of course thats a loaded answer and we both know it, but the point of this thread is what is the BEST way to counter them with a unit close to their points costs. If your only answer is, none can do it or all units do it equally good/bad. .. well I disagree!

 

Also, plasmas only overheat one 1s, even if you take two shots. So, there's a 10/36 chance that a rapid-firing plasma gun inflicts one wound on its wielder, and a 1/36 chance that it does two wounds to its wielder.

 

I thought it was 11/36 as in one dice rolls 1/ other rolls any (6 times), then other rolls 1 while the first rolls any (6 times) - minus the time both roll one (-1) which otherwise would be counted twice? I was just rounding that to 1/3.

[Cale]

It's 11/36 to get at least one 1 on two dice. That's the sum of 10/36 to get exactly one 1 on two dice and 1/36 to get two 1s on two dice.

[lorider2]

It's 11/36 to get at least one 1 on two dice. That's the sum of 10/36 to get exactly one 1 on two dice and 1/36 to get two 1s on two dice.

 

 

Gotcha. So my 1/3rd times is just a bit off, though in fairness the 1/36 it is off is counterbalanced by the 1/36 you mention as doing two wounds. I still think it is pretty risky at 30+ points per model, especially when shooting at an enemy who still has a 3+ save.

[Cale]

None? 10 khorne termies with lighting claws would do on avergae 40 attacks, 20 hits, 15 wounds, 5 kills - DONE! Now of course thats a loaded answer and we both know it, but the point of this thread is what is the BEST way to counter them with a unit close to their points costs. If your only answer is, none can do it or all units do it equally good/bad. .. well I disagree!

 

You're right--that's not a good answer. It's not the best way to counter them, and it's not even a particularly good way--since actually fielding ten Khorne, LC terminators would be a poor decision. If that's the only suggestion you have to support your position, then your position is a pretty poor one. =P

 

That being said, there is a best way to counter them. That way is almost certainly Vindicators or Obliterators. Both can destroy a land raider which is transporting them from beyond their threat range. Both generate multiple hits against the unit itself, wound well, and force them to use their invulnerable saves which, while good, are not as good as their armor.

 

But, ultimately, your post is misleading. The question you asked, originally, was not, "what is the best way to deal with them," which means that the the point of this threat is not, as you put it, "what is the BEST way to counter them with a unit close to their points costs." That question does have an answer.

 

The question you actually asked, though, was,

 

What reasonable cost Chaos unit can deal with them even semi reliably?

 

The answer to that question is that there isn't one. There is no reasonably costed chaos unit which can deal with them even semi-reliably. Even the vindicator or obliterators only do so unreliably. A pair of Vindis or six obliterators will both likely get rid of a squad over the course of a few turns. Nothing, though, fits the requirements you originally set forth.

 

 

 

edit:

As for the risk of a plasma gun, the best way to describe it is that the marine taking two shots with his plasma gun has roughly a 10.8% chance of killing himself. That's 1-(1-1/6*1/3)^2.

[chillin]

Lowrider, you are worrying too much about this 1 unit. Like Cale sz, there is really no "best" way to take them down, but there are plenty of ways to take them down, or counter them, or avoid them. Someone hit it on the head when they said to not let 1 unit affect your overall game plan or list too much, b/c once you do that your opponent has probably beaten you whether you take out his SS termi's or not.

[lorider2]

What reasonable cost Chaos unit can deal with them even semi reliably?

 

The answer to that question is that there isn't one. There is no reasonably costed chaos unit which can deal with them even semi-reliably.

 

Yeah, I caught that was your answer. But simply put, it makes no sense that every 200-300 point unit deals with SS/TH terms equally or none can deal with them semi-reliably. Several posters have given decent odds for tying up and even winning battles. Is it a lock - no, but I did not ask for that.

 

Someone hit it on the head when they said to not let 1 unit affect your overall game plan or list too much, b/c once you do that your opponent has probably beaten you whether you take out his SS termi's or not.

 

But what if you have no choice? Do you really think a good general is going to let you ignore SS/TH termies? That the unit won't/can't affect can't affect game plan simply because thry don't have ranged weapons? Of course not. What if . . shock . . ignoring them and the area they are in changes my game plan? So in that case am I beaten before the game starts? What if . . . shock . . he drops between two units holding an objective and something else is also threatening them AT THE SAME TIME (double shock!). Sure, I can focus both units on the termies and do decent damage, ignoring the other unit and letting it contest the objective. But umm - I'd rather not!

[minigun762]

Do you really think a good general is going to let you ignore SS/TH termies?

 

No, they wouldn't. Chances are they're going to ram them down your throat in a Land Raider supported by an HQ unit.

This unit is a brickhouse of death to be sure, but it also comes with certain disadvantages, namely its expensive and if you can deny them their Land Raider, they're just walking up the board.

 

In my eyes, my focus would be to kill the Land Raider asap (Termicide is great for this) and then either tarpit them with a unit(s) or knock them out at range with firepower.

 

Cale and Chillin are correct in that there is no easy counter for them, because they are an incredibly durable unit with no real weakness (besides a lack of ranged weapons).

 

Think about it from the other way, if your opponet is going to use such a squad, you know it has to be crucial to their overall plan, even if its only used as an expensive decoy. If you understand this, you can use your opponent's reliance on the unit against them. Often the best method for this is to deny its mobility and keep it controlled which is exactly what I was saying above.

[Cale]

Yeah, I caught that was your answer. But simply put, it makes no sense that every 200-300 point unit deals with SS/TH terms equally or none can deal with them semi-reliably. Several posters have given decent odds for tying up and even winning battles. Is it a lock - no, but I did not ask for that.

 

It makes sense because it's true. No similarly priced unit deals with them anywhere near reliably. None of the posters in this thread have presented any odds at all--much less decent ones.

 

15 lesser summoned daemons actually do have pretty reasonable odds of winning, though. I don't know what they are, exactly (and no one has posted those odds) but looking at the expected returns, they do stand a shot at it.

 

 

But what if you have no choice? Do you really think a good general is going to let you ignore SS/TH termies? That the unit won't/can't affect can't affect game plan simply because thry don't have ranged weapons? Of course not. What if . . shock . . ignoring them and the area they are in changes my game plan? So in that case am I beaten before the game starts? What if . . . shock . . he drops between two units holding an objective and something else is also threatening them AT THE SAME TIME (double shock!). Sure, I can focus both units on the termies and do decent damage, ignoring the other unit and letting it contest the objective. But umm - I'd rather not!

 

I didn't say to ignore them. I said to either avoid them or put what it takes to kill them towards killing them--and that what it takes to kill them is going to be a lot of stuff. I also said not to get overly worked up about them. They have a limited threat range and they can only do so much. Focusing too much on killing them can be as big a mistake as ignoring them, and including units in your list specifically to take them out (as with the Terminator squad you suggested earlier) is usually going to be a bad idea, unless you have a specific list to tailor against.

 

I never suggested that you play like an idiot. =P

 

edit:

 

Minigun has a point--if they are in a Land Raider, you really can't ignore them--their threat range is way too high. You will have to kill that land raider, and you should do so even if it involves feeding something to the terminators by getting close enough to blow the raider reliably. Deep striking obliterators or combi-melta terminators, or a charging DP are two of the better options. Vindicators do well against Raiders as well, and can do it from a safe distance.

[chillin]

Do you really think a good general is going to let you ignore SS/TH termies?

What if . . shock . .

What if . . . shock . .

(double shock!).

 

Only one here that said anything about ignoring them is you.

Don't know what all the "what if...shock" is about, but it makes you sound abit like a ween, especially since everyone here has taken their time to answer your Q, and giving you suggestions on how to deal with SS termi's.

But I give up, if you so convienced that the 20 or so suggestions you've been given here just won't work (despite the fact that they work for others) then I guess it is hopeless and SS termi's can't be countered or killed (except one of my regular opponents won't even use them against me anymore b/c it's a huge pts sink that I always shut down). Seriously, you act like none of us has ever played,and beaten, a squad of tooled up SS termi's w/ character before, and only you know how dangerous and tough they really are.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I am going to put forward the position that TH/SS terminators simply are not dangerous enough to be bothered about. Their only strength is in their durability. But that only ever comes up if you fight them. Imagine the following scenarios:

 

Footslogging:

 

In most standard deployments, if you are as close to your opponent as possible and they put the terminators as close as possible they are going to be 18-24 inches away. Given the average movement of 6 inches and a 3.5 inch run, that is 2-3 turns they have to spend moving towards you before they can engage, unless you help close the distance. If your troops are in transports (which they should be) you should have no issues avoiding them. It might be annoying, but i'm happy to let my opponent spend 200 pts just to be annoying.

 

Deepstriking:

 

They aren't going to come in for a couple turns. But unlike footslogging, they don't create an area you have to avoid. They can be disruptive when they come in, but any unit should be able to simply move out of their assault range after they DS. If they average coming in te 3rd turn, they don't even get to act until the 4th. DSing, they are only really a threat to units that are already locked, or to units camping objectives. The point though is that they are only going to be there half the game. You've had your full 1500 pts fighting the enemies 1300 pts until then, which means you should have a significant advantage by the time they show up. If you are losing they make it worse, but if you are winning they won't matter much.

 

Landraider:

 

Sure they'll get in your face. but then its a ~500 pt unit. But you only have to kill 200 pts worth of terminators to eliminate the effectiveness of all 500 pts, since raiders aren't that good alone. And single raiders are melta fodder, so this means raider rush, which has some very hard counters and is really a different subject.

 

In the two relevant situations to this discussion they are not on the board long enough to do much. In both they don't come into it until the 3-4th turn on average. Most of the games i play are already decided by then. Lets also take a look at their offensive power. 5 thunderhammers are intimidating for sure. But when you factor them out over the whole game are they going to be that effective? Lets be generous and let them get into combat on the 4th turn. In an average length game, that gives them 3 turns in CC. Assuming they don't take any losses, thats 30 hammer attacks, so 12.5 kills against MEQs. Thats like 1 squad of guys. They won't have time to move to a new combat. So 1 squad of guys, that already got to take 3-4 turns of action before dying. Big freakin deal.

 

So, the cost of ignoring that 200 pt unit (effectively making the game 1500 vs 1300 remember) means that at the end of the game you lose a squad to them. Now, i'm not trying to downplay that this can matter. If that was your objective holding squad, or even if it wasn't but they are now contesting, that can be a pain in the ass. But the price they pay for dropping an annoyance on your objective halfway through the game is fighting you with an inferior army for the first half of it. And that half of it is more important.

 

Hammer terminators have their uses, but they are very specialized. Often my opponent would be better served by just using another tac squad.

[lorider2]

None of the posters in this thread have presented any odds at all--much less decent ones.

 

15 lesser summoned daemons actually do have pretty reasonable odds of winning, though. I don't know what they are, exactly (and no one has posted those odds) but looking at the expected returns, they do stand a shot at it.

 

When I said odds I meant posts like that one which broke down the mathhammer (odds) for expected kills. Why do you say no one gave "decent" odds then state the daemons suggestion has "pretty reasonable odds"? I'm not following you here. Because if 15 daemons is "reasonable" - I could get 20 for 260 points, be within the bounds of my thread (300 points), and by your own statement my odds would be more than reasonable. <_<

 

Only one here that said anything about ignoring them is you.

Don't know what all the "what if...shock" is about, but it makes you sound abit like a ween, especially since everyone here has taken their time to answer your Q, and giving you suggestions on how to deal with SS termi's.

But I give up, if you so convienced that the 20 or so suggestions you've been given here just won't work (despite the fact that they work for others) then I guess it is hopeless and SS termi's can't be countered or killed (except one of my regular opponents won't even use them against me anymore b/c it's a huge pts sink that I always shut down). Seriously, you act like none of us has ever played,and beaten, a squad of tooled up SS termi's w/ character before, and only you know how dangerous and tough they really are.

 

Several people said avoid them and one said ignore -

 

to take them down, or counter them, or avoid them.

 

 

A lot of usefull stuff has already been said.

Either concentrate with as much as possible on them in 1 turn, which simply destoys them or ignore them

 

 

Just kill them or avoid them like you would anything else.

 

Is avoid really that different from ignore? or for that matter would a good general let you "avoid" his termies - or any unit in his army? I totally admited they are not invincible and have expressed appreciation for everyone's suggestions. But simply really put, I am clearly looking for unit counters. I know I might be best to concentrate elsewhere or use numbers - and have said so from the start. It is a little exasperating to hear over and over again to avoid them and vaguely shoot them down over time from a safe distance. Its not bad advice at all, as often that will work. But I fielding thoughts for the times that can't be done and is just not at all what this thread was about. So thanks again, but I want to find a semi-close (200-300 point) unit counter - it can be shooting, CC, or a mix of both. If you can't think of one - why post?

 

_________________________________________________________________________

 

Drudge - Great post. I don't disagree with anything you said. However, while I totally respect your opinion I think you are over focusing on 1300 v 1500. First, it really isn't often that great of an advantage because, especially early on, a good chunk of your army isn't effective at 24 inches. Some of your army - like DS melta and oblits (both faily expensive!) - might not be on the board yet just like the termies. So then its 1300 v your 1200, and his unit in reserve can counter yours better! Also, your opponent might plan for fighting 1300 v1500 for a few turns. It not really that hard IMO. For example, keeping the important parts of his army in out of sight, simply in reserve, or they might all specialize in long range fighting - devs, tri-las preds, missile speeders, shooting dreads, etc. Even if none of this is the case, this isn't regular warfare, the winner is decided simply by KPs and objectives. If I destroy 900 of his points and I have lost 400 - but he is contesting my objective with 3 DS TH/SS termies and his objective with a speeder held in reserve - its a tie game. As you readily admit simply fielding that one TH/SS squad can mean I lose a unit or have an objective contested. Simply put - I'd like to not have to deal with that pain in the ass! It greatly increases the chances for a tie game (we don't play VPs) . . . though I'll admit probably not a loss .

 

I play a lot of SM players and it wouldn't change my list too much to have one unit with "decent" odds at countering the termies. I believe this is possible, though not a lock. I'd prefer a troop unit because that way even if not used for the purpose (I will try and avoid or take pot shots when possible), they can hold an objective.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Well, you have highlighted exactly why i don't use reserve units much, except for some lesser daemons in my fluff list. Assuming you are using them though, remember that our reserves have an advantage due to being ranged based (termicide, oblits) or that they get more accurate deepstrikes due to icons. Remember that those assault terminators are still running all the risks of a deepstrike. Unless the SM shelled out for teleport homers (which cost a lot more than our icons) there's a fair chance they will be forced to come in somewhere useless or mishap. Somebody once calculated the chance of this happening (it was a bit of an approximation) but it was a fairly high one.

 

As for them planning to fight outnumbered for a bit, that works perfectly for me. If they are holding back and trying to stay out of sight i get given map control and a chance to pick my terrain. If they are set up for long range fighting i'll laugh because gunline isn't very ineffective, and is even less effective when you are down a ranged squad in favor of a pure melee squad. I also don't run a melee centered list (i play slaanesh fluff lists usually) so i'm not faced with the same issues of not being effective turn one that most chaos armies do.

 

So you are right, there are things they can do. But they all equate to making their army revolve around a 200 pt unit that doesn't even show up for awhile. This is an immediate advantage to me no matter how you look at it. Is it a big advantage or an instant win? No. But all else being equal you'll win because of it.

 

But anyway, to answer your original question posed in the thread, the 150 pt winged lash sorc is the best counter. DPs will get shot down. A sorc can hide either by LOS or in a unit and just control the terminators. Coupled with previously stated things, i find 1 lash is usually enough to make the terminators not matter for the rest of the game.

[chillin]

Is avoid really that different from ignore? or for that matter would a good general let you "avoid" his termies -

 

So thanks again, but I want to find a semi-close (200-300 point) unit counter - it can be shooting, CC, or a mix of both. If you can't think of one - why post?

 

Sorry, I didn't know that you didn't know the difference between avoid and ignor. Avoid is the active use of tactics in order to not let his termi's kill their pts worth. Bog them down with say daemons, move units away from them, bottle them up with empty rino, etc.

Ignor is passive, pretend they are not there.

As to what general would let you "avoid" his termi's, a good general would know the answer to that Q. It's not up to your opponent to

let you do anything. That's like saying "what good general would let you shot his squad", "what good general would let you out manuver him", "what good general would let you win the game".

 

As to me not being able to think of one .... ? are you :cuss kidding me ? I gave you 5 units and unit combo's to take them down, not to mention telling you other ways to deal with them. Have you actually tried any of them ? Or anyone elses for that matter ? Or are you too busy writting 8 replies about how none of the dozens of things anyone has suggested will work ?

As to why I post...it was to help you out with a squad you said you have problems against that I have beaten over and over again.

But you would rather give reasons why nothing will work, without trying anything, I'll waste no more of my time

[IronWinds]

15 lesser demons. Since they pop out of thin air lets give them the charge.

 

45 attacks, 22.5 hit, 11.25 wound, 1.875 die.

 

3.125 attack back. 6.25 attacks, 3.125 hits, 2.6 wounds, 1.736 banished demons.

 

Since they are so close I won't do no retreat wounds.

 

13.26 lesser demons. 26.527 attacks, 13.26 hits, 6.63 wounds, 1.105 dead termies.

 

2.02 termies attack back. 4.04 attacks, 2.02 hits, 1.6833 wounds, 1.122 banished demons.

 

Tied combat... since demons outnumber that is a very bad thing for terminators because scales will slide more and more in demons favor.

 

12.142 demons vs 2.02 terminators....

 

Ok I'm done, it is pretty obvious what happens. Demons win.

 

 

Now I have never had a problem with TH/SS termies. I never underestimate my basic marines. I guess my earlier post about some CSMs and bezerkers taking on 6TH/SS termies + SW HQ in termy armor + Grimnar + Crusader was ignored. So here is math.

 

10 CSMs: Champ:PW+combi flamer, IoCG, 2 Flamers 210pts

 

vs 5 TH/SS termies. 200pts

 

3 flamer shots: 15 hits, 7.5 wounds, 1.25 dead termies.

7 bolt pistol shot: 4.666 hits, 2.333 wounds, .38888 dead termies.

 

Total so far: 1.63 dead termies.

 

CSMs charge.

4 PW attacks, 2 hit, 1 wound, .333 dead termies.

27 Marine attacks, 13.5 hits, 6.75 wounds, 1.125 dead termies.

 

Total so far: 3.088 dead termies.

 

1.912 termies attack back. 3.824 attacks, 1.912 hits, 1.5933 dead marines.

 

CSMs lost combat by less than 1, combined with IoCG very unlikely to run.

 

Assault phase 2: 8.4066 CSMs:

3 PW attacks, 1.5 hit, .75 wound, .25 dead termies.

7.4066 marines, 14.81 attacks, 7.4066 hits, 3.7033 wounds, .61722 dead termies.

 

Total so far: 3.95522 dead termies.

 

1.044 termies attack back.

2.0895 attacks, 1.04478 hits, .87065 dead marines.

 

Tied combat, no one has to take Ld check.

 

Assault phase 3:

7.535 marines attack back.

 

3 PW attacks, 1.5 hit, .75 wound, .25 dead termies.

6.535 marines, 13.07 attacks, 6.535 hits, 3.2675 wounds, .54458 dead termies.

 

Total so far: 4.7498 dead. I doubt the remaining .2502 termy is going to do much against 7.535 chaos marines.

 

Thank You! Your welcome. Just use your basic marines. If you really want them dead have two squads go for the kill at the same time. Thats how I took out 6+HQ+Grimnar. Yes they are nasty, but they are still just termies and die like termies. 2+ svs are great, but a 6 sided die does have a 1 on it and if you make them roll enough they will roll that 1.

 

 

The problem is NOT how powerful this unit is. Its how reliant on plasma CSM players have become. People assume there is 1 uber thing for killing every enemy. They expect bezerkers, plague marines w/ plasma, defilers, obliterators, and Lash princes to kill anything pt for pt that pops up on the board. I'm sorry, not always going to happen, you might have to kill an enemy the old fashion way... just shooting him with bolters and cutting him with chainswords till he fails some saves. And honestly... there is 1 thing for killing every enemy, I call it the Chaos Space Marine ;) .

 

 

If I destroy 900 of his points and I have lost 400 - but he is contesting my objective with 3 DS TH/SS termies and his objective with a speeder held in reserve - its a tie game.

 

It is 3 terminators! Shoot them, assault them, do whatever, they are just terminators, if you have 1100 pts left it should be easy. 1100pts vs one 120pt squad, I hope that is manageble.

 

 

Feel lucky, some armies have very little ap2 weaponry and they have this problem against all terminators, not just the ones with storm shields.

 

This is not hard. If you have a well balanced army you should have an easy time reacting to any threat, especially one that only moves 6" and has not ranged capabilites. And finally this squad excells against big expensive scary things... like enemy terminators, demon princes, monstrous creatures, etc. They are not that good against cheap things that can easily outnumber them. Thats why out of everything chaos has lesser demons and CSMs do the best, they are cheap and can outnumber them easily. Even cheaper units will do even better.

 

Just to prove my theory. And no, not nids, not orks, not mutant hordes, I'll go with the hth unit of the shootiest army... which happens to be pretty shooty for a hth unit.

 

25 kroot+shaper: 203pts

 

Kroot don't shoot and I'll give the charge to the terminators just to put everything in the terminators favor :cuss .

 

Shaper 4 attacks.

25 kroot, 2 attacks.

 

54 attacks, 27 hit, 13.5 wound, 2.25 dead terminators.

 

2.75 termies attack back. 8.25 attacks, 4.125 hit, 3.4375 dead kroot.

 

Ok kroot lost combat, and might fall back... but giving the terminators every other possible advantage I'll let the kroot pass their Ld check.

 

21.5625 kroot 2 attacks each + shapers 4 attacks= 47.125 attacks.

 

23.56 hits, 11.78 wounds, 1.96 dead terminators. 4.2 dead so far. Yup... I think the kroot will win. And I didn't have the kroot shoot them, which they would have done twice since terminators move so slow... and not consdering the kroot would have Tau backing them up with even more firepower.

 

Just for giggles, kroot charge. 80 attacks. 40 hits, 20 wounds, 3.333 dead terminators.

 

KROOT, that is the answer, find the old rules for kroot mercs and have them kill the terminators J/K.

 

On a serious note, they are good against big expensive things, not hordes of cheap stuff. Keep your DP away from them, let lesser demons and CSMs kill them. There is no secret answer, just an obvious one. Kill them how you kill anything else.

[lorider2]

Is avoid really that different from ignore? or for that matter would a good general let you "avoid" his termies - As to me not being able to think of one .... ? are you :cuss kidding me ? Or anyone elses for that matter ? Or are you too busy writting 8 replies about how none of the dozens of things anyone has suggested will work ?

 

chilin, sorry I forgot your page 1 post about naked CSM and a few others, my apologies. But in fairness you gave that after several of the answers I was referring to and followed it up with more of the same. Also, I did thank many of the people who gave unit advice and agreed with several of them. I'm not shooting down everything in any way, shape, or form. I'm just trying to state I understand how generally to deal with termies perfectly fine, I would just prefer having a unit counter I can pretty much count on, just in case. Be prepared - you know. :D

 

 

If I destroy 900 of his points and I have lost 400 - but he is contesting my objective with 3 DS TH/SS termies and his objective with a speeder held in reserve - its a tie game.

 

It is 3 terminators! Shoot them, assault them, do whatever, they are just terminators, if you have 1100 pts left it should be easy. 1100pts vs one 120pt squad, I hope that is manageble. . . . Thats why out of everything chaos has lesser demons and CSMs do the best, they are cheap and can outnumber them easily.

 

Ironwinds - I meant at the end of the game, perhaps even the last turn if he went second. Sure, if it was really 1100 v 120 and few turns it would be a cinch. But if I have one troop choice and say an elite or heavy choice holding my objective, the rest on the other end and he drops down turn 4/5 in decent position . . . it will be hard to hold my objective. Impossible - no. But as CSM we have don't have speeders, only bikes which can turbo only around terrain and then at the cost of shooting. If he went Dev heavy my rhinos might be popped. Massed Sonic blasers with a 30" effective range would be AWESOME here, but almost all the other troops (perhaps anything short of Vindis) would be pretty ineffective if he dropped in the right place. Also, if I left severalctroop choices nursing, sure I could deal with the termies - but at the cost of fighting shorthanded everywhere else.

 

As far as ignoring your earlier post, nothing could be further from the truth. If you read between the lines my feeling on the best answer is exactly what you state - "cheap" troop choices, preferring flamers in particular. So props to you sir. B)

[Cale]

When I said odds I meant posts like that one which broke down the mathhammer (odds) for expected kills.

 

That may have been what you meant, but it isn't what you said. The difference between odds, which is an expression of the probability of an event--in this case, it would be the expression of the probability that the Daemons win--and what people posted is significant.

 

Why do you say no one gave "decent" odds then state the daemons suggestion has "pretty reasonable odds"? I'm not following you here. Because if 15 daemons is "reasonable" - I could get 20 for 260 points, be within the bounds of my thread (300 points), and by your own statement my odds would be more than reasonable. :huh:

 

I said no one gave decent odds because no one gave any odds at all. However, I suspect that, were you to actually work up odds on the daemons v. terminators fight, the daemons would have pretty reasonable odds. That would remain true if the number of daemons increased.

 

Given that, I'd be willing to revise my initial position to say that Daemons in sufficient numbers can be a reliable answer to TH/SS terminators, and that "sufficient numbers" includes a number which costs an amount which is not much greater than the cost of the TH/SS termies.

 

If we were to say 15 daemons, though, I suspect that the odds would only be about even.

 

Is avoid really that different from ignore? or for that matter would a good general let you "avoid" his termies - or any unit in his army?

 

Avoid is completely different from ignore, yes. To ignore something is to pay it no attention. To avoid it is to stay away from it--which requires paying attention to it. Further, no matter how good your opponent is, there's a limit to how far the Terminators move and where they can be. No amount of skill will make it impossible to avoid a slow threat if your units are sufficiently mobile (and, in a chaos list, they generally should be).

[Y'he Sha'is]

I used to play a footslogging 5-man terminator list (5 TH/SS) when I was a loyalist (BOO! BOO!). The goal of the list was to get people so worried about that squad that they would begin to make mistakes in target prioritization. I would talk them up about how tough and resilient they were, how dangerous, how awesome the painting is... blah blah blah. It's a basic premise, but it would even work in the early rounds of tournaments.

 

Meanwhile, the 3 squads in Razorbacks & the 1 assault squad could do their job of getting objectives and that sort of thing. Coupled with 2 vindies, and you have a decent 1500 point list that can get the job done... but this is CHAOS, right?! What I'm asking is "Is your opponent going all Night Lords/Alpha legion on you?"

 

Needless to say, the whole time I played that list, when a battlecannon or some other monsterous weapon would focus on the termies instead of my assault marines or tacticals, I'd just be thinking 'The Termies just earned their points back', even if they never kill a thing.

 

Is your opponent doing this to you? Are you sure?

 

I know this is old-fashioned, but ignore the footslogging terminators for a few rounds (maybe 3) and focus on the rest of the list. This gives you a 1500:1300 advantage right from the get-go. This will let you either claim the objectives later in the game with an advantage of mobility, or destroy so much of the rest of his army you can afford a turn to destroy the footsloggers with massive firepower later in the game (when you advantage might be at 1000:500).

 

Anyway, that's just a take from the other side of the coin. I loved reading things like this on forums, because it just made my list work that much better. Of course, now that I play chaos, when they have fleet I get a bit more worried.

[lorider2]

No amount of skill will make it impossible to avoid a slow threat if your units are sufficiently mobile (and, in a chaos list, they generally should be).

 

See, this is where I disagree. If you want to hold an uncontested objective, it really doesn't matter if you an Eldar skimmer that can move flat out and with star engines for 36 inches, because if at the start of his turn just one termie is within 12 inches of your unit/vehicle (or even 15 inches of the objective itself) he can possibly contest it. Likewise, if you want to kill in hth (or close range fire) something next to the termies - again what does greater mobility matter? Wether you win or lose, the termies will be able to charge you. Focus fire on the termies and that unit goes unmolested. IMO it really doesn't take a lot of skill or planning to "force" an opponent to confront even the slowest unit.

 

I know this is old-fashioned, but ignore the footslogging terminators for a few rounds (maybe 3) and focus on the rest of the list. This gives you a 1500:1300 advantage right from the get-go.

 

Again, I just think this is overstated. How many of your units are effective at long range? Some certainly, but many of my chaos units need to be in EXACTLY the same 12 inch range termies have to truly take advantage of their offensive abilities. Even if it was only 1-2 (aka almost any HQ selection not with lash and a babysitter unit) . .. typically that's going to be more than 200 points and thus negating the supposed 1500:1300 advantage.

[Strider]

Block them with a (moving) Landraider, tank shock them, use like 4 normal Terminators w. combi-plasmas etc.

 

Just don't waste too much points on disabling them.

 

If all else fails, just mass assault them with everything you have and they will die.

[Grey Mage]

Cost of the squad I killed: Who knows, cracked out termy HQ, Logan, 6 TH/SS termies and a crusader, probably a lot.

378+275+?+260pts- 913pts, plus whatever that *SW HQ thingy* is.

[the jeske]

How many of your units are effective at long range?

oblits , lash dps,termicid[not per see , but there is nothing the sm player can do about them] .+ even if the termis run at 24" you get one turn of normal shoting and one turn of double taping.

 

 

Focus fire on the termies and that unit goes unmolested.

there is no such thing as staying near an objective when chaos plays double lash. + you always go after the scoring unit. you charge the one next to the termis , they do a nice circle around your DP and termis will need 1 turn to go around the unit to charge. + due to oblits we can focus fire ont the termis 2-3 turns before they even get near an objective. unless they deep strike [but then they eat 4 plasma when landing].