Where does SM Firepower come from?

[Gornall]

I've been playing for a relatively short time (first of the year) and I'm curious as to how people think the SM codex is "best" played and what it's underlying strengths are. To this end, I've got a few questions that I would love to get people's feedback on. As a reference, most of our games around here are played in the 1850-2000 point range.

 

1. I've always been told that Marines are a shooty army first, with assault generally for clean up/last-resort. Do people generally find this to be true, and if so, where do most people get their shooting ability from? Fast Attack like Attack Bikes and Landspeeders, Heavy Support from Predators/Whirlwinds/TFCS, Elites like Sternguard and Dreadnoughts, or just Bolter Brothers and Razorbacks? What kind of firepower is it (ACs/MLS/PGs/MGs/etc), and how much is "enough"?

 

2. Do people build in dedicated assault elements into their army, and if so, how much and what kinds? Almost all of my 1500 points and up lists include a LR of some variety with TH/SS Termies, and I'm not sure if this is actually needed or simply a eggs-in-basket points sink.

 

3. What do people feel the strengths of the SM codex are, and how do they capitilize on them? Personally, I think their mobility with Attack Bikes, Landspeeders, and cheap transports is a major strong suit, but I'm curious to see what other people think their advantages are.

 

4. What playstyles fit SM the best? Close-range firefights, long-range sniping, assault, etc? Do these vary based on your opponent? And do you design your list to try to accomplish all of them, or simply focus on one?

 

5. What are the major "competitive" builds at the 1850 range? I've seen a lot of Vulkan love with 3 Tac Squads, some TH/SS Termies, and other elements added to taste, but what are some of the other common builds?

 

Any other general Marine wisdom is also greatly appreciated.

[Grey Mage]

1) All of what you listed are good, but some are better than others. Devastators, particularly in cover, have more survivability than just about any other model there. Attack Bikes and speeders are always a good investment, but wich one depends on your playstyle. Whirlwinds... ahh whirlwinds- there should be one in every C:SM list, ever. Predators, Vindicators, and Dreads are all dependent on your own playstyle, but i have to say that Dreads are some of the best units in the game.

 

2) I would say that everything is built around troops in my armies. For each Troop unit Ill allow two support units- For instance a basic army could be a pair of tactical squads, a chaplin, an assault squad, a whirlwind, and a dreadnaught with AC+HF. Dedicated assault units, like assault marines, can be useful, but spamming alot of them is usually counterproductive, as when facing dedicated assault armies like Khorne, Orks, and Nidz your at a disadvantage. Still, I think you should have about 1/4 of your support units as assault units, preferably mounted, bikes, or jumppacking.

 

3) Flexability. Marine units are incredibly flexable in their design and utilization. If you make your squads appropriately you can field them in such a way as to be able to potentially handle any situation, and when supporting each other the army as a whole should have no real weakness. Of course, many dont see this, or build there lists in such a manner... wich is why I win tournaments.

 

4) Im what many on this board refer to as a "water warrior" so Im going to tell you something- it always depends on the opponent. Only orks have a plan of attack that will survive contact with the enemy. That being said you can do anything you listed, and a few more, with the C:SM list. It all depends on what YOU as the player want. Would you like a fast, mobile, and deadly force? Horrid amounts of firepower to make an IG player blush? Units that simply wont die or run? About the only thing a standard marine lists truely lacks is superb assault units, and you can build effective ones anyways.

 

5) I make all my lists from scratch... that being said, I enjoy Pedro Kantor, with 2 Tac Squads, 2 Sterngaurd, 2x2 Attack bikes, a Whirlwind, a Dreadnaught, a Scout Squad, LSS, and a librarian. It fits my playstyle, and has worked well for me....

But theres Pedro Drop pods, Khan outflanking, Khan/tigurious super outflank. Half a battle company, full battle companies, etc. The real question is what do you want?

 

 

From your questions it sounds like you want something fast, mobile, and assaulty. For that I might reccommend the up and coming Blood Angels, or Black Templars over C:SM. On the other hand a Good list led by a biker captain would also do the job rather well, and you could do it now with some of the nice C:SM toys.

 

I cant say enough good things about MM attack bikes though. I sorely miss them with the update to C:SW.

 

About 1/2 of the units in the game cant hurt a Dreadnaught, and a few more cant in CC either once you get there.

 

Try to make your units cover 3/4 things- strength, durability, speed, scoring.

 

Strength- wether CC or Ranged, by number of attacks or strength of attacks the unit should excell at killing things.

Durability- Does the unit have alot of wounds? 2+ armor saves with a 5+ invulnerable? High Toughness? Feel no Pain? Units described as "durable" shoudl be good at not dying, not being crippled and not being reduced to ineffectiveness.

Speed- Are they mounted in a transport, on a bike, a fast moving skimmer? Every list needs some mobility, and in their way a fast unit must provide this- wether flanking heavy weapons of a speeder or the movement improvements of a rhino mounted tactical squad.

Scoring- Scoring units are an advantage all their own.

 

Some units can be all of the above- like a well outfitted squad of bikers. Still, you should endeavour to make all your units to fulfill 3/4 of those in some way. This is half of the way I win 3/4 tournaments I show up for. The other half is knowing your foe and having a good instinct for how to kill things while keeping your head for objectives.

[Vaktathi]

1. I've always been told that Marines are a shooty army first, with assault generally for clean up/last-resort. Do people generally find this to be true, and if so, where do most people get their shooting ability from? Fast Attack like Attack Bikes and Landspeeders, Heavy Support from Predators/Whirlwinds/TFCS, Elites like Sternguard and Dreadnoughts, or just Bolter Brothers and Razorbacks? What kind of firepower is it (ACs/MLS/PGs/MGs/etc), and how much is "enough"?

For the most part, loyalist SM's tend to be more shooting than assault oriented, however their strengths lie in that they can outshoot what they can't outfight and outfight what they can't outshoot. This means that against some opponents they will do very well primarily through shooting, but against others you will need to bring the fight to them and engage in assaults. Don't try to outshoot Imperial Guard armies for instance (it won't end well for the SM army), but rather get in close, and assault anything and everything that you can using your shooting abilit to set up and support assaults, not your primary method of target destruction. Likewise, don't try and defeat a Green Tide in CC (again, bad idea for the SM army), but maneuver around it as best you can and shoot it to death before finishing it off in CC on your terms.

 

Your basic SM units do pretty well at providing short ranged firepower, Devestator squads are excellent and hardy units, albeit not cheap either. Dreads are always good to have, Whirlwinds are useful mainly by being cheap. Predators are hit and miss but aren't terrible. Razorbacks are good firepower additions but should be seen as supplemental. Sternguard make good big tank/MC killers but should be seen as generally expendable in such roles.

 

Shooting will probably be 60-70% of your power, but CC still will be a strong component, varying with opponent type.

 

 

2. Do people build in dedicated assault elements into their army, and if so, how much and what kinds? Almost all of my 1500 points and up lists include a LR of some variety with TH/SS Termies, and I'm not sure if this is actually needed or simply a eggs-in-basket points sink.

CC elements in SM lists tend to vary wildly on their effectiveness. Stuff like Assault terminators tend to be best utilized against other MEQ armies, while cheaper guys like assault marines will do just as well if not better against opponents like IG, Tau, Orks, etc where all the power weapons and high S attacks are irrelevant. Really, in all honesty, much of the Space Marine CC elements are best used against other Marines, and will often be mediocre against non-SM armies.

 

3. What do people feel the strengths of the SM codex are, and how do they capitilize on them? Personally, I think their mobility with Attack Bikes, Landspeeders, and cheap transports is a major strong suit, but I'm curious to see what other people think their advantages are.

Land Speeders, Cheap Rhino's, ATSKNF, Vulkan-spam (this guy gets really old seeing him time after time in almost everyone's list in almost every chapter imaginable) Combat squads, **Drop Pod Dreads, especially Ironclads**, and Thunderfire cannons are all great units. Most things are pretty situational, but you can make all of the above work in pretty much every SM list.

 

 

4. What playstyles fit SM the best? Close-range firefights, long-range sniping, assault, etc? Do these vary based on your opponent? And do you design your list to try to accomplish all of them, or simply focus on one?

close range firefights have always been the SM's hallmarks, with a secondary CC element that's still very important. If you primarily want long range shooting play Imperial Guard, they will do it better in every way every time. Due to the nature of Space Marines, their sweet spot is 12-18" due to the nature of their weapons, their capabilities in CC, and their transports (either rhino's or drop pods).

 

5. What are the major "competitive" builds at the 1850 range? I've seen a lot of Vulkan love with 3 Tac Squads, some TH/SS Termies, and other elements added to taste, but what are some of the other common builds?

Vulkan spam mainly :/ Shrike builds are also pretty decent, but the majority of what I've seen are Vulkan builds.

[Giga]

1. I've always been told that Marines are a shooty army first, with assault generally for clean up/last-resort. Do people generally find this to be true, and if so, where do most people get their shooting ability from? Fast Attack like Attack Bikes and Landspeeders, Heavy Support from Predators/Whirlwinds/TFCS, Elites like Sternguard and Dreadnoughts, or just Bolter Brothers and Razorbacks? What kind of firepower is it (ACs/MLS/PGs/MGs/etc), and how much is "enough"?

4. What playstyles fit SM the best? Close-range firefights, long-range sniping, assault, etc? Do these vary based on your opponent? And do you design your list to try to accomplish all of them, or simply focus on one?

Vanilla marines seem like a primarily a shooty army because, unlike space wolves and chaos marines, our primary troops (tactical squads) don't have close combat weapons, so they get only 1 attack each (2 if they assault). Which is pretty pathetic, even against stuff like IG (I had my tacticals get beaten in assault by IG veterans once).

 

Marines are jacks of all trades, but masters of none. Vanilla marines in particular don't do anything especially good, but they're above-average at everything.

 

Hence, when playing marines, you play more to your opponents weaknesses then you play at your own strengths. This means your strategy changes against different opponents. Against IG, Necrons and Tau, for example, your best bet is to rush into close combat with them. Against CSM, SW, Templars, Tyranids, Orks etc. your plan is to avoid close combat with them and to shoot them to pieces before they get to assault you.

 

The best way to do this is by utilizing powerful anti-tank/MC (speeders, attack bikes) to pop their transport and destroy the big close-combat hitters, while at the same time being capable of staying out of their effective assault range. Then you utilize your powerful anti-infantry (tactical squads with combiflamers and flamers are great at this, and then multiple heavy flamers from speeders also do the job), and eventually go in with your hammer unit (th/ss termies, vulkan, and a LR) and mop up whatever is left.

 

Basically, the idea is not to completely kill an opponent with shooting (we're not IG or Tau, after all). It's to get to rapid fire them before they can properly shoot/assault you, and in this way to weaken them and make it impossible for them to put up a proper counter-attack.

2. Do people build in dedicated assault elements into their army, and if so, how much and what kinds? Almost all of my 1500 points and up lists include a LR of some variety with TH/SS Termies, and I'm not sure if this is actually needed or simply a eggs-in-basket points sink.

A LR with termies isn't simply a dedicated assault element. It's a master unit+tank that can kill anything, survive most shooting, and draw the attention of your opponent. Having a LR classic with Th/ss termies inside is, in my opinion, almost mandatory in most 5th ed vanilla lists. You don't even have to ever disembark those termies from the LR. The threat of them being there will drive most opponents nuts. I say you should keep it.

 

Otherwise, there aren't really any good assault units in vanilla codex. Honor guard seem cool on paper, but they're infantry-killers, and vanilla marines already have tons of that. Assault marines are pretty weak IMHO, and vanguard and command squads (when kitted out for assault) are overpriced. Shooty termis have weak shooting and weak invulnerable save, which makes them not very good for the points.

3. What do people feel the strengths of the SM codex are, and how do they capitilize on them? Personally, I think their mobility with Attack Bikes, Landspeeders, and cheap transports is a major strong suit, but I'm curious to see what other people think their advantages are.

Synergy.

 

Unlike most other codexes, our HQs (special characters in particular) are made to support the army itself. The units themselves also support each other better then they do in other codexes. Thanks to this, you can make immensely powerful armies simply because units boost each other. Few other armies have this level of internal synergy.

5. What are the major "competitive" builds at the 1850 range? I've seen a lot of Vulkan love with 3 Tac Squads, some TH/SS Termies, and other elements added to taste, but what are some of the other common builds?

Vulkan lists are very nice because they're so reliable and because they have such nice synergy. In 1750 pts, I roll with 3 tac squads, 5 th/ss termies, vulkan, a LR classic, 3 mm/hf speeders, and 3 mm attack bikes. Won a local tournament with that.

 

Pedro phalanx is very strong, too, again mainly because of synergy. Get two tac squads, 5 th/ss termies in a LR, pedro, a big 10 men squad of sternguard with two heavy flamers, 3 mm/hf speeders, and a couple mm attack bikes or a predator or vindicator or something, can pretty much move around together, dishing out the same damage a regular SM army can do, BUT also having scoring sternguard and +1 attack aura.

 

Bike lists, particularly white scars, can be very very powerful if you know how to play them. However, they're sadly screwed up by all those dual lash lists on major tournaments. :D

[gravmania]

1st off, Devastators are bad!.

They're overly expensive and more importantly, they compete with dakkaPredators (autocannon/H.Bolter sponsons) for Heavy slots.

I can take 2 dakkaPreds for the price of 1 Devastator squad. If you want devastators, play Spacewolves instead..

 

Good SM builds include lots of Mech, its what the codex is all about.

Mech or all-bike armies.

Marines do not play hybrid (Mech+foot) well.

A Scout unit on foot with camocloack/sniperrifles can be handy for sitting on the home objective but otherwise it should have a transport.

 

Some of the best units in the codex are:

 

MM/HF Dreads

2x autocannon Dreads

 

DakkaPreds

 

MM/HF Landspeeders

HB/Typhoon Landspeeders

 

MM/flamer tac squad with Rhino for 205 points, powerfists and such are ovevly expensive. You'll want your tac squad to lose combat so you can fall back and have your army shoot the enemy.

 

SS/TH terminators in a Raider but you'll probably need 2 of these as 1 will die aesily to all the melta floating around nowadays.

 

My fav HQ is:

MOTF with conversionbeamer. The only real shooty HQ in de codex.

[traitor_dice]

Only orks have a plan of attack that will survive contact with the enemy.

 

sigged,

 

I think I'm a minority, but I very, very rarely take any vehicles (other than dreads) in most games. I play an entirely infantry based force. I know it may sound weird, but I've never seen a need for tanks.

 

anti tank?

hell, i took out a friend's fire prism with a lucky shot from the plasma gun in a command squad.

 

monstrous creatures?

 

I had one game where a hive tyrant rampaged across the table, scaled the wall of a fort, only to be killed by the lone seargant from a tac squad.

 

when i do take tanks, i take land raiders (various variants) and generally only in apoc.

 

my point is it takes alot of improvisation, but its entirely possible to play quite well without tanks, or in many other ways.

 

you cant exactly categorise marines like you're trying to, because marines themselves are meant to be a jack-of-all-trades kind of army.

 

want speed? take a bike list with the white scars IC.

 

want lots of flame and anti tank? take a vulkan list.

 

want an assaulty army? take shrike.

 

the idea of marines is that they can take the tools for the job, or have the tactical flexability to handle almost anything. this shows in the whole list, right down to the weapons you choose for your tac squads. the water warrior is perhaps the best view for playing a "balanced" marine list, but it takes some practice to work out what should be used to target what etc.

 

1. generally, in 5th ed yes. in 4th it was possible to make an all CC army using the traits, but not anymore.

 

2. yes, but they are generally in "niche" roles, used to support the bulk of the army.

 

3. the strengths of the SM codex are variety and flexability. not only is a tac squad superior to many other armie's troop choices on a one to one scale, but the tac squad also has a huge variety of weapon options.

 

4. sniping and assault as pure army styles dont quite work (i.e, spamming devs, scouts or assault marines generally doesn't go down well.) this is mainly because of the 5th ed changes (only troops can take objectives, and no more CC armed tac squads.) the biggest difference between armies (IMO) is how they get to the fight, or whether they do at all. for example, a Khan army speeds toward the enemy on bikes, while a Pedro list generally isnt as mobile. you also get the occasional vulkan army that waits for the enemy to come to them before "IMMA FIRIN' MAH FLAMERZ/MELTAZ!" the enemy, and then counter assault with their TH/SS termies.

 

5. generally, the IC builds (especially vulkan and Khan seem to do well.)

 

over all the SM list isnt what it can do, its what you want or need it to do.

[minigun762]

Here is my thoughts as a Chaos player

 

1. I've always been told that Marines are a shooty army first, with assault generally for clean up/last-resort. Do people generally find this to be true, and if so, where do most people get their shooting ability from?

Dreadnoughts, Tactical Terminators, Land Speeders, Attack Bikes, Predators, Vindicators, Land Raiders. You have tons of options. The main thing will be to group your shooting into anti-infantry and anti-tank categories and make sure you have enough of both. As a Chaos player, I'm very jealous of sane Dreadnoughts and Multi-Melta Speeders/Bikes in particular.

 

2. Do people build in dedicated assault elements into their army, and if so, how much and what kinds? Almost all of my 1500 points and up lists include a LR of some variety with TH/SS Termies, and I'm not sure if this is actually needed or simply a eggs-in-basket points sink.

Since Tactical squads aren't great at assaulting things, I really think Loyalist SHOULD have a dedicated counter-assault unit. My first thought is always the standard Assault squads. 10 Marines, 2 Flamers and a Power Fist is a great multi-taskers and jump packs let you keep up with Rhinos. Another choice that doesn't get alot of attention is BP/CCW/Shotgun Scouts with a Power Fist.

 

3. What do people feel the strengths of the SM codex are, and how do they capitilize on them? Personally, I think their mobility with Attack Bikes, Landspeeders, and cheap transports is a major strong suit, but I'm curious to see what other people think their advantages are.

Solid troops, Scoring Biker armies, cheap long range firepower with Predators and Dreads, fast moving AV14 killers with MM Speeders/Bikes and awesome Land Raiders.

 

4. What playstyles fit SM the best? Close-range firefights, long-range sniping, assault, etc? Do these vary based on your opponent? And do you design your list to try to accomplish all of them, or simply focus on one?

I think of a generic SM build being about phases. Phase 1, long range firepower to kill transports and weaken the enemy. Phase 2 is short range firepower. Phase 3 is counter assaulting.

 

5. What are the major "competitive" builds at the 1850 range? I've seen a lot of Vulkan love with 3 Tac Squads, some TH/SS Termies, and other elements added to taste, but what are some of the other common builds?

I know I see alot of armies with either Vulkan or Pedro in them, and thats because TH/SS Terminators/Land Raider and Sternguard/Drop Pod are both powerful units. Other "standards" are usually the drop pod Ironcla and MM Speeders/Attack Bikes. Toss in some Whirlwinds, Dakka Predators or TFC for anti-horde duty and you should be set.