Gornall Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 The Chapter Master thread has inspired me to finally try and field Calgar in a competitive army list. I'm looking to build an 1850 army around Calgar and 5 Honor Guard (Champion w/ Relic Blade and Banner as the only upgrades) and I'm kind of at a loss of how to go about it. Do I need to put them in a LR of some sort or can I simply Rhino/Razorback rush (I have the PA Calgar model)? Would I be better off going with a more shooty list or simply trying to smash heads with them? I thought about running them in a Razorback and having a LR with TH/SS Termies for pure H2H beat downs, but figured that might not work really well. Do they need a Libby/Chappy to work, or can they do well enough by themselves? I know several people have used similar setups with success, and I was curious if anyone could provide insight on what seemed to work best for them. I've got a list up for review at: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...p;#entry2189402 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 Calgar in TDA or PA? I presume you mean PA as you're considering a Rhino/Razorback as a ride. Keep in mind that the Honorguard is awesome at WS5, PWs, and 2+ saves...but they have no Invuln of any kind so they are a poor unit for taking on anything MEQ with power weapons. Squads without power weapons they will *mess up* pretty fast. The Honor Guard is a clean up crew and a support unit, they are not a vanguard (neither in name nor literally). The Banner is their real strength, as rerolling the marine's already exceptional LD is pretty tight. It is however not nearly as necessary with Calgar on the table. Calgar is a beast. Standing still he can take 5 PW attacks or 5 PF attacks, and in both cases he rerolls to-wound. Couple that with his 4+ armor and his truly nasty pair of Storm Bolters (AP2 at 24"? Yes, please.) I have more than once sent him off on his own and he has handily toppled tanks or units of guys who are not tooled for melee. His real strength in my opinion is that he and all models in his army can choose whether to pass or fail any Morale checks they're called upon to take. Not having to roll is WAY better than a reroll. The Honor Guard can take Aux Grenade Launchers which are kind of cool, but in my opinion they make a poor "Honor Guard" as they have no ability to soak the truly painful hits (they have no ability to take invuln saves). When I do take an HG they will be a clean up crew. My escort for Calgar will likely remain the footslogging Vanguard. I once put him with Grey Knights which worked VERY well. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 In brief (sorry I'm busy): Calgar is what you can use as an equaliser to help your Honour Guard survive longer in CC. He strikes at I5 if he wants at WS6, with 5 "lightning claw" attacks (6 on the charge) in this unit. I agree with thade that Honour Guard, operating on their own, are not a vanguard unit, but attached a Character in there and they quickly become one. This is because the benefits of Honour Guard become heightened with attached ICs, especially I5 ones. I have used that combo in 4th edition too, and back then I ran them in a Rhino. It does work provided you get at least 1 movement phase with the Rhino, as after disembark, movement and assault combined with the previous turns movement that is 26" across the table! A list around Calgar, I would say you should concentrate on having 2 additional mechanised units to back them up. Choosing between multiple Rhinos isn't always easy, as if the opponent starts on the Rhino with Honour Guard your game winning Tacticals in Rhinos are untouched, let alone your Dreads. Remember most people have close ranged anti-tank nowadays, so you can all but guarantee at least a single turns movement with your uber unit. Anything high danger to the opponent like Landspeeders and Dreadnoughts can be included in your list and will sucker in fire at weakly armoured Rhinos, and if they don't you can blitz them with your Dreads and Landspeeders and Tacticals and win the game! Hell, even consider Sternguard in a Rhino if you consider Honour Guard plus Calgar in a Rhino! People really won't know what to fire at and you have 2 units that hurt opponents. 5 Honor Guard (Champion w/ Relic Blade and Banner as the only upgrades) I enjoy this very combo, and can testify to its effectiveness. I'm even taking it to this years GT. Don't worry you can bet I will let everyone know how I get on (man I hope I don't get ruined!). Now, a Landraider is another thing altogether! Honour Guard + Calgar + Landraider = evil combo3. You can guarantee your opponent will be focussing on the Landraider, so use this to your advantage. Place it somewhere you want your opponents counter units to end up, including those Melta units. Put pressure on opponents by being bold, and remember a single move is all you need to get across the table. Now the points value you have mentioned nets you plenty of stuff, so just make sure you get around 25 Troops infantry minimum, more if not mechanised. Then get plenty of high danger units. It's up to you whether you want a counter attack army or assault force, or both. I favour mechanised so have counter attack plus the Honour Guard supported by Tacticals fulfil an assault element (i.e. both). If you go Landraider plus Assault Marines plus a couple Dreads in drop pods etc you have a credible assault force. You don't need a support character as back up but it does help. For points saving I would suggest not attaching one though, unless you dropped the numbers in the unit. You could do better with a Dreadnought for the points. A Chaplain can make Calgar and his mates hideous, so if you do have the points spare stick one in! I will explain in more detail (not so generically) what actually works best for me tomorrow, but for now I would confirm that I think you are going to have a nasty combo there, especially at 1,850pts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 I actually do use Vanguard as my Calgar escort. =) I'm a fan of the power weapon variety and the ability to give them Storm Shields. (The Vanguard alone can take down a Demon Prince, and not much else in my army can do that, esp. in CC.) That said, I'm still very interested in trying an Honor Guard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 I actually do use Vanguard as my Calgar escort. =) I'm a fan of the power weapon variety and the ability to give them Storm Shields. (The Vanguard alone can take down a Demon Prince, and not much else in my army can do that, esp. in CC.) That said, I'm still very interested in trying an Honor Guard. To be honest I use Vanguard with Calgar and Honour Guard with Master of the Marches (Chapter Master entry) Galenus. But differently just because it's my style and I'm using 1,500pts, I use Calgar with 6 Vanguard and no upgrades. But I have extensive experience using Honour Guard so can easily enough provide advice :devil: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 I actually do use Vanguard as my Calgar escort. =) I'm a fan of the power weapon variety and the ability to give them Storm Shields. (The Vanguard alone can take down a Demon Prince, and not much else in my army can do that, esp. in CC.) That said, I'm still very interested in trying an Honor Guard. To be honest I use Vanguard with Calgar and Honour Guard with Master of the Marches (Chapter Master entry) Galenus. But differently just because it's my style and I'm using 1,500pts, I use Calgar with 6 Vanguard and no upgrades. But I have extensive experience using Honour Guard so can easily enough provide advice :( I'm not familiar with Master of the Marches...by Chapter Master entry I presume you mean he's a vanilla CM...do you give him any upgrades? The Vanguard I run is...pretty big, but they're sort of the focal point of my Chapter's story right now. No upgrades is okay (they count as hit points, more or less) but I would encourage you to throw a Storm Shield or two in there to soak some Invuln-only hits for Calgar. They're likely going to anyway, but at 3++ they could soak quite a few more than one. In your opinion then what's the best application for Honor Guard? =) How do they fair against various ICs/HQs, e.g. a Demon Prince. I usually throw down with a Demon Prince once a week, and my opponent has learned to keep him away from my Vanguard unless he's got a lot of support. Meanwhile, the DP will eat ANY other unit I have on the table for a light snack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Stompalot Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 When I do take them, I like to attach a epistolary with force dome and might of the ancients i think its called. Lots of choppy death with slightly better survivability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 I would use them against the following, taken from a previous post of mine about Honour Guard and their effectiveness: And kill Black Templars, Space Wolves Grey Hunters and Blood Claws, Khorne Berzekers, Necrons (all of them), Chosen with guns, Obliterators, Assault Marines, Tactical Marines, Orks, Ork Nobz, Chaos Marines, Loyalist Terminators, TH/SS Terminators, Carnifex, Imperial Guard by the dozen (everything in the list aside from Ogryns), Tau (ok, overkill!), all Eldar except Howling Banshees, Wraith Lords and Harelquins, Termagaunts, Hormagaunts, Dark Eldar Warriors (only though), Grey Knights (in Power armour), Sisters of Battle (even when using that invulnerable save prayer), all Tzeentch daemons (even Greater Daemons only have 3 attacks), Plague Bearers (slowly)... That's off the top of my head, without thinking too hard, every unit I would be happy to send Honour Guard against. Even Khorne Bezerkers don't have enough power weapons to worry the unit, especially if lead by a Master who engages the hidden weapon. Of course, you can't always prevent a counter charge but that's 40K! If I lose the unit but win the game I deem the unit was a success! P.S. Oh yeah My Chapter Master represents Galenus because otherwise I have to take Calgar and don't always fit him into the unit! Relic Blade and Storm Shield is standard for him and it makes the unit much more survivable and offensive in equal measure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mal Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 I had a play around with making an army list using calgar, but I didn't go with the honour guard, tbh I dont feel he needs it.... Anyway heres the cheese I came up with... Calgar 5 Assualt Termies Kantor 10 Sternguard (2 combi-meltas, 2 heavy flamers, power fist) Drop pod 10 Sternguard (2 combi-meltas, 2 heavy flamers, power fist) Drop pod 9 Scouts (8 sniper rifles, missile launcher, camo cloaks) Telion 10 scouts (9 sniper rifles, missile launcher, camo cloaks) Thunderfire cannon Drop pod Comes to 1847 Obviously send down both SG units in pods using DPA and send the TF one down empty from reserve. Anyway, thats about as nasty as I could make it on short notice :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 I had a play around with making an army list using calgar, but I didn't go with the honour guard, tbh I dont feel he needs it.... Keep in mind that an Honour Guard doesn't only soak hits...it puts out more WS5 power weapon attacks than Calgar can himself. And you can make them all S6 with relic blades. @_@ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 I noticed people are often getting confused with the Honour Guard WS, only the Champion is WS5 (sadly). Still, the Champion alone makes the Honour Guard formidable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 I noticed people are often getting confused with the Honour Guard WS, only the Champion is WS5 (sadly). Still, the Champion alone makes the Honour Guard formidable. Ah, so it is. Still, it is a lot of power weapons on vets. A shame only the one model is WS5. The 2+ saves all around are so godly versus standard troop choices (without a buried PF) that I feel they're best employed against such units. I haven't tried it yet (they need several more coats of paint and detail work) but I'm getting there. =) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougemeister Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 The way i feel is that unless you're charging a full Ork mob with PK nob there is a very good chance to gib any Power Fists in a squad with the sheer number of strikes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mal Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Well the termies on the charge get 15 attacks for the 5 of them.... thats more then enough to chew through most units to the point of a serious break test (virtually all will wound and all ignore armour so out of 15 hits i'd expect 7 to get through). Then add in Calgar... If is MEQ, they are all dead... if its horde they are broken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 i wouldnt risk I1 attacks on an ork mob though, chnces are youll lose most of them before you get to attack.. twin claws hoever is a great way to thin the hordes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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