Marshal Wilhelm Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 I have not yet read any HH books, but have just learnt my local library has some - yippee! :) I know from IA that zealous IF become BT, young IF become CF (who were Crusading for 8K years, as BT or UM~esque, I wonder which one?) and the others remain IF. I guess SD get retro squeezed in there somehow.... Is there much about the BT and SD elements entwined in the IF during pre-heresy? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185193-the-sons-of-dorn/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Subtle Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 I have not yet read any HH books, but have just learnt my local library has some - yippee! :) I know from IA that zealous IF become BT, young IF become CF (who were Crusading for 8K years, as BT or UM~esque, I wonder which one?) and the others remain IF. I guess SD get retro squeezed in there somehow.... Is there much about the BT and SD elements entwined in the IF during pre-heresy? probably not man, until the fall of the big E fists were just... fists. the notion of ever splitting up into smaller chapters was not even concieved. it wasnt until PappaSmurf wrote the IA and TOLD them all to split up that certain 'differences' between fists would have been picked up... ie. zealous etc. you are right but, i wonder how SD came to be? i know they were more 'boarding/assault' orientated than regular fists? maybe thats how they were picked? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185193-the-sons-of-dorn/#findComment-2189552 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taerij Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 The Codex Astartes was written after the Horus Heresy, so unless they take the novels that far, it won't happen. I got the impression the Siege of Terra would be the finale of the series from the interveiws with Dan and Graham. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185193-the-sons-of-dorn/#findComment-2189637 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inkman Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 There's something on the Soul Drinkers novels that they were founded from the fleet elements of the Imperial Fists, hence the fact the SD are a fleet based chapter that specializes in boarding actions... I think that's probably mentioned in the first book. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185193-the-sons-of-dorn/#findComment-2189710 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Wilhelm Posted November 19, 2009 Author Share Posted November 19, 2009 I think I'll include this; 40K: IF = Codexed IF from the IW confrontation. BT = Sigismund's vision and perpetuation of the Great Crusade. CF = were crusaders (though I don't know if they were BT or UM~esque) but grabbed a homeworld and we know what happens from there. SD = as per the novels. 30K: IF were not Codex, and did not fight as per Roboute's vision. So if you analysed them at that time, what elements would you see from 40K Chapters in the 30K Legion? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185193-the-sons-of-dorn/#findComment-2190201 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Caverstein Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 I think I'll include this; 40K: IF = Codexed IF from the IW confrontation. BT = Sigismund's vision and perpetuation of the Great Crusade. CF = were crusaders (though I don't know if they were BT or UM~esque) but grabbed a homeworld and we know what happens from there. SD = as per the novels. 30K: IF were not Codex, and did not fight as per Roboute's vision. So if you analysed them at that time, what elements would you see from 40K Chapters in the 30K Legion? I shall say they´ll have a lot of the templars iconography and crimsom gloves and updated wargear(for that era) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185193-the-sons-of-dorn/#findComment-2190335 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 I should note (because no one else has) that the Soul Drinker's are a load of crap. There were only 2 Second Founding Imperial Fist Chapters. The Black Templar - zealous veterans lead by Sigmund, and the Crimson Fists - made up of the younger not fully indoctrinated into stubborn fanaticism Marines. This left the Imperial Fists with the level headed veterans that allowed them to become the second most Codex adherent of the 1st Founding Chapters (after the Ultramarines, obviously). The Soul Drinkers came *poof* out of thin air with their novels and claim to be Second Founding but are very clearly not. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185193-the-sons-of-dorn/#findComment-2191030 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Caverstein Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 I should note (because no one else has) that the Soul Drinker's are a load of crap. There were only 2 Second Founding Imperial Fist Chapters. The Black Templar - zealous veterans lead by Sigmund, and the Crimson Fists - made up of the younger not fully indoctrinated into stubborn fanaticism Marines. This left the Imperial Fists with the level headed veterans that allowed them to become the second most Codex adherent of the 1st Founding Chapters (after the Ultramarines, obviously). The Soul Drinkers came *poof* out of thin air with their novels and claim to be Second Founding but are very clearly not. NEIN There were 4 chapters But the SD got erased from the record because of their heresies but if you check lexicanun or 40k wikia they are listed as a second founding chapter. I got wrong it wasn´t crimson gloves but crimson helmets Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185193-the-sons-of-dorn/#findComment-2194717 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 The Soul Drinkers came *poof* out of thin air with their novels and claim to be Second Founding but are very clearly not. NEIN There were 4 chapters But the SD got erased from the record because of their heresies but if you check lexicanun or 40k wikia they are listed as a second founding chapter. Actually, TEC is correct. The Soul Drinkers came about because a bunch of authors got together and harnessed the arcane and barely-understood power of Retcon. Using their new-found power, they decreed that "The Soul Drinkers are Second Founding" and (unfortunately IMO) it was so. Soul Drinkers have not existed before their novels appeared. For starters, every SM Codex before 5th ed. (and possibly including 5th ed.) has only listed the Black Templars, Imperial Fists and Crimson Fists Chapters as successors to the Imperial Fists Legion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185193-the-sons-of-dorn/#findComment-2194810 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galadren Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 Soul Drinkers have not existed before their novels appeared. Actually, they did, just they were another DIY chapter and the author went "Hey, here's a chapter with nothing but a color scheme! I'll make some stuff up!" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185193-the-sons-of-dorn/#findComment-2195244 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mal Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 The Imperial Fists were actually one of the last chapters to adhere to Guilliman's C:A, initially Dorn went on a personal crusade to destroy the traitor primarchs after finding Sanguinus, Horus and the Emperor after their epic duel. It wasn't until the Iron Cage affair where the IF went in unprepared and undermanned against a world set for seige by their arch nemesis the Iron Warriors. Whilst the Iron Warriors were unable to finish off the Imperial Fists, Guilliman intervened to protect the remains of the Imperial Fists (well at least the smurfs were good for something :tu:). After this event the Fists spilt, originally only 2 sucessors formed, BT and CF, both went on their respective crusades while the IF went out of commission whilst Dorn trained his remaining veterans (all that was left of the chapter after the Iron Cage) in all apsects of the C:A. Once they returned to the fray, the IF were second only to UM in their adheriance of the C:A. SD was not a second founding, they came about much later. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185193-the-sons-of-dorn/#findComment-2195254 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serial Bob Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 You could argue that they were never mentioned before the novels in relation to the Imperial Fists because they have been purged from official records, and the standard information (fluff) we receive is censored by the Imperium. The Soul Drinkers novels could be conceived as being the personal recounting of events by Sarpedon/ the Soul Drinkers as a whole, and therefore unofficial, which lets you take from it what ever you want. I've read the first three books and found them okay, not the greatest but okay. I'm a Crimson Fist fan myself and the two things it has done for me is given me some extra fluff about my favourite chapter (from Crimson Tears) which you don't get that often, and provided me with a possible enemy for the Crimson Fists to fight against if i decide to do a pet project. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185193-the-sons-of-dorn/#findComment-2195271 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 and the standard information (fluff) we receive is censored by the Imperium. If the Imperium is capable of breaking the fourth wall, then that censorship would apply to just about every bit of fluff we have access to. You think the Dark Angels want us knowing about the Fallen? Or the Inquisition wanting us knowing about the origins/very existence of the Grey Knights? We'd wind up with the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer and not much else. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185193-the-sons-of-dorn/#findComment-2195283 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mal Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 To be fair, I don't take the Soul Drinkers very seriously.... its a bad idea taken too far. Considering the lengths that the other chapters and the =][= goto to wipe out the traitor legions, they let the SD off quite lightly and this just doesn't sit right, yes im aware the lengths that the SD went to to escape, but the onlyescape from the imperium is either far beyond its borders (in which case any small unsupported force would quickly be wiped out by xenos, marines or not) or the eye of terror... And then linking the SD to IF was just insulting to all fist fans. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185193-the-sons-of-dorn/#findComment-2195298 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serial Bob Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 If the Imperium is capable of breaking the fourth wall, then that censorship would apply to just about every bit of fluff we have access to. You think the Dark Angels want us knowing about the Fallen? Or the Inquisition wanting us knowing about the origins/very existence of the Grey Knights? That's a very good point. Having said that, doesn't the specific secret information relating to these chapters only appear in books, or parts of books specifically dealing with the chapter (or in the case of the Grey Knights, the Inquisition/ Daemonhunters)? You can learn from several sources that the Blood Angels and the Dark Angels have a hidden secret, but what the secret actually is only really appears in books actually dealing with them directly. I could well be wrong about this but this is the impression i have got. An example would be the Angels Sanguine. It is mentioned in various sources that they have a secret reason why they do not remove their helmets in public, but unless a story is written with the Angels Sanguine as its focus, i doubt we will ever find out the actual reason for it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185193-the-sons-of-dorn/#findComment-2195583 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mal Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 perhaps they have crooked teeth ^_^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185193-the-sons-of-dorn/#findComment-2195611 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 That's a very good point. Having said that, doesn't the specific secret information relating to these chapters only appear in books, or parts of books specifically dealing with the chapter (or in the case of the Grey Knights, the Inquisition/ Daemonhunters)? Good point. The question really seems to be how authoritative Codicies are compared to BL. Both my examples are from the respective Codicies, whereas the Soul Drinkers do not have a Codex of their own to concentrate on them. Certainly in the case of the Grey Knights, their origins/other secrets are not discussed in their novels - the fact that they are there at all has given away their biggest secret. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185193-the-sons-of-dorn/#findComment-2195689 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mal Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 From a GW statement, the only true cannon is the most upto date codex and rule books, anything else such as WD, old Dex's/rule books, BL etc are not true cannon... but with how little fluff there is for the vast majority of forces in the most recent codex/rule books we have little choice but to turn to BL publications for more information. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185193-the-sons-of-dorn/#findComment-2195994 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 ^That's not true at all. According to GW, the Black Library IS canon except where contradicted by studio material (which, BTW, makes the Soul Drinkers NOT Second Founding), and the most up to date Codex does not replace the canon of older Codices, it only adds to the pile of info available to sort through(an odd and sort of lazy policy). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185193-the-sons-of-dorn/#findComment-2196168 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 The Imperial Fists were actually one of the last chapters to adhere to Guilliman's C:A, initially Dorn went on a personal crusade to destroy the traitor primarchs after finding Sanguinus, Horus and the Emperor after their epic duel. Dorn AND Guilliman went on this Crusade TOGETHER. It wasn't just Dorn. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185193-the-sons-of-dorn/#findComment-2196188 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 According to GW, the Black Library IS canon except where contradicted by studio material Could you provide a reference (since that would conclusively solve the BL Canonicity Debate)? I've only seen the BL website's claim to canonicity based on the dubious premise of there only being "the odd contradiction here and there". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185193-the-sons-of-dorn/#findComment-2196215 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mal Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 The Imperial Fists were actually one of the last chapters to adhere to Guilliman's C:A, initially Dorn went on a personal crusade to destroy the traitor primarchs after finding Sanguinus, Horus and the Emperor after their epic duel. Dorn AND Guilliman went on this Crusade TOGETHER. It wasn't just Dorn. Actually your wrong here... Dorn was on the crusade while Guilliman was writing C:A, the timeline doesn't allow Guilliman to be in 2 places at once. Guilliman steped in when it looked like Dorn's crusade was going to be the end of the IF, it was this realisation and the irregular approach Dorn took to the Iron Cage affair (complete lack of planning, very un-IF) which convinced him to reform his chapter according to C:A. Basically Guilliman saved Dorn from himself, he didn't join the Crusade at any point. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185193-the-sons-of-dorn/#findComment-2196227 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 Its in one of the IA's. The IF and UM were together on Crusade. You will have to take my word for it or look it up yourself, but I am right. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185193-the-sons-of-dorn/#findComment-2196264 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 According to GW, the Black Library IS canon except where contradicted by studio material Could you provide a reference (since that would conclusively solve the BL Canonicity Debate)? I've only seen the BL website's claim to canonicity based on the dubious premise of there only being "the odd contradiction here and there". The issue was raised during a meeting of some sort with the lead people of GW earlier this year or last year, that was their response. You'll have to use your search-fu or ask someone with a knack for keeping track of this type of info. I myself lost track of that particular thread. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185193-the-sons-of-dorn/#findComment-2196268 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 The issue was raised during a meeting of some sort with the lead people of GW earlier this year or last year, that was their response. You'll have to use your search-fu or ask someone with a knack for keeping track of this type of info. I myself lost track of that particular thread. Oh, I know what you mean now - I ended up copying your quote at one point. According to Kurgan, it was from Jack Kirby, former CEO of GW, but unfortunately the statement only said the BL's purpose was first, to write good stories, and second, to follow the fluff. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185193-the-sons-of-dorn/#findComment-2196279 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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