Vulkan Hestan

[Jarl Bloodwolf]

ive got my own chapter and as their samoan/maori based i thought of the whole fire dancing thing and so i have alot of flamers in my army. also with my description of my chapter master he matches pretty close to Vulkan Hestan so iv'e got him in my army list as a counts as character but im wondering how effective is he in combat and is his chapter tactics worth it? so can any salamander players or anyone else who uses him give me some feedback on him?

 

and im not sure i posted this in the right place but i dont know where else i would have posted it so.....yeah

[thade]

ive got my own chapter and as their samoan/maori based i thought of the whole fire dancing thing and so i have alot of flamers in my army. also with my description of my chapter master he matches pretty close to Vulkan Hestan so iv'e got him in my army list as a counts as character but im wondering how effective is he in combat and is his chapter tactics worth it? so can any salamander players or anyone else who uses him give me some feedback on him?

 

I must apologize in advance, as my answer will clearly be biased.

 

This model routinely wins tournaments around where I am. His list is always the same deal:

- As many multimeltas and meltaguns as possible. This includes Tac Squads, Command Squads, Sternguard, and Dreadnoughts (the latter usually with Drop Pods). Landspeeders, and of course, a Land Raider. They are all twin-linked, meaning reroll 3+ to hit, 2+ to wound/instant death on most models, and 2d6 armor pen, +1 on the table.

- Inside the Land Raider goes He'stan and 5+ TH/SS terminators. Each of their hammers count as Mastercrafted, so they reroll one miss, and they are all Str 8 with 3++ invuln saves.

- He'stan himself has a master-crafted Relic Blade (reroll one missed to-hit, Str 6 power weapon), a 2+ armor save, a 3++ invuln save. When you consider how powerful he makes your army anyway, you'd think he'd be a wimp. In reality, he's almost a match for freakin Calgar in a fight. Oh, and he has a Heavy Flamer too.

- There are flamers here and there, which are also twin-linked (reroll to wound), but they are far outmatched by MMs.

 

In my opinion (just my opinion) this is the biggest cheeselist that Marines can make. It is not for Friendly games. It is for "I really want to win the prize in this tournament" games. There is remarkably little that can stand up to it (barring a list that identically matches it). I hate playing against it. In fact, if I have the choice, I won't. It is one of the two armies I have faced more than once that has effortlessly wiped me from the table with very few losses of its own, and I didn't have fun playing at all. (Probably didn't help that my opponents seemed to know they were invincible with said list and enjoyed rubbing it in my face.)

 

Is he effective? At winning, yes. At having an enjoyable game, no.

 

Funniest part is, I have a fully painted Counts-As He'Stan in my pack. My initial plan was to run such a list, but after I experienced the receiving end of it, it was a very quick decision to NEVER run such a list of my own accord.

[Jarl Bloodwolf]

In my opinion (just my opinion) this is the biggest cheeselist that Marines can make. It is not for Friendly games. It is for "I really want to win the prize in this tournament" games. There is remarkably little that can stand up to it (barring a list that identically matches it). I hate playing against it. In fact, if I have the choice, I won't. It is one of the two armies I have faced more than once that has effortlessly wiped me from the table with very few losses of its own, and I didn't have fun playing at all. (Probably didn't help that my opponents seemed to know they were invincible with said list and enjoyed rubbing it in my face.)

 

Is he effective? At winning, yes. At having an enjoyable game, no.

 

 

 

thank you for your input but i assure you my list isnt anything like that. my army dosent have a single melta weapon within its ranks....i dont think. just about every unit that can take a flamer has one and pretty much my army is compromised of Vulkan, a captain in TDA, a term squad and a Drednought and scout squad. my tactical squads are drop pod bound and i have 9 land speeders.

 

that list you described just sounds completly unsporting

[thade]

thank you for your input but i assure you my list isnt anything like that. my army dosent have a single melta weapon within its ranks....i dont think. just about every unit that can take a flamer has one and pretty much my army is compromised of Vulkan, a captain in TDA, a term squad and a Drednought and scout squad. my tactical squads are drop pod bound and i have 9 land speeders.

 

that list you described just sounds completly unsporting

 

That's a horse of a different color, as they say. =)

 

All twin-linked flamers would be reasonably effective against bodies. You'll still need anti-vehicle to pop open transports and take down tanks. If your solution to that is to fit your Vulkan-ized list here, it may as well be Melta tech (then you're running the list I spoke of after all). If you don't, you'll at least need Missile Launchers and Lascannons to punch through armor/pop transports.

[Iron_Chaos_Brute]

And now for the tourney player's point of view.

Vulkan is good, yes. But is he game-breaking? Nowhere near. Like everything else in the game, he can be handled if you play smart.

I personally groan when I see Vulkan across the table because I have bad matchups with Vulkan armies, but that's not really relevant.

Vulkan is part of the game, adapt or die.

[thade]

And now for the tourney player's point of view.

Vulkan is good, yes. But is he game-breaking? Nowhere near. Like everything else in the game, he can be handled if you play smart.

I personally groan when I see Vulkan across the table because I have bad matchups with Vulkan armies, but that's not really relevant.

Vulkan is part of the game, adapt or die.

 

Forgive me for saying so, but I hardly think the options include death. =P This is a game we're talking about, yes?

 

I'd be curious to hear how people have beaten soundly the list I described, because the times I've seen it in action it has without any real opposition steamrolled it's way to victory.

[templargdt]

I built a Vulkan model for 'Ard Boyz and he took me to the finals. The Vulkan list (especially at high point values) is the most competitive build in the SM book IMHO.

 

Like Thade, I decided to put him in my figure case and leave him at home except for really serious tournament play. Winning is nice and all, but if you want to continue to play people they don't like getting their head handed to them in a friendly game. It's just the same if I had a guy at my FLGS show up every time with a Nob Biker list I either wouldn't play him OR I'd have my Vulkan list handy just for him but no one else in the store.

 

As to how you build the list you play to Vulkan's benefits, so you use a lot of meltas, flamers and thunderhammers, which are all excellent weapons to start with. Then look at other lists you can expect to see (Lash/Oblits, IG, other Vulkan lists) and you try and figure ways to improve your percentage agains them by tweaking what you are brining.

[glayvin34]

Vulkan is the MAN. None of the other SM special characters give you such a far-reaching, permanent and practical benefit, and he's pretty badass in CC. However, I don't always field a Termie assault squad, which is really the best retinue for him. The few times I've left him at the firebase or tried to have him run next to a standard assault squad the enemy kept away and he took lascannon and missile shots until he died. But he left his master-crafted weapons behind, and that carried the game forward for me.

 

In a nutshell, his Chapter Tactics and his Combat abilities are both worth the point cost alone, but you get both.

[Gornall]

He's definately a very solid character. However, don't just load up on Meltas/Flamers because you think you need to. Make sure to mix in some long-range threats or your enemy will just lead you around by the nose.

[Iron_Chaos_Brute]

Forgive me for saying so, but I hardly think the options include death. =P This is a game we're talking about, yes?

Refering to the little plastic army men :D

 

I'd be curious to hear how people have beaten soundly the list I described, because the times I've seen it in action it has without any real opposition steamrolled it's way to victory.

Guard'll give it trouble (T1, Manticores take out Raider, Chims+Hydras take out most Rhinos/Speeders, Banewolves'll kill whole squads, and Mechvets don't really care when you pop their transports as long as you're within 18 when you do so) as will BW Orks (They get too close too fast, KFF counters Vulkan's TL, and once they're there, they don't care about losing transports) or lootas/Shootas (Kan screen + KFF counters the Raider, Lootas take care of Rhinos/Speeders). Lash/Obits/PMs has termicide to deal with the raider and plenty of lascannons to deal w/ speeders/Rhino bunkers, and Lash controls the TH/SS squad once it's out of the Raider. Tau have Suiticide/Railguns to kill the Raider, and Deathrain/Railguns to deal with Rhinos/Speeders (sound familiar? :lol: ). For a suboptimal build, though, tooled Vulkan's a bear to deal with. He's just one more reason that every army should have at least 2 things to counter AV 14 (reliably, not just Meltas in Tac squads or somesuch) and 3 things to counter light Mech (Rhinos, Speeders, Dreads, etc.)

 

EDIT- and Gornall has it.

[Vaktathi]

ive got my own chapter and as their samoan/maori based i thought of the whole fire dancing thing and so i have alot of flamers in my army. also with my description of my chapter master he matches pretty close to Vulkan Hestan so iv'e got him in my army list as a counts as character but im wondering how effective is he in combat and is his chapter tactics worth it? so can any salamander players or anyone else who uses him give me some feedback on him?

 

and im not sure i posted this in the right place but i dont know where else i would have posted it so.....yeah

He's effective enough that the overwhelming majority of SM armies I've faced field him. I've seen him in Ultramarines blue as often as Sallies green and every color in between. It's gotten to the point where when I come across a new SM army, I basically expect it to include him, and I've been wrong so far...once.

 

 

Seriously, for his cost, he's a boatload of dumb. You can take an normal captain, give him artificer armor, stormshield, digital weapons, and a relic blade, then then illegally give him a combi-flamer, and he'd be a grand total of *10pts* less than Vulkan with an illegal weapons loadout, a *far* weaker and only one-shot flamer that doesn't get to reroll to wound, no reroll to hit in CC, and no farking ridiculous army wide ability to reroll wounds with flamers, reroll misses with melta weapons, and reroll a miss with Thunder Hammers on 2+/3++ Terminators. Mind you flamers and meltas are some of the most important and powerful weapons in 5E 40k.

 

Yeah, for 190pts, you get a stupid amount of value from Vulkan. He'd be worth his cost even *without* his completely ridiculous Chapter Tactics ability.

 

I'd be curious to hear how people have beaten soundly the list I described, because the times I've seen it in action it has without any real opposition steamrolled it's way to victory.

I've done it with both CSM's and Guard. With CSM's it was pretty much all about using the Icons to accurately deep strike Oblits and combi-melta termi's to take out the SM vehicles, let Vulkan eat something before shooting his unit to death with half my army, and engaging everything else in CC with CSM's and using their greater CC attacks advantage. Usually it's very close however. IG generally just outshoot it, and fight it melta for melta and field more tanks than the Vulkan list can kill even with a bajillion meltas. Vendetta's help a lot and Vulkans CC terminator deathstar tends to be grossly overkill. That said, I don't think my IG list is any less hideous than that Vulkan list so I have to cut it down too in order to play friendly games mostly.

 

I wouldn't bother trying to play that list though with my Tau or Eldar.

[Brother Xeones]

He's definately a very solid character. However, don't just load up on Meltas/Flamers because you think you need to. Make sure to mix in some long-range threats or your enemy will just lead you around by the nose.

 

Not necessarily. To make up for the short range of the weapons that Vulcan enhances, you either need to mix in longer range weapons, or you need to invest in mobility. Gating Librarians, Bikes, Landspeeders, Drop Pods, etc --all work to get your short-range guns where they need to go.

[Mycroft Holmes]

In a nutshell, his Chapter Tactics and his Combat abilities are both worth the point cost alone, but you get both.

 

 

This is exactly true.

[thade]

So far, all of the suggestions as to how to take down Vulkan and his Cheese-ified Crew involve armies that are not Space Marines (the only army I play). =) How does a Space Marine player take down He'stan?

[Hfran Morkai]

So far, all of the suggestions as to how to take down Vulkan and his Cheese-ified Crew involve armies that are not Space Marines (the only army I play). =) How does a Space Marine player take down He'stan?

 

Shooting him and his squad repeatedly?

[Deus de Mortalis]

Oodles of plasma cannons plasma guns, nothing with an armor value, no scouts, tons of ablative wounds, a couple squads of suicidal multi-melta attack bikes to take down a land raider, maybe two. I don't really know, just my guess.

 

Vulkan makes each melta count as 1.33 meltas, and depending on toughness and WS, each flamer or thunder hammer wounding or hitting on a 4+ count as 1.5 flamers or melta guns. A squad of 3 MM attack bikes suddenly has the equivalent of 4 multimeltas. All of this benefit is pretty much completely for free since vulkan is priced accurately even if it was just him and not the special rules.

[Gornall]

Cure for Vulkan armies... keep them outside of 24".

[Brother_Kluft]

Vulkan is good, really good.

But I don't think he is as game breaking as it seems. As the game gets into higher points he becomes progressively better as he can effect more units. At lower points he is really good, but not rediculous. Lets take my 1500 vulkan list

 

Weapon-------> Effective Number of Weapons

2 HFlamer (incl Vulkan) ----> 3 HFlamers

3 Flamer -----> 4.5 flamers

1 Melta ----- >1.33 Meltas

3 MMelta -----> 4 MMelta

6 Hammers ----->7.5 hammers (vs WS4)

 

So in exchange for combat tactics/fleet/stubborn/outflank I get

1 more heavy flamer

1.5 more flamers

1/3 meltagun

1 MMelta

1.5 Hammers

 

[and take into account that these are not actuall weapons, thus there are still fewer targets to shoot at, etc...]

And my army has NO other heavy or special weapons.

 

I think that at least at 1500, those extra weapon effects are nicely balanced by the other tactics

 

Combat tactics vs Vulkan = Equal

Fleet vs Vulkan = Tough one, but fleet is marginally better I think

Stubborn vs Vulkan = Vulkan is better

Outflank vs vulkan = Vulkan by a slight margin.

 

 

So good, yes. Broken? Maybe at 2000/2500 but at 1500 I don't think so.

[silversmith82]

Unconventional SM army can get him. Little or nothing with armor, a crapton of plasma cannons, something to get the raider and a badder ass in CC than Vulkan (Calgar or Lysander). Hey, something like I'm basically building lol. I hate cheese lists so I like to make lists to take them down. Podding dreads and suicide Sternguard will get lit up by a Vulcan army. Range and plasma pieplates are the order of the day here. An anti-deepstriking inquisitor will absolutely RUIN the podding melta dreads/Ironclads that come standard in a Vulkan army. 3 Tac squads combat squadded down with plasma cannons hanging back and a 4 plasma cannon devastator squad combat squadded down and placed in separate locations. Thats 7 pie plates a turn not to mention you can give the other half of the combat squad meltas and drop pods to go after his LR.

[Hfran Morkai]

Sicarius or Khan might be an idea, instakill blades would be nice, if only he failed the save.

 

Alternately a libby with force weapon.

[Vaktathi]

Cure for Vulkan armies... keep them outside of 24".

Easier said than done, especially considring all the deployment options available to marines and the fact that the sweet spot for all SM armies is 12-18" to be at their peak efficiency.

[thade]

Cure for Vulkan armies... keep them outside of 24".

Easier said than done, especially considring all the deployment options available to marines and the fact that the sweet spot for all SM armies is 12-18" to be at their peak efficiency.

 

That has been my experience vs. Mr. Vulkan. Killing Vulkan himself is not so much the issue. It's killing the rest of his nightmare of a list whether he's up or down. All that twin-linked melta fire is very despoiling.

[silversmith82]

Well what are the problem units and how do you deal with them?

 

-Terminators/PA Marines - Plasma Cannons

-Drop Podding Dread - A few LSSs with jammers and meltas in your deployment zone. Or an allied Inquisitor.

-Land Raider - Your own drop podding melta dreads or better still (imo) a 5 man combat squad in a pod with a meltagun and combi melta. Or Speeders/Bikes.

 

These things are often included in SM armies anyways.

[Giga]

And now for the tourney player's point of view.

Vulkan is good, yes. But is he game-breaking? Nowhere near. Like everything else in the game, he can be handled if you play smart.

I personally groan when I see Vulkan across the table because I have bad matchups with Vulkan armies, but that's not really relevant.

Vulkan is part of the game, adapt or die.

I couldn't have said it better myself. ;)

 

The only thing I disagree with is that I actually love playing against Vulkan armies. Vulkan vs Vulkan battles are always fun fun fun!

 

People whining about Vulkan being "cheesy" and "overpowered" is just people who need a reason to complain. Vulkan only makes some of the weapons a vanilla army would take anyway more reliable. People already did math on him, and he's nowhere near as massive an improvement as people seem to believe, and nowhere near as "winbutton" as people WANT to think.

[Deus de Mortalis]

I couldn't have said it better myself. :lol:

 

The only thing I disagree with is that I actually love playing against Vulkan armies. Vulkan vs Vulkan battles are always fun fun fun!

 

People whining about Vulkan being "cheesy" and "overpowered" is just people who need a reason to complain. Vulkan only makes some of the weapons a vanilla army would take anyway more reliable. People already did math on him, and he's nowhere near as massive an improvement as people seem to believe, and nowhere near as "winbutton" as people WANT to think.

 

Said like only a true Vulkan Cheese player could.

 

The math shows that Vulkan DOES confer a massive improvement, Vulkan makes all of your meltas fire as if they are BS6, your flamers hit as if they are strength 5.5, your heavy flamers as if they are stength 6.5, and lets you land a few more hits each round of combat with the most devastating close combat weapon your troops can carry. All this benefit is at no cost because the independent character himself is worth all of his points to begin with! If you see no problem with this regarding the game, you are truly blind. Vulkan can confer a huge advantage to a list built around him. If Vulkan wasn't so powerful or gave that much of a benefit, why would you and a preponderance of marine players take him? I doubt it is because you and they are in love with Salamanders fluff.