Vulkan Hestan

[Brother Xeones]

Said like only a true Vulkan Cheese player could.

 

Look people: Some folks like to make strong lists to play with. That is how they enjoy the game --by making the strongest choices they can, both when playing the game and when making lists. Some folks feel that (for a variety of reasons) playing with sub-optimal choices is far more fun. The game is about having fun. I say the people who can enjoy and understand both types of play are the players who will enjoy themselves the most because they are not busy throwing stones at "the other side".

 

This topic is getting waaaaay off of the original intent. ;)

[Mycroft Holmes]

Look people: Some folks like to make strong lists to play with. ... Some folks feel that (for a variety of reasons) playing with sub-optimal choices is far more fun.

 

 

THis is exactly it. Vulkan is the strongest, and most reliable, character available; taking anything else is a active choice to take something less powerful.

 

On Topic: The best way to beat Vulkan is with Vulkan. Your army has to be as reliable as his; and then out play him.

[Vaktathi]

The only thing I disagree with is that I actually love playing against Vulkan armies. Vulkan vs Vulkan battles are always fun fun fun!

If you enjoy that, then by all means, but that doesn't sound appetizing at all.

 

 

People whining about Vulkan being "cheesy" and "overpowered" is just people who need a reason to complain.

Or you know, you could just look at him in comparison to an equivalently equipped captain and realize how ridiculous he is for an extra *10* points :/

 

Vulkan only makes some of the weapons a vanilla army would take anyway more reliable.

Talk about understatement there...he makes generally the most important ones more reliable, and *much* more so.

 

 

He makes melta weapons 22% more reliable in terms of hitting their target, that's pretty intense. That's a better boost than going from BS4 to BS5. Not only that, it's all the 3 weapons and/or units that saw the biggest boost or enhancement of need with 5th ed and the SM codex (flamers get to stack templates and the prevalence of cover, melta weapons gaining increasing prominence and availability, thunder hammers on 3++ save termi's) that Vulkan enhances.

 

People already did math on him, and he's nowhere near as massive an improvement as people seem to believe, and nowhere near as "winbutton" as people WANT to think.

For his cost, for 10pts more than an illegally but as close as identically equipped as possible basic Captain, you get a *better* CC capability, a much better flamer weapon, and the ability to twin link flamers, melta weapons and reroll 1 hit each on every thunder hammer every round of CC, and all you lose is the ability to choose the fail morale tests, which unless you are running bikes, has no comparison to Vulkan's ability. If that's not a no-brainer auto-take option, I don't know what is.

 

Also, seeing him time and time and time again instead of any basic HQ option or almost all of the other SC's, he gets *really* old.

[Giga]

Said like only a true Vulkan Cheese player could.

I love you too, my dear scrub. :D

If you enjoy that, then by all means, but that doesn't sound appetizing at all.

To me, the most appetizing battle is when both me and my opponents have same armies, and we're both playing hard to win. That's when you get those hard fought battles that are so extremely enjoyable whether you win or lose. Vulkan vs Vulkan lists also mean there is going to be a lot less luck and a lot more skill involved.

Or you know, you could just look at him in comparison to an equivalently equipped captain and realize how ridiculous he is for an extra *10* points :/

For his cost, for 10pts more than an illegally but as close as identically equipped as possible basic Captain, you get a *better* CC capability, a much better flamer weapon, and the ability to twin link flamers, melta weapons and reroll 1 hit each on every thunder hammer every round of CC, and all you lose is the ability to choose the fail morale tests, which unless you are running bikes, has no comparison to Vulkan's ability. If that's not a no-brainer auto-take option, I don't know what is.

THis is exactly it. Vulkan is the strongest, and most reliable, character available; taking anything else is a active choice to take something less powerful.

Guys, guys... Vulkan is a very good HQ, and probably the best in 5th ed vanilla dex... But so what?

 

In every dex there are some HQ choices that are just better then other choices. Compare a chaos lord to a daemon prince, or an autarch to a farseer, or tycho to dante, etc. It's called internal imbalance, and it happens in every dex, in every ruleset, in every game.

 

The way you guys say it, it's like Vulkan is head and shoulders above any other HQ choice in C:SM, and that is just not true. I've been playing lists with a standard kitted out captain (relic blade, storm shield, digital weapons, artificer armor) and doing lists with similar composition to those I ran with Vulkan, and while Vulkan lists are better, they still aren't incredibly omgcheesebrokenbawwww better. Same can be said about most other lists I play (such as Pedro phalanx, bike captain lists, etc.). I've played all these lists against Vulkan lists, and I won more often then not.

 

Vulkan confers a great bonus, but he isn't a win button and he isn't gamebreaking. You can't compare him to things like lash princes or psyker choruses, who genuinely screw up the game by making entire lists and even armies unplayable in tournaments.

Also, seeing him time and time and time again instead of any basic HQ option or almost all of the other SC's, he gets *really* old.

Why? What's to get old about him? He's a close combat character that gives a passive bonus to his army.

 

He's not like a lash prince that has a genuine trick up its sleeve that can annoy the hell out of you, or Njal who goes around doing insane storm-thingies that completely screw your crap up, or lysander whom you can't possibly kill until the opposing player fails his saves, etc.

[maturin]

I, for one, am glad to have Vulkan as an option in Marine lists. As people have pointed out, he's probably the most effective character the SM player can field, if you design a list around him. Cheese? Perhaps - depends on the point level, the exact army you field, etc. 2000 points? Vulkan can be nice. 1250 points? He'll get swamped by opponents.

 

But I'd say we needed something to counter every other race's "cheese" list - as mentioned previously, there's Mech IG, Nob Bikers, Chaos twin Lash/Oblits, etc. out there. Did we have anything on that level before? I can't recall anything off the top of my head - so this evens the field for us. Yes, he's cheap for his points cost. So are most of the other characters - many fall within 10 or 20 points of the "equivalent" captain or chapter master, before you consider specials. Just look at Cassius. Why would you ever take a termie chappie when for the same cost you get T6, FNP, and the ability to run people down?

 

Granted, it might not be fun playing a Vulkan "heavy" list against a "fun" list - but that's true of any "heavy vs fun" list matchup. Best solution is to decide which style you're going to play first.

 

Is he really that common? Of the 20 or so players I see on a regular basis in my area, about half can field SM lists, and I'm the only one who fields Vulkan sometimes. That's at pickup games and tourneys both.

 

EDIT - danggit, ninja'd by Giga :D

[tahrikmili]

So far, all of the suggestions as to how to take down Vulkan and his Cheese-ified Crew involve armies that are not Space Marines (the only army I play). =) How does a Space Marine player take down He'stan?

 

Vindicators and Plasma Cannons are your friends. Massed Bolter Fire is also not a bad idea. If all else fails, field a SW army with 4 RPs and keep JotWW'ing him.

[Vaktathi]

To me, the most appetizing battle is when both me and my opponents have same armies, and we're both playing hard to win. That's when you get those hard fought battles that are so extremely enjoyable whether you win or lose. Vulkan vs Vulkan lists also mean there is going to be a lot less luck and a lot more skill involved.

Or it can boil down almost entirely to luck if skill is roughly equal. Either way, playing nearly identical armies just misses out on so much of the game. I always find marine vs marine battles to be amongst the most boring.

 

 

Guys, guys... Vulkan is a very good HQ, and probably the best in 5th ed vanilla dex... But so what?

 

In every dex there are some HQ choices that are just better then other choices. Compare a chaos lord to a daemon prince, or an autarch to a farseer, or tycho to dante, etc. It's called internal imbalance, and it happens in every dex, in every ruleset, in every game.

An autarch at least has a very clear ability that can be big advantage to build an eldar army around as opposed to a farseer (the reserve roll bonus for reserve denial lists), and the farseer doesn't work as well for entirely mech'd armies. Yes all armies have internal balance issues. SM's have one of the absolute worst however with regards to Vulkan.

 

The way you guys say it, it's like Vulkan is head and shoulders above any other HQ choice in C:SM, and that is just not true.

He really is though. In terms of CC capability and overall army improvement, as a total package he is far and away without equal in terms of both cost efficiency and in terms of value brought to the army as a whole.

 

I've been playing lists with a standard kitted out captain (relic blade, storm shield, digital weapons, artificer armor) and doing lists with similar composition to those I ran with Vulkan, and while Vulkan lists are better, they still aren't incredibly omgcheesebrokenbawwww better.

But they are very clearly better, there is a solid, tangible advantage that is far beyond what those extra 10pts are worth. There will be a solid advantage in one players list as compare to the other, and will require much more skill and better rolling on one players part than the others to win for what would otherwise be an identical list for those *10*pts. He's very undercosted for what you get from him, and his abilities are extremely powerful. Going from missing those all important meltagun shots 33% of the time to 11% of the time is a huge change in expected outcomes and means you can typically kill and extra vehicle or two per game, and in the context of 5E, that's worth a lot more than 10pts, especially considering Vulkans heavy flamer and to-hit reroll.

 

I'm not seeing how that is not in any way balanced or clearly and unabashedly superior.

 

 

Vulkan confers a great bonus, but he isn't a win button and he isn't gamebreaking. You can't compare him to things like lash princes or psyker choruses, who genuinely screw up the game by making entire lists and even armies unplayable in tournaments.

Actually, you can. For 190pts he's about as killy as any Daemon prince and about as hard to kill (lower T and 1 less wound, but better saves and rerolls on everything) but grants a *huge* boost to the abilities of the armies most important weapons and units, for no appreciable downside.

 

 

Why? What's to get old about him? He's a close combat character that gives a passive bonus to his army.

A close combat character who's tangibly better than an equivalent basic HQ guy and gives a *HUGE* passive bonus to his army, and is seen multiple times at every event I've been to. Until August, I'd played against exactly *one* non-Vukan army since October 2008 (and this is with playing two days a week, 2-5 games a week in two very different geographical locations), and even since then, most of the lists were Vulkan lists. That's why it gets old. You see the same HQ with the same army builds over and over without regard to fluff (Ultramarines Vulkan, Imperial Fists Vulkan, Homebrew Vulkan #4769, etc...) over and over again and you never see anything else from that army.

 

He's not like a lash prince that has a genuine trick up its sleeve that can annoy the hell out of you, or Njal who goes around doing insane storm-thingies that completely screw your crap up, or lysander whom you can't possibly kill until the opposing player fails his saves, etc.

Lash princes are almost worthless against mechanized armies and are easily shot to pieces from afar and are easier to defeat in CC than Vulkan. Njal is also very dumb but is what, 240pts with 2 wounds? Lysander is nowhere near Vulkan's value for the points. He's hard, but Stubborn does not match twin linking flamers and meltas and MCing thunder hammers, and his Bolter Drill rule is exceedingly awkward on a heavy CC character with no bolter whom is best placed in a heavy CC unit that would likely lack bolters as well, and he's not *that* much worse than Vulkan in CC, especially against anything that isn't also a dead hard heavy CC unit.

[Giga]

Or it can boil down almost entirely to luck if skill is roughly equal. Either way, playing nearly identical armies just misses out on so much of the game. I always find marine vs marine battles to be amongst the most boring.

In a perfect environment, where both players have exactly the same skill, think in exactly the same way, can read each other's mind, and play on symmetrical terrain, with symmetrically placed objectives, I'd say yes, it'd boil down to luck.

 

In reality, this never happens. I've been playing competitive games since I was 7-8 (we played mortal combat#1 and organized mini-tournaments :D), and I'm 24 now, and in all this time I've never once encountered a situation you describe, where both players are so equally matched that the game boils down to luck. Also, if both players having similar armies was all that boring, chess would've died out ages ago.

 

But anyway, since we're talking opinions on what is fun and what isn't here, I say we just agree to disagree.

An autarch at least has a very clear ability that can be big advantage to build an eldar army around as opposed to a farseer (the reserve roll bonus for reserve denial lists), and the farseer doesn't work as well for entirely mech'd armies. Yes all armies have internal balance issues. SM's have one of the absolute worst however with regards to Vulkan.

He really is though. In terms of CC capability and overall army improvement, as a total package he is far and away without equal in terms of both cost efficiency and in terms of value brought to the army as a whole.

But they are very clearly better, there is a solid, tangible advantage that is far beyond what those extra 10pts are worth. There will be a solid advantage in one players list as compare to the other, and will require much more skill and better rolling on one players part than the others to win for what would otherwise be an identical list for those *10*pts. He's very undercosted for what you get from him, and his abilities are extremely powerful. Going from missing those all important meltagun shots 33% of the time to 11% of the time is a huge change in expected outcomes and means you can typically kill and extra vehicle or two per game, and in the context of 5E, that's worth a lot more than 10pts, especially considering Vulkans heavy flamer and to-hit reroll.

As I said, Vulkan is great, and probably better then other HQ choices in C:SM... But what's the big deal? An autarch has a great ability, and so do Pedro, Khan, Lysander etc. and yet Vulkan is still probably better then them. It's internal imbalance, so who cares? We're players. We buy a codex and we make lists, and if the codex happens to have one thing that's better then other things, then there is no reason why we shouldn't use it. It's there to be used, for crying out loud.

 

I would also like to correct you on the "Vulkan requires less skill" thing. It's not true. Vulkan requires just as much skill as most other HQs, because once you deploy him, you play him in exactly the same way as you would a similarly geared captain or master or w/e. Your army just has less reliance on luck and you have a higher statistical chance to have your plans come to fruition. It has nothing to do with player skill. No amount of skill can help you roll bad, but Vulkan is there to nullify the effects of bad rolling, and that is a good thing because the player doesn't waste mental energy on dice and can instead focus on executing his plan.

Actually, you can. For 190pts he's about as killy as any Daemon prince and about as hard to kill (lower T and 1 less wound, but better saves and rerolls on everything) but grants a *huge* boost to the abilities of the armies most important weapons and units, for no appreciable downside.

Yeah, and he dies to a powerfist sergeant. Or to a single shot from a str8 weapon. He is also toughness 4, which means he can be wounded by any weapon in the game.

 

Also, I wasn't comparing vulkan to a lash prince on a one-to-one basis. I'm talking about the bigger picture here. Fighting against vulkan armies only means you need to win through generalship, rather then hoping your opponent rolls bad. I for one fought against vulkan a million times with a variety of lists, and never felt it was overpowered.

A close combat character who's tangibly better than an equivalent basic HQ guy and gives a *HUGE* passive bonus to his army, and is seen multiple times at every event I've been to. Until August, I'd played against exactly *one* non-Vukan army since October 2008, and even since then, most of the lists were Vulkan lists. That's why it gets old. You see the same HQ with the same army builds over and over without regard to fluff (Ultramarines Vulkan, Imperial Fists Vulkan, Homebrew Vulkan #4769, etc...) over and over again and you never see anything else from that army.

Again, so what? Does your fun factor comes from what an opponent has in his army? Sorry, but MY fun comes from a hard fought battle and the general joy of competition. Vulkan is actually very fun to play against because you have to think hard to win, rather then playing on autopilot like you have to do against things like necrons or nidzilla.

Lash princes are almost worthless against mechanized armies and are easily shot to pieces from afar and are easier to defeat in CC than Vulkan. Njal is also very dumb but is what, 240pts with 2 wounds? Lysander is nowhere near Vulkan's value for the points. He's hard, but Stubborn does not match twin linking flamers and meltas and MCing thunder hammers, and his Bolter Drill rule is exceedingly awkward on a heavy CC character with no bolter whom is best placed in a heavy CC unit that would likely lack bolters as well, and he's not *that* much worse than Vulkan in CC, especially against anything that isn't also a dead hard heavy CC unit.

Wow, lash princes are worthless against mech? And with those 9 obliterators the opponent is incapable of popping your transports or something? Heh.

 

The point stands; vulkan grants a passive bonus. He doesn't have an annoying move or a power that utterly screws up entire armies.

[Giga]

So far, all of the suggestions as to how to take down Vulkan and his Cheese-ified Crew involve armies that are not Space Marines (the only army I play). =) How does a Space Marine player take down He'stan?

How do you take out any MEQ with a 2+/3++ save? Shoot him, hit him with a pfist/thammer, etc. There's really nothing special about his survivability.

 

If you want general advice, most players who roll Vulkan put him in a land raider with 5 terminators and drive forward. Just blow up the land raider (mm attack bikes and mm/hf speeders do this really well) and proceed to rapid fire/flame the hell out of the now-footslogging vulkan & crew.

 

They will fail some saves, some of the terminators will die, vulkan might take a wound or two. On the whole if your opponent isn't terribly lucky, after getting rapid fired/flamed (you should have at least 2 tactical squads + maybe sternguard nearby for this purpose), he will have maybe 1-2 terminators (out of 5) left + vulkan. At this point you assault them with your own th/ss terminators and killy HQ. Your killy HQ (a captain with relic blade, let's say) hits the terminators and does 2-3 wounds so he should kill one termy, and vulkan does the asme to you. At this point you got 3-4 termies left. Use 2-3 of them on Vulkan, and he'll likely take some wounds and one failed save is all you need. You HQ is not so likely to die to a single terminator.

 

This is how I did it and how other people did it to me. Kills vulkan & friends just fine, and I never really felt it was any problem TBH. I find lysander+th/ss termies to be a lot more dangerous.

 

EDIT: However, you must NEVER approach this maneuver lightly. It's a game-turning tactic. If your battle plan involves killing Vulkan (there are other ways to deal with it), then you must focus and execute a proper strategy to do this. You must know you will do this and plan for it from turn 1, committing most of your army to this goal.

 

Vulkan + landraider with multimelta & extra armor + 5 th/ss termies cost 665 pts. In 1500 pts games, that's almost half your opponent's overall points, and you must respect that and keep it in mind. You aren't just killing some 125 pts vindicator, you're effectively ripping the heart out of the enemy army and if you do it properly, it'll probably demoralize the opponent to the point where he will hand you the victory. Most people can't bear to see their 665 pts unit destroyed in a single well-executed turn, and will consider themselves to have lost even if the battle is far from over.

 

EDIT#2: To me, executing this plan properly (destroying a LR + vulkan & termies in a single turn) is one of the pinnacles of 40k entertainment. It's always funny as hell when you play against someone who charges blindly forward with his LR, and you lure him into a trap and wipe out his "hammer unit" without him being able to do anything about it. The speed with which these people loose their cool is hilarious and very rewarding, especially since most of them actually believe vulkan is cheese and somehow unbeatable. :D

[thade]

People whining about Vulkan being "cheesy" and "overpowered" is just people who need a reason to complain. Vulkan only makes some of the weapons a vanilla army would take anyway more reliable. People already did math on him, and he's nowhere near as massive an improvement as people seem to believe, and nowhere near as "winbutton" as people WANT to think.

 

You know I'm going to call you out here on being condescending to me; I don't appreciate it. I don't need a reason to complain. Vulkan is my reason to complain. I guess I am more into "friendly" games than "tournament" games, and if you all respect me less for it, I accept that and return the favor. =P

 

I guess I'll go to go marine-horde for counter-Vulkan, as it undoes the strength of his army with no vehicles to vaporize. It also undoes the strength of my army though...my mobility. Perhaps it'll be a fun list with more application than I suspect.

[thade]

If you want general advice, most players who roll Vulkan put him in a land raider with 5 terminators and drive forward. Just blow up the land raider (mm attack bikes and mm/hf speeders do this really well) and proceed to rapid fire/flame the hell out of the now-footslogging vulkan & crew.

Again, killing Vulkan himself is not the issue. I did this with creative use of Combat Tactics and a Chaplain with an Assault Squad. It's all the meltas.

 

Someone mentioned taking four RPs with JotWW. This is actually against the rules per the Space Wolf codex as Space Wolves are not allowed to use the same set of wargear choices and upgrades; they are not allowed to use such "cheesy tactics" the codex says. A bit ironic, wouldn't you agree? :confused:

[Deus de Mortalis]

In a perfect environment, where both players have exactly the same skill, think in exactly the same way, can read each other's mind, and play on symmetrical terrain, with symmetrically placed objectives, I'd say yes, it'd boil down to luck.

 

In reality, this never happens. I've been playing competitive games since I was 7-8 (we played mortal combat#1 and organized mini-tournaments :confused:), and I'm 24 now, and in all this time I've never once encountered a situation you describe, where both players are so equally matched that the game boils down to luck. Also, if both players having similar armies was all that boring, chess would've died out ages ago.

 

Chess doesn't involve luck and is purely a game of skill. Also every time you play you know that the opponent isn't going to have a vulkan up his sleeve that lets pawns move side to side. The only advantage either player can have is in his or her skill at playing chess, not that one player has an extra queen.

 

40k is a game of skill and luck. Vulkan pushes the odds more in your favor. You can send attacks bikes to stop a land raider, but you hope they will stop it. With vulkan you know they will get the job done. It is like playing blackjack, and then playing blackjack while counting cards. While both times there is an element of chance, the player counting cards will undoubtedly come out ahead of the player who doesn't.

 

And I don't know about you, but I've played games that came down to a single roll of a die.

 

As I said, Vulkan is great, and probably better then other HQ choices in C:SM... But what's the big deal? An autarch has a great ability, and so do Pedro, Khan, Lysander etc. and yet Vulkan is still probably better then them. It's internal imbalance, so who cares? We're players. We buy a codex and we make lists, and if the codex happens to have one thing that's better then other things, then there is no reason why we shouldn't use it. It's there to be used, for crying out loud.

 

"What's the big deal?" Anyone who wants to build a list that is not built around vulkan's ability suffers from being at a disadvantage against him. You make it sound like vulkan 'might' be better, when he clearly is. When I first got my 5E codex I realized how powerful he was relative to other HQ's, even without reading anything about him on the internet. I almost couldn't believe it and I thought up a number of lists around him before I realized how broken and cheesy he was.

 

I would also like to correct you on the "Vulkan requires less skill" thing. It's not true. Vulkan requires just as much skill as most other HQs, because once you deploy him, you play him in exactly the same way as you would a similarly geared captain or master or w/e. Your army just has less reliance on luck and you have a higher statistical chance to have your plans come to fruition. It has nothing to do with player skill. No amount of skill can help you roll bad, but Vulkan is there to nullify the effects of bad rolling, and that is a good thing because the player doesn't waste mental energy on dice and can instead focus on executing his plan.

 

You are talking about exactly the reason vulkan is despised! He tips the games in you favor. Any list that has a significant advantage on paper, before the game even begins, requires less skill to play than the list it has an advantage over. "Less reliant on luck" = distinct advantage. The more advantage you have, the less skill you need to have relative to another player in order for the game to be an equal contest.

 

Also, I wasn't comparing vulkan to a lash prince on a one-to-one basis. I'm talking about the bigger picture here. Fighting against vulkan armies only means you need to win through generalship, rather then hoping your opponent rolls bad. I for one fought against vulkan a million times with a variety of lists, and never felt it was overpowered.

 

Maybe you haven't played against a good player with a Vulkan list of doom while using a marine army without vulkan and not specifically tailored to try to counter him. And if you like using your generalship versus a superior foe, why on earth do you use vulkan?

 

Again, so what? Does your fun factor comes from what an opponent has in his army? Sorry, but MY fun comes from a hard fought battle and the general joy of competition. Vulkan is actually very fun to play against because you have to think hard to win, rather then playing on autopilot like you have to do against things like necrons or nidzilla.

Maybe for you, but for me the game is frustrating when I know that my flamers and attack bikes aren't as good as my opponent's. But like I said before, if you like a hard fought battle and not one that was decided by your choice in HQ and building a list around his power, why do you play vulkan? And this is just more you are saying in support of the argument of vulkan being broken.

 

 

Wow, lash princes are worthless against mech? And with those 9 obliterators the opponent is incapable of popping your transports or something? Heh.

 

Sure 9 obliterators are cheesy, but they come at a huge cost in points. Vulkan's special rule is cheesy, but you don't pay for it. There is literally no disadvantage to taking vulkan other than having people roll their eyes at you when they read your army list.

 

The point stands; vulkan grants a passive bonus. He doesn't have an annoying move or a power that utterly screws up entire armies.

 

He doesn't have to utterly screw up entire armies in order to be broken. This "passive bonus" as you call it confers a distinct advantage to any army fielding him versus an army without him. This advantage can range from minimal in a list that just throws him in, or huge in a list completely built around his ability, especially at the 1750pt level and above.

[Vaktathi]

In a perfect environment, where both players have exactly the same skill, think in exactly the same way, can read each other's mind, and play on symmetrical terrain, with symmetrically placed objectives, I'd say yes, it'd boil down to luck.

 

In reality, this never happens. I've been playing competitive games since I was 7-8 (we played mortal combat#1 and organized mini-tournaments :P), and I'm 24 now, and in all this time I've never once encountered a situation you describe, where both players are so equally matched that the game boils down to luck.

True to an extent, however I still find that dice rolling and turn order in that situation, as long as each player is playing roughly about as well, will make more of a difference than anything else.

 

Also, if both players having similar armies was all that boring, chess would've died out ages ago.

I hate chess :P it is boring and far too mathematical.

 

As I said, Vulkan is great, and probably better then other HQ choices in C:SM... But what's the big deal? An autarch has a great ability, and so do Pedro, Khan, Lysander etc. and yet Vulkan is still probably better then them. It's internal imbalance, so who cares? We're players. We buy a codex and we make lists, and if the codex happens to have one thing that's better then other things, then there is no reason why we shouldn't use it. It's there to be used, for crying out loud.

I'm not ranting against SM players, I'm ranting more against Matt Ward in his inability to see that Vulkan is such a no-brainer choice. I'm ranting against the commonality and lack of variation I see in SM armies. Not against you, so if I come off like that I apologize, it's just infurtating how Vulkan got by the playtesters. A couple OP things in a book are fine, especially if in competition with each other, but when it's going to create such a distinct commonality in armies and is such a clear and obvious choice, then there's little point in much of the rest of the book.

 

 

I would also like to correct you on the "Vulkan requires less skill" thing. It's not true. Vulkan requires just as much skill as most other HQs, because once you deploy him, you play him in exactly the same way as you would a similarly geared captain or master or w/e.

Except that Vulkan is more capable and makes the rest of the army more dependable, removing much of the need to plan for things to fail or set up secondary plans.

 

Your army just has less reliance on luck and you have a higher statistical chance to have your plans come to fruition. It has nothing to do with player skill. No amount of skill can help you roll bad, but Vulkan is there to nullify the effects of bad rolling, and that is a good thing because the player doesn't waste mental energy on dice and can instead focus on executing his plan.

Um...so playing a list with assured mitigation on bad dice rolls doesn't in any way require less skill? If my Tau or Imperial Guard were all BS5, meaning I only had to worry about rolling 1's instead of 2's and 3's, It wouldn't require any less skill than if everything remained BS3? A much more extreme example to be sure, but still applicable. Any time bad luck and odds against you are mitigated, less skill is required to work with what you have to achieve victory.

 

Yeah, and he dies to a powerfist sergeant. Or to a single shot from a str8 weapon.

However he's got a 2+/3++ making him harder to kill than the majority of SC's in the game. That 3++ is huge, considering the vast majority of characters and SC's in the game have only a 5, with some having a 4.

 

He is also toughness 4, which means he can be wounded by any weapon in the game.

So can a DP at T5. In fact, the only SC I can think of that can't are the C'tan.

 

Also, I wasn't comparing vulkan to a lash prince on a one-to-one basis. I'm talking about the bigger picture here. Fighting against vulkan armies only means you need to win through generalship, rather then hoping your opponent rolls bad. I for one fought against vulkan a million times with a variety of lists, and never felt it was overpowered.

A lash prince army requires you only to kill those one or two models to destroy their strategy. With Vulkan, you can kill vulkan and he still offers his benefit to the rest of the army.

 

Again, so what? Does your fun factor comes from what an opponent has in his army? Sorry, but MY fun comes from a hard fought battle and the general joy of competition. Vulkan is actually very fun to play against because you have to think hard to win, rather then playing on autopilot like you have to do against things like necrons or nidzilla.

When it's almost the only SM list you play, it's not hard to figure out how it's going to play out. Necrons aren't fun because they are easy to beat and don't offer any challenge. Vulkan isn't fun for me at this point because I know exactly how the army is going to play and can counter everything in advance. I've never said Vulkan armies are unbeatable, only that Vulkan is significantly undercosted and makes taking any other options rather pointless unless going for a very specific build. My point has been simply that Vulkan and his benefit are far and away better than any alternative choice and as such become annoying and commonplace. Are they undefeatable? Not by any means at all, however I do find that playing other SM lists is an uphill battle that requires greater skill on the non-vulkan players part as the Vulkan player will have more mitigation of mistakes and bad dice rolls.

 

I've actually pretty soundly beaten the last few Vulkan armies I've played, precisely because they are so predictable, both in build and operation. As an opponent they aren't exceedingly hard to beat, they are just predictable and commonplace, and clearly superior to most non-vukan SM lists. I'd take my mechanized Imperial Guard over Vulkan in terms of competitiveness however I've yet to run into an identical IG list there's no one thing that makes that army more powerful than another build or army, rather the synergy between a combination of units.

 

 

Wow, lash princes are worthless against mech? And with those 9 obliterators the opponent is incapable of popping your transports or something? Heh.

That relies on popping the transports and the Lash prince being in range to lash the units, which means generally not until turn 3 mostly turn 2 at the earliest. Getting everything out of the transports and in a position to lash is hard against an opponent who knows exactly whats up. Is Lash mean? Yes. I wish it had never been included in the CSM book. That said, Lash relies entirely on one or two models, it's easy to work around and the DP is relatively easy to kill. T5 with 4 wounds and a 3+/5+ is tough for an individual model, but he's not going to live through much heavy weapons fire. Also the value of lash-spam varies greatly depending on what army you are playing. Against a footslogging CC oriented MEQ army, it will be absolute murder. Against a mechanized Imperial Guard army, it's going to get torn to pieces as it just can't kill enough stuff fast enough. Lashing a 65pt infantry squad and dumping 3 plasma cannons from a 225pt unit onto it is hardly cost efficient. Lash princes also have a competitor in terms of cost efficiency killyness from Khorne DP's and in terms of overall value (by being hard to kill, fast and killy) from nurgle warptime DP's.

 

Vulkan armies do not suffer from this gradient of efficiency, and do not break down after losing one or two models.

 

The point stands; vulkan grants a passive bonus. He doesn't have an annoying move or a power that utterly screws up entire armies.

I'd say twin linking melta and flamer weapons can do that pretty well, and it still applies after he's dead, unlike every other armies SC's abilities. Just because it's a passive bonus doesn't mean it's not incredibly powerful.

[Giga]

Chess doesn't involve luck and is purely a game of skill. Also every time you play you know that the opponent isn't going to have a vulkan up his sleeve that lets pawns move side to side. The only advantage either player can have is in his or her skill at playing chess, not that one player has an extra queen.

Your comparison is wrong. Vulkan doesn't allow you to move the pawns side to side. He doesn't change the rules of the game unlike things like lash do. His meltas don't suddenly become str9. He only makes his own units more reliable. It's a huge difference.

 

Second, in chess there is a very clear advantage in favor of the player who gets the first turn. This is a well-known fact that confirms that, yeah, not even chess is 100% balanced.

 

Read up a bit; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-move_advantage_in_chess

"What's the big deal?" Anyone who wants to build a list that is not built around vulkan's ability suffers from being at a disadvantage against him. You make it sound like vulkan 'might' be better, when he clearly is. When I first got my 5E codex I realized how powerful he was relative to other HQ's, even without reading anything about him on the internet. I almost couldn't believe it and I thought up a number of lists around him before I realized how broken and cheesy he was.

Vulkan is powerful, but not nearly as "omg oh noes overpowered" as you people keep trying to make it look. As I said, I've beaten vulkan lists with a variety of non-vulkan lists. With Pedro lists and bike captain lists, for example, I've never felt myself being at any real disadvantage.

You are talking about exactly the reason vulkan is despised! He tips the games in you favor. Any list that has a significant advantage on paper, before the game even begins, requires less skill to play than the list it has an advantage over. "Less reliant on luck" = distinct advantage. The more advantage you have, the less skill you need to have relative to another player in order for the game to be an equal contest.

Bollocks. You use your attack bikes and the like exactly the same as you would in most other lists. The only difference is you don't rely on luck as much, which is a bonus as it promotes tactical thinking rather then letting the game rely on luck. This is good for your opponent, too, because now he knows he can't rely or hope your crucial melta shots will miss, and has to adapt accordingly.

 

The concept that 3 vulkan attack bikes are 100% sure to destroy a tank is also typical intrawebz overreacting. If you're playing seriously and you need to destroy a tank, you don't rely on only 3 attack bikes to do it, tl-ed meltas or not. You always involve more stuff in there - same as you would do in a non-vulkan list.

Maybe for you, but for me the game is frustrating when I know that my flamers and attack bikes aren't as good as my opponent's. But like I said before, if you like a hard fought battle and not one that was decided by your choice in HQ and building a list around his power, why do you play vulkan? And this is just more you are saying in support of the argument of vulkan being broken.

So what if your flamers & meltas aren't as good? You have pedro for example, so now you have scoring sternguard, armywide stubborn, and your entire army is getting +1 attack in close combat. Or you have lysander, and your tacticals holding an objective now get a 3+ cover save, you get armywide stubborn, and your HQ is a beast that also unlocks a command squad. Or you have a bike captain, so you got bikers as troops, access to command squad, and combat tactics. Or you have Khan, and your attack bikes are suddenly capable of popping up behind enemy lines, while your HQ grants furious charge and has an I5 instantdeath-inducing weapon, etc.

 

You're trying to make it seem like all these things are somehow completely useless and helpless in face of Vulkan. That is not true. All of those are hard, good HQs that open up the possibility to make hard, powerful lists. They offer good advantages that are devastating when used correctly - just like Vulkan's own chapter tactics are. Stop trying to represent Vulkan as the only viable HQ in C:SM.

 

As for the question of why I use Vulkan; who says I use Vulkan all the time, or even occasionally? And besides, why shouldn't I use him? He's a powerful choice, and probably overall best in C:SM, but that doesn't make him a winbutton. He doesn't break the game. He doesn't make entire lists invalidated.

Sure 9 obliterators are cheesy, but they come at a huge cost in points. Vulkan's special rule is cheesy, but you don't pay for it. There is literally no disadvantage to taking vulkan other than having people roll their eyes at you when they read your army list.

 

He doesn't have to utterly screw up entire armies in order to be broken. This "passive bonus" as you call it confers a distinct advantage to any army fielding him versus an army without him. This advantage can range from minimal in a list that just throws him in, or huge in a list completely built around his ability, especially at the 1750pt level and above.

Unless something is directly screwing up the validity of many lists (the way lash makes non-mech armies useless, which means it makes some entire codexes useless), it's not "broken" or "cheesy" and especially not "gamebreaking" as far as I'm concerned. I don't even believe there is such a thing as "cheese." If it's allowed by the rules, it's fine in my book. The ONLY thing in whole of 40k that I think could be labeled as gamebreaking is dual lash 9 oblits - not because it's unbeatable, but because it takes away from the variation by invalidating entire codexes.

Except that Vulkan is more capable and makes the rest of the army more dependable, removing much of the need to plan for things to fail or set up secondary plans.

Um...so playing a list with assured mitigation on bad dice rolls doesn't in any way require less skill? If my Tau or Imperial Guard were all BS5, meaning I only had to worry about rolling 1's instead of 2's and 3's, It wouldn't require any less skill than if everything remained BS3? A much more extreme example to be sure, but still applicable. Any time bad luck and odds against you are mitigated, less skill is required to work with what you have to achieve victory.

Try to play Vulkan like that, with the belief that because your meltas/flamers are tl-ed you have nothing to worry about, and you're bound for a tuff surprise. ^_^

However he's got a 2+/3++ making him harder to kill than the majority of SC's in the game. That 3++ is huge, considering the vast majority of characters and SC's in the game have only a 5, with some having a 4.

 

So can a DP at T5. In fact, the only SC I can think of that can't are the C'tan.

Now look at the To Wound chart, and you'll notice the DP is a lot harder to wound then Vulkan. Hence Vulkan gets better armor and inv, and the DPs and the like get higher toughness and more wounds. It's fine. ;)

When it's almost the only SM list you play, it's not hard to figure out how it's going to play out. Necrons aren't fun because they are easy to beat and don't offer any challenge. Vulkan isn't fun for me at this point because I know exactly how the army is going to play and can counter everything in advance. I've never said Vulkan armies are unbeatable, only that Vulkan is significantly undercosted and makes taking any other options rather pointless unless going for a very specific build. My point has been simply that Vulkan and his benefit are far and away better than any alternative choice and as such become annoying and commonplace. Are they undefeatable? Not by any means at all, however I do find that playing other SM lists is an uphill battle that requires greater skill on the non-vulkan players part as the Vulkan player will have more mitigation of mistakes and bad dice rolls.

 

I've actually pretty soundly beaten the last few Vulkan armies I've played, precisely because they are so predictable, both in build and operation. As an opponent they aren't exceedingly hard to beat, they are just predictable and commonplace, and clearly superior to most non-vukan SM lists. I'd take my mechanized Imperial Guard over Vulkan in terms of competitiveness however I've yet to run into an identical IG list there's no one thing that makes that army more powerful than another build or army, rather the synergy between a combination of units.

TBH, as I stated a few times before, I don't find I need any more skill when I play my non-vulkan lists. The only thing I feel is I need more luck, but to me luck \= skill, so your whole argument about non-vulkan lists requiring more skill is moot as far as I'm concerned. Make of that what you want.

 

And I dunno what sort of Vulkan players you played. Most of them are pretty bad and are just playing lists they've took off teh intrawebz. I like to think that I win most of my matchups vs vulkan mainly because I know how to not play predictably while being able to predict the opponent's moves.

That relies on popping the transports and the Lash prince being in range to lash the units, which means generally not until turn 3 mostly turn 2 at the earliest. Getting everything out of the transports and in a position to lash is hard against an opponent who knows exactly whats up. Is Lash mean? Yes. I wish it had never been included in the CSM book. That said, Lash relies entirely on one or two models, it's easy to work around and the DP is relatively easy to kill. T5 with 4 wounds and a 3+/5+ is tough for an individual model, but he's not going to live through much heavy weapons fire. Also the value of lash-spam varies greatly depending on what army you are playing. Against a footslogging CC oriented MEQ army, it will be absolute murder. Against a mechanized Imperial Guard army, it's going to get torn to pieces as it just can't kill enough stuff fast enough. Lashing a 65pt infantry squad and dumping 3 plasma cannons from a 225pt unit onto it is hardly cost efficient. Lash princes also have a competitor in terms of cost efficiency killyness from Khorne DP's and in terms of overall value (by being hard to kill, fast and killy) from nurgle warptime DP's.

 

Vulkan armies do not suffer from this gradient of efficiency, and do not break down after losing one or two models.

CBA to get into discussion on dual lash tactics, so I'll say just this; Vulkan armies are powerful, but they're nowhere near as gamebreaking as dual lash. Period.

I'd say twin linking melta and flamer weapons can do that pretty well, and it still applies after he's dead, unlike every other armies SC's abilities. Just because it's a passive bonus doesn't mean it's not incredibly powerful.

It's very powerful, but it doesn't invalidate entire codexes, and it sure as hell doesn't invalidate other options in C:SM.

 

 

 

EDIT: If I was designing the 6th C:SM, the only thing I would change about Vulkan is make him 3+/4++, while keeping the price tag. I would do this not because I think Vulkan shouldn't have 2+/3++, but because by doing that it would encourage people to use standard captains and masters more, and Vulkan would become more like pedro, a support guy that can't just be thrown into the fray without consideration.

[rat of vengence]

I love you too, my dear scrub. :P

Still finding it difficult to have a coherent discussion without insulting people? ;)

 

I wouldn't bother arguing with Giga. Cheese is only what other people do in his opinion, if he plays it then therefore it is fine and okay, so why are you complaining... :D

 

I have been tempted to play Vulcan, but I don't because he is horribly undercosted, and has NO downside worth mentioning. I feel it isn't giving my opponent an enjoyable game, so I don't bother with him.

 

Incidently, I played a tournament recently with vanilla marines and a librarian (no special crutch, er, charater for me) and got 4 wins and two draws. Equal first on points, 2nd on number of wins. I faced 4 special characters in the 6 games, and found The Deciever and Njall the most over-the-top. No Vulcan for a change. But he was certainly there at the tournament. And there, and there, and over there...

 

RoV

[maturin]

Incidently, I played a tournament recently with vanilla marines and a librarian (no special crutch, er, charater for me) and got 4 wins and two draws. Equal first on points, 2nd on number of wins. I faced 4 special characters in the 6 games, and found The Deciever and Njall the most over-the-top. No Vulcan for a change. But he was certainly there at the tournament. And there, and there, and over there...

 

Inquiring minds want to know - did the Vulkan builds do better than the rest? It certainly sounds like you didn't have any trouble handling the special characters, RoV. Or is the metagame shifting enough so that people know how to handle Vulkan lists? :D

[rat of vengence]

To be honest, I think one got a top 5. I think it was largely the less experienced players using him, probably because he gives an edge. Most of the more experienced players were playing Space Puppies (newest, shiniest toy out) or Imperial Guard. Comp was a factor, which is a large reason as to me getting equal highest overall with two draws. One guy won all his games, but he took 5 Valkyries/Vendettas (in 1000 points) and this did not go down well. Another that did well was another Guard force with one or two of the Imperial Psycher squads in it; I didn't play it but I am told it was devestating. He got first (and deserved it to by all accounts :D).

 

As for the characters I took on, I did have trouble with some of them.

The Deceiver is by far the worst, yet in hindsight, the easiest to handle. I simply couldn't kill it after two rounds of firing EVERYTHING that could bear on it. It lost 1 wound. I realistically couldn't get to the two large squads of warriors in a big ruin in his deployment zone, so I fed a couple of combat squads to the Deceiver and basically ran away from it; towards half the objectives. It wasn't a hard win after I ignored it, but hey, The Deceiver doesn't buff half the rest of his army.

Njall was hardcore. He was taking down marines left right and centre with his powers, but made the mistake of getting within 18" of my main force to use one of his tricks. Between gunfire whittling down the squad he was with, and an assault squad with attached Librarian taking him on, I just killed him. Lost the entire squad and libby of course. This game was a draw.

Logan Grimnar was another one, but he drop-podded right in front of my army with 6 Wolfguard. By the time the smoke had cleared, the Libby/Assault squad just had to finish him off. Definitely a big deployment error there.

Ghazkull Thrakka was the other one. He was pretty hard to kill, and I lost a lot to his 6" waaaagh rule. To be honest, he might not have been as much trouble if I hadn't failed to kill his bloody AV10 truck in the first turn! Obviously the nobs inside were thinking 'Landraider' really hard... ;)

 

The main thing with all these special characters is that when they drop dead, they have no further effect on the game. Largely, their effect is limited to their immeadiate vincinity, either to the range of their powers, or the way their 'buff' is limited in its phase eg Ghazkull's waaagh rule. Vulkan buffs in combat and in shooting. He buffs against hordes and against armour. Plus he is tough as nails in himself. Overpowered and underpriced seems to be a consensus amongst most people except those who use him regularly (who want to think it is all skill and not the large edge Vulkan gives).

 

In my opinion anyway :P

 

RoV

[Giga]

Still finding it difficult to have a coherent discussion without insulting people? msn-wink.gif

 

I wouldn't bother arguing with Giga. Cheese is only what other people do in his opinion, if he plays it then therefore it is fine and okay, so why are you complaining...

I was just returning the favor. Oh and, there's no such thing as cheese.

I have been tempted to play Vulcan, but I don't because he is horribly undercosted, and has NO downside worth mentioning. I feel it isn't giving my opponent an enjoyable game, so I don't bother with him.

 

Incidently, I played a tournament recently with vanilla marines and a librarian (no special crutch, er, charater for me) and got 4 wins and two draws. Equal first on points, 2nd on number of wins. I faced 4 special characters in the 6 games, and found The Deciever and Njall the most over-the-top. No Vulcan for a change. But he was certainly there at the tournament. And there, and there, and over there...

Thank you for supporting my argument.

 

You played with a librarian (whom most of these "vulkan-is-a-winbutton" guys would probably consider an unviable HQ), and yet you got 2nd spot, good job. People like you are a proof that special characters are in no way a winbutton, and that players can do just as well with "underpowered" options as they can do with "winbutton" chars.

[rat of vengence]

Thank you for supporting my argument.

 

You played with a librarian (whom most of these "vulkan-is-a-winbutton" guys would probably consider an unviable HQ), and yet you got 2nd spot, good job. People like you are a proof that special characters are in no way a winbutton, and that players can do just as well with "underpowered" options as they can do with "winbutton" chars.

Um, no. You may have missed the point. Of the 4 games against special characters, I drew two (Ghazkull and Njall) and the others were basically won by the opponent not knowing how to use them. Dropping Logan in front of my entire army wasn't a great move. Using the Deceiver in 1000 points didn't leave the other guy the tools to deny me more than two objectives at a time. I don't want to think about taking on those Necrons in a kill point match.

 

You must have chosen those words quite carefully to manipulate what the others have been saying. Noone has said Vulkan is "a winbutton", but they and I agree that he is unbalanced and gives that army too much of an advantage for his cost, with no downside to speak of. I don't believe my army, or any selections was underpowered at all, it worked quite well together, a good bit of synergy going on in my opinion. And yet the Ork game was a genuine stalemate after Ghazkull ate my strike units, and the Spacepuppies game had me with practically nothing left after Njall had zapped everything.

 

Special characters are cool models, great fluff, and largely unbalanced in the game. Vulkan epitomises this.

 

RoV

 

Edited to make more sense. Bedtime now zzzzzzzzzz...

[maturin]

Special characters are cool models, great fluff, and largely unbalanced in the game. Vulkan epitomises this.

 

Agree, especially at the 1000 point level! I'm not a huge fan of GW's decision to use characters to vary the feel of armies - I rather like the chapter traits of 4th Ed.

 

As far as Vulkan's downsides - there is one huge one that no one's mentioned (aside from having an expensive HQ - a fairly important point in and of itself at lower point games). If you're building your army to take maximum advantage of his Chapter Tactics, then you've got an army that's best used at very close range - but not too close. Vulkan doesn't really buff the CC capabilities of any unit aside from TH/SS termies, and they are easily taken down by enough bolter fire (same as regular termies). To use your LR/LRC's multimelta, you have to get close enough that any monstrous creature is going to come a-tapping on your hull with (what seems like) a bajillion Str 10 hits. Khorne Berzerkers//Harlies/MC's/Genestealers/charging Orks/etc will still eat your tac squads in CC - no benefit from Vulkan there. Tau will still outshoot you at range. Etc, etc.

 

It limits you. You can counter with some "long range" weaponry. But if you start taking lascannons & heavy bolters - why take Vulkan at all?

[silversmith82]

Been watching this arguement with a bag of popcorn. Honestly, its silly to argue that Vulkan is not overpowered for his points. If you think he isn't you are just living in denial. Again, I'm saying FOR HIS POINTS. I am not saying he is instant win or cheese or anything like that. He may seem like that if you can't beat him, but if you're going to a tournament or have a guy at your store who plays him regularly you need to plan for SM armies taking him. He is part of the game and as such needs to be dealt with. So deal with him and when you do go in and just wipe out the Vulkan army that causes everyone else problems because you knew how to deal with it then its all the sweeter.

 

My personal hatred of "counts as" aside, if you do take him be prepared for the "omg cheese" attitude from many other players.

[thade]

You played with a librarian (whom most of these "vulkan-is-a-winbutton" guys would probably consider an unviable HQ), and yet you got 2nd spot, good job. People like you are a proof that special characters are in no way a winbutton, and that players can do just as well with "underpowered" options as they can do with "winbutton" chars.

 

For the record, I run a Librarian very, very frequently. With my Vanguard. He gets MotA and if I Epistolary him he'll sometimes get Quickening, but more often I just give him Gate as a secondary. Either way, his real use is shutting down my opponent's psychic powers.

 

The gist of the argument I've read above is, essentially, that Vulkan is the best special character the marines have to offer, and that's more or less the crux of my assertion that he's cheesy. If he cost 25-50 points more, I'd be much more forgiving of him, but he's otherwise too good, with such a universal and easily exploited buff (twin-linked meltas are amazingly effective) hitting 8 out of 9 times with a potential 2d6 armor pen and a +1 on the table...who wouldn't want that? Given that, he ought to be a cripple (basically a Librarian's stats with a 3+/4++ and a power weapon) but it turns out he's ridiculous in melee with a relic blade and a 2+/3++. So...where's the balance game-mechanic-wise? I don't see it.

 

My primary complaint against Vulkan is that he's universal and overdone. Because he is the best, you HAVE to have him. He's like the old school Channel spell (forgive the Magic reference) of the Space Marines. And so he depletes a lot of diversity and creativity from armies.

 

Giga, it sounds like you really enjoy him, and cheers to you for it. I apologize for calling him "cheesy" when what I meant to say was "trite". Please take no offense; Channel was a fun card to use, when you used it in ways people didn't expect, and perhaps Vulkan is the same way. The OP wants to do this, in a way, using lots of Flamers instead of Meltas. Maybe that will be okay.

[Jarl Bloodwolf]

ok so im pretty sure from the responses ive gotten that vulkan is wel worth taking. but everyone is talking about him being in a melta heavy army. my army is flamer heavy? is he still worth it for me if i dont take all the meltas i can? im pretty sure id be able to wipe out any horde armies and i know i wont have a all around army thats not what im looking for

[rat of vengence]

Special characters are cool models, great fluff, and largely unbalanced in the game. Vulkan epitomises this.

 

Agree, especially at the 1000 point level! I'm not a huge fan of GW's decision to use characters to vary the feel of armies - I rather like the chapter traits of 4th Ed.

 

As far as Vulkan's downsides - there is one huge one that no one's mentioned (aside from having an expensive HQ - a fairly important point in and of itself at lower point games). If you're building your army to take maximum advantage of his Chapter Tactics, then you've got an army that's best used at very close range - but not too close. Vulkan doesn't really buff the CC capabilities of any unit aside from TH/SS termies, and they are easily taken down by enough bolter fire (same as regular termies). To use your LR/LRC's multimelta, you have to get close enough that any monstrous creature is going to come a-tapping on your hull with (what seems like) a bajillion Str 10 hits. Khorne Berzerkers//Harlies/MC's/Genestealers/charging Orks/etc will still eat your tac squads in CC - no benefit from Vulkan there. Tau will still outshoot you at range. Etc, etc.

 

It limits you. You can counter with some "long range" weaponry. But if you start taking lascannons & heavy bolters - why take Vulkan at all?

That is a good point, but lets take my 1000 points for an example. It would twin-link my multimelta and my meltagun, as well as my flamer and heavy flamer. I would thenbe able to rely on these weapons to do horrible things, rather than hope. I would be less likely to need to task two or more units to the one targets anhilation, and would be able to hit more in the one turn. If I had Vulcan, I certainly could tailor my army to use his ability, but to call it a 'huge downside' is overstating it a fair bit. It just means the optimum build 'can' be different to make best use, but it doesn't have to be so.

 

Traits were very cool, all they had to do was take out the meanless disadvantages and have decent ones there.

 

RoV

[gdeathlegion]

ok so im pretty sure from the responses ive gotten that vulkan is wel worth taking. but everyone is talking about him being in a melta heavy army. my army is flamer heavy? is he still worth it for me if i dont take all the meltas i can? im pretty sure id be able to wipe out any horde armies and i know i wont have a all around army thats not what im looking for

 

Yes, he is still an excellent choice for you, flamers are excellent weapons in warhammer 40k. With one flamer you can inflict a ridiculous amount of wounds on dense infantry.

You should think about using rhinos to combat mega CC armies and force them to assault your vehicles, then pop out and flame the poor shmucks to death.

And you should consider using melta-weaponry in your army. No one is saying that you should use a lot, but a Ironclad with meltas could be an excellent anti-MC or anti-vehicle unit. Consider using some melta....

 

 

As far as the Vulkan discussion goes...

 

for 15 dollars (or whatever he costs), Vulkan is a fantastic buy to make a crappy space marine army a formidable force capable of tearing apart a much more menacing force (whether its a massive horde army with tough MCs, or a heavily mobilized and armored tank division). Personally I would rather pay over 450 RL dollars for tons of bikes to make a fully mobile biker list which gets TL-bolters, relentless, 12 inch move, and 3+ cover saves if I decide to move 2 feet for 10 pts more than a tactical space marine per bike (an excellent deal, and much deadlier and usefull than a Vulkan force) But I just don't have the dough. So right now I have a bog standard Spaez Mahreen army, no special rules, no special tricks, just ceramite, honor, and rhino APCs. Should I add Vulkan? My army would be soooooo much bettar.

 

Hells no. You can keep your special characters.