Vulkan Hestan

[silversmith82]

You don't have to have Vulkan to make your army "so much better". If that is your mentality then you need to re-tool and look at your strategy. Because any experienced player that routinely beats you is going to continue beating you wheter you have Vulkan or not. For example, when someone drop pods a dreadnought in, I assume it is going to hit with everything even though it can miss on a 1/3 of the time. Its just prudent planning. With Vulkan it'll hit 8/9ths of the time but the assumption does not change. For flamers? With the 5th ed rules for templates you try to stay the heck away from them regardless. And as far as combat? Vulkan himself is good but compared to Lysander or Calgar he is nothing special. Any combat squad with a powerfist is potential danger which is a big problem with him. I think a huge problem with special characters in general is people do indeed think that a special character will fix all their problems and make their army instant win. Yeah, special characters are good but without proper execution/strategy they won't win you the game.

 

As for taking him or not. Honestly do whatever you want. If you think he'll make your army better and meshes with your strategy then go for it you don't have to have anyone's permission. However just be aware that a TON of other people are going to have him and those that don't will likely have a strong opinion about him.

[Captain Idaho]

I agree. I think there is a common perception that Space Marines are only competetive when using Vulkan, and armies are geared to using his combat tactics abilities exclusively. This in my opinion just puts an artifical limit on what your list can do on the table top.

 

I reckon Vulkan can help a "normal" Space Marines list and utilise his strengths to help out the odd melta or flamer while his combat prowas can boost a Vanguard/Sternguard unit nicely.

 

Oh, for the record, Vulkan performs better against everything in CC than Lysander with the exception of high T enemies and the odd hidden PF that get's through his invulnerable save, as he wounds T4 models on a 2+ and re-rolls a miss and failed wound each turn, plus strikes at Initiative.

[Giga]

Of the 4 games against special characters, I drew two (Ghazkull and Njall) and the others were basically won by the opponent not knowing how to use them. Dropping Logan in front of my entire army wasn't a great move. Using the Deceiver in 1000 points didn't leave the other guy the tools to deny me more than two objectives at a time. I don't want to think about taking on those Necrons in a kill point match.

So you outskilled your opponents, what's the problem? They had these "largely unbalanced" and you still :cusspwned them and took 2nd place. Who cares if your opponents didn't know how to use the special characters or used them in stupid ways?

 

Take a look at the best of the best players playing each other, and you'll probably see a ton of things they should've done differently. Look at winning tournament lists, and you'll see many of them have units that seem like bad choices, and yet these guys win.

You must have chosen those words quite carefully to manipulate what the others have been saying. Noone has said Vulkan is "a winbutton"

Then read their posts again. You got people in this thread who are pretty much saying that any C:SM army without Vulkan is gimped, especially against vulkan lists. There are also people who believe that by including Vulkan in their army their armies will suddenly start winning more. Neither of these assumptions are true.

The gist of the argument I've read above is, essentially, that Vulkan is the best special character the marines have to offer, and that's more or less the crux of my assertion that he's cheesy.

So, because people believe that he's the best SC in C:SM, that suddenly makes him cheesy?

 

Sorry but, following that logic, daemon princes are cheesy because they're the best HQ in C:CSM, and IG veterans are cheesy because they're the best troops choice in IG dex, and tactical marines are probably cheesy because they're the best troop choice in C:SM, etc.

 

Just because teh intrawebz thinks something is "the best for a given slot", doesn't mean it's overpowered or unbeatable.

Oh, for the record, Vulkan performs better against everything in CC than Lysander with the exception of high T enemies and the odd hidden PF that get's through his invulnerable save, as he wounds T4 models on a 2+ and re-rolls a miss and failed wound each turn, plus strikes at Initiative.

What about multiple wound models (nobz, obliterators, ICs etc.) and vehicles? These are tough nuts to crack in close combat, and that's where Lysander shines. Vulkan is a light infantry/MEQ killer. Lysander is chuck norris.

[kaiserstole20]

I think Vulkan is certainly unbalanced for his points. I wish GW had either toned down his special abilities or increased his cost substantially. But they didn't, oh well. The result is cookie-cutter marine lists.

 

My friends and I have a gentleman's agreement to not use SCs to encourage different lists. This works out very well for us. In tournaments you have to expect nothing but competitive lists and power gamers. That means lots of Vulkan. It's annoying but you can't blame people for it.

 

The one nice thing about all those Vulkan lists is that you know they have to get right up close to you for maximum effect. You can design your list to counter that. It won't work all the time but it's still fun to try.

[thade]

The gist of the argument I've read above is, essentially, that Vulkan is the best special character the marines have to offer, and that's more or less the crux of my assertion that he's cheesy.

So, because people believe that he's the best SC in C:SM, that suddenly makes him cheesy?

 

Sorry but, following that logic, daemon princes are cheesy because they're the best HQ in C:CSM, and IG veterans are cheesy because they're the best troops choice in IG dex, and tactical marines are probably cheesy because they're the best troop choice in C:SM, etc.

I suppose it'd be too much for me to assume you read the rest of my post, as you have lump-categorized me into "the bunch of whiners that call Vulkan a win-button", but if you had, you'd see I went on to talk about how imbalanced he is pointwise.

 

A Demon Prince is NOT cheesy because he is not under-costed for what he does. At 140 (the typically winged Demon Prince) he is a close range combat nightmare. As he's not an IC he can't bury himself in a unit (Vulkan can) can't ride in a transport (Vulkan can); not to mention he doesn't improve the weaponry of the entire force by just being in the force listing. For the cost of a few marines more, Vulkan is ridiculous. And with a 3++ save, master-crafted S6 power weapon, he could go one on one with a vanilla Demon Prince and come out okay. Unless maybe you bought the Demon Prince Warptime...increasing the cost of the Prince to bring him up to Vulkan's level...and well, that's my point, really.

 

Vulkan is cheesy because he's a budget super-powered character. If he was either not-budget (i.e. more points) or non-super-powered (i.e. either wasn't invincible in CC or didn't improve the weaponry of the entire force) he would not be cheesy in my eyes. I think he' a crutch when used in an all-melta list.

 

Thanks for the example of the Demon Prince. You couldn't have aided my argument anymore than that. :)

[Deus de Mortalis]

Giga, you are not arguing against what people in this thread are saying. Vulkan is undercosted for his points, and extremely undercosted when the entire list is built around his special rule. Nobody is saying that he is the ultimate solution to anyone's lists or that he will automatically make a poor player good. He confers an awesome benefit, of varying power depending on the list, to the army for no cost in points. Points values are there to try to maintain balance between army lists of different composition. There are always problems with this to varying degrees. Usually units cost too much, so are seldom seen. Sometimes though units are priced below their effectiveness, like with the power of storm shield termies in the 5th edition codex, or a more obvious and egregious violation of this balance that calls itself Vulkan He'Stan. He is obviously an unbalanced character because of the power he adds to a list for his relatively few points. This is why he is called cheesy. He is obviously the easy choice when building a powerful marine list. I'm not saying that any other list must be inferior, but Vulkan's special rule makes up for a hell of a lot.

[Captain Idaho]

Well, Vulkan is probably just as good against Obliterators, because there is rarely more than 2 in a unit, and he can kill one a turn easily enough, reducing a 2 man Obliterator units powerfist attacks back, reducing the likelyhood of a wound getting through the invulnerable:

 

But I concede most multiple wound enemies are going to get beaten down better by Lysander (missed Ork Nobz in my 1st post!). Still, Vulkan is dang hard in CC anyway and I would prefer his capabilities and all round fighting ability over Lysander.

[Giga]

Concerning the "Vulkan is undercosted" thing, I disagree.

 

I think Vulkan is priced quite accordingly for what he does. The problem is that standard HQs are overcosted.

 

Ask yourself, if Vulkan was 220-250 pts, would that make the generic captains and chaplains and the like better? Nah, you'd still dish out the points for Vulkan, and those 50 points wouldn't make a difference - it'd be like, one less attack bike in the army. The only thing it'd accomplish would be to promote other SCs, so you'd end up seeing more of lysander and pedro.

 

What GW should've done was make the standard HQs considerably better or at least much cheaper then the SCs, but that's a minor internal balance issue in an otherwise great codex, so who cares.

A Demon Prince is NOT cheesy because he is not under-costed for what he does. At 140 (the typically winged Demon Prince) he is a close range combat nightmare. As he's not an IC he can't bury himself in a unit (Vulkan can) can't ride in a transport (Vulkan can); not to mention he doesn't improve the weaponry of the entire force by just being in the force listing. For the cost of a few marines more, Vulkan is ridiculous. And with a 3++ save, master-crafted S6 power weapon, he could go one on one with a vanilla Demon Prince and come out okay. Unless maybe you bought the Demon Prince Warptime...increasing the cost of the Prince to bring him up to Vulkan's level...and well, that's my point, really.

Of course Vulkan should be able to kill a barebones daemon prince. A barebones DP is 110 points. Full 80 points less then Vulkan.

 

On the other hand, a full wings, MoN, warptime daemon prince is 175 pts, still cheaper then Vulkan, and more then capable of killing Vulkan 1on1. It still doesn't change the fact that a DP is miles better then both the lord and the sorcerer in the chaos codex, so I really have no clue why you're even comparing Vulkan to a DP on a 1on1 basis.

 

 

 

 

BTW, here's a really good article that everyone who thinks getting vulkan & maxing out on melta/flamers is the road to victory should read; http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2009/10/40k...good-thing.html

[thade]

Of course Vulkan should be able to kill a barebones daemon prince. A barebones DP is 110 points. Full 80 points less then Vulkan.

 

On the other hand, a full wings, MoN, warptime daemon prince is 175 pts, still cheaper then Vulkan, and more then capable of killing Vulkan 1on1. It still doesn't change the fact that a DP is miles better then both the lord and the sorcerer in the chaos codex, so I really have no clue why you're even comparing Vulkan to a DP on a 1on1 basis.

 

Go back and read my full post. <3

 

Vulkan costs more and can beat the DP, sure. Fine. But he ALSO radically improves the army overall, making all of their weapons hit 8/9 instead of 4/6. A DP-eating combat monster with the make-your-meltas-awesome all in one cheaply priced package? o_O No wonder you always take him. He's Superman.

 

That said, if all the standard HQs in the Dex cost less for more, maybe I wouldn't complain so much about Vulkan. Still, if I had to choose between rebalancing all vanilla HQ choices vs rebalancing the cost of a single model...I think the quickest route here would be to increase Vulkan's point cost. If you would still take him at 250 because he's worth that much...why doesn't he cost that much?

[thade]

BTW, here's a really good article that everyone who thinks getting vulkan & maxing out on melta/flamers is the road to victory should read; http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2009/10/40k...good-thing.html

 

I wouldn't call that a really good article.

 

First of all, shaking a transport does not prevent the models within from disembarking, nor does it prevent the model from rotating. (Both of these topics have recently been addressed on the Official Rules board.) The article is either antiquated, or the author doesn't know much about the Vehicles chapter; either prospect devalues the article.

 

Second of all, I know a lot of people who take Extra Armor, even on Rhinos. Personally, I take it as standard on Dreads and Land Raiders, because of conversations I've had on these forums.

 

Third, sure, meltas have limited range...however if EVERY unit has one to three meltas (melta, combi-, and multi) and they are mobilized and well spread, how are you going to keep out of range of all that melta fire? 8 out if 9 is very, very good odds of a hit. 2+ are very, very good odds of an instant kill on a model. +1 on the table, even if it's glances all around, is eventually going to strip your vehicle down to nothing and wreck it. It's a lot of heat rays.

 

I mean, you must know this...because you run a Vulkan list. How often do you get beat with your Vulkan list by other mechanized marines? What is it that they do to beat you? Do they take Vulkan? Do they take only troops?

[Giga]

That said, if all the standard HQs in the Dex cost less for more, maybe I wouldn't complain so much about Vulkan. Still, if I had to choose between rebalancing all vanilla HQ choices vs rebalancing the cost of a single model...I think the quickest route here would be to increase Vulkan's point cost. If you would still take him at 250 because he's worth that much...why doesn't he cost that much?

Rebalancing the cost of Vulkan would accomplish only one thing; it would make people take Pedro, Lysander, and Shrike more often. People would still take him all the time even if he was 250 pts. Hell, even if he was 350 pts he still wouldn't be balanced, because at that point he'd be like vanguard - overpriced for what he does, and hence non-viable.

 

The problem is, you CANT balance Vulkan by making him costlier. The reason so many people take Vulkan is because generic HQs and Combat Tactics just aren't good enough for the price. Making Vulkan pricier wouldn't change that.

I wouldn't call that a really good article.

 

First of all, shaking a transport does not prevent the models within from disembarking, nor does it prevent the model from rotating. (Both of these topics have recently been addressed on the Official Rules board.) The article is either antiquated, or the author doesn't know much about the Vehicles chapter; either prospect devalues the article.

 

Second of all, I know a lot of people who take Extra Armor, even on Rhinos. Personally, I take it as standard on Dreads and Land Raiders, because of conversations I've had on these forums.

Dude, that's just an example. It wasn't the point of the article. Seriously, CBA to explain.

[rat of vengence]

So you outskilled your opponents, what's the problem? They had these "largely unbalanced" and you still :cusspwned them and took 2nd place. Who cares if your opponents didn't know how to use the special characters or used them in stupid ways?

You don't seem to remember what you yourself posted. You had the mistaken impression that me beating these lists showed they weren't overly powerful, I explained you were wrong with examples. Keep up please mate.

 

Then read their posts again. You got people in this thread who are pretty much saying that any C:SM army without Vulkan is gimped, especially against vulkan lists. There are also people who believe that by including Vulkan in their army their armies will suddenly start winning more. Neither of these assumptions are true.

Which is different to calling him a winbutton, which you said they did. They didn't.

 

Concerning the "Vulkan is undercosted" thing, I disagree.

 

I think Vulkan is priced quite accordingly for what he does. The problem is that standard HQs are overcosted.

ROFLMAO! So it isn't that Vulkan is too cheap, its that everyone else is too expensive?

 

That's pathetic... :tu: Your excuses are getting more lame as we go.

 

RoV

[Giga]

Lol, pointless to argue with you, so I'll just point out the thing that's relevant for the thread;

 

I never said "everyone else is too expensive" (please, quote me if I said that somewhere).

 

I said that generic HQs don't do enough for their price. If you removed Vulkan, all that would happen is that every C:SM list would contain Pedro/Lysander/Shrike, and then you'd have people complaining how Pedro/Lysander/Shrike are boring/overpowered because every marine list has them. It wouldn't balance anything out, because the problem is in the way the codex is designed, not in Vulkan himself.

 

If you don't understand that, then I really give up trying to talk sense to you.

[rat of vengence]

If you don't understand that, then I really give up trying to talk sense to you.

Woohoo!

 

:lol:

 

RoV

[thade]

Rebalancing the cost of Vulkan would accomplish only one thing; it would make people take Pedro, Lysander, and Shrike more often. People would still take him all the time even if he was 250 pts. Hell, even if he was 350 pts he still wouldn't be balanced, because at that point he'd be like vanguard - overpriced for what he does, and hence non-viable.

Fantastic. Bring on the diversity. Oh, and Vanguard are not overpriced, by the way; they are a freakin bargain. <3

 

The problem is, you CANT balance Vulkan by making him costlier. The reason so many people take Vulkan is because generic HQs and Combat Tactics just aren't good enough for the price. Making Vulkan pricier wouldn't change that.

I use Combat Tactics with pretty regular frequency, so I feel the loss when I take an HQ that replaces it. You don't, I take it? You have been missing out.

 

Dude, that's just an example. It wasn't the point of the article. Seriously, CBA to explain.

That was the point of the article, and it conveyed it poorly, and failed to make it's point due to its inaccuracies. I appreciate you citing something to support your viewpoint, but when you do you should make sure it does actually support your viewpoint.

 

Anyway, it's clear that we won't reach an agreement here. The counterpoints seem to be this:

1. Vulkan is very good but should cost more points.

2. Vulkan is TOO AWESOME to cost more points.

 

Very hard to find a compromise there.

[Gornall]

While I think Vulkan is undercosted, he's far from an always take. His Chapter Tactics rule encourages a specific playstyle (up close and personal), just like Pedro's encourages a different one or a Bike Captain a different one. If you're already using his melta/flamer spam playstyle, then yes, taking him will improve your existing list. Same with including Shrike in a CC list. You can do it without him, but if you include him, you get a potentially stronger army. At the end of the day, while Vulkan is a very popular character for tournament lists, he is far from being the only way to go. Further, if you look at the major tournaments I don't see Vulkan Marines taking home any trophies--making me wonder if maybe the Vulkan lists aren't all they're cracked up to be. I know in my current meta, the Tau and Mech Eldar players make lists with limited range or LR spam die horrible, horrible deaths, limiting the usefulness of the standard Vulkan build. Once again, I do think he's probably the best priced SC in the Marine Codex (except for Cassius), but that doesn't mean he's broken in any stretch, especially when compared to options from other codices.

[Jarl Bloodwolf]

By the emperor what a monster i have created......just been watching my post since i put it up. its kinda funny how its evolved in to a brawl big enough to shake the fang, i thank everyone for their input so far

[thade]

By the emperor what a monster i have created......just been watching my post since i put it up. its kinda funny how its evolved in to a brawl big enough to shake the fang, i thank everyone for their input so far

 

This happens. =) It is the Internet, after all.

[Iron_Chaos_Brute]

By the emperor what a monster i have created......just been watching my post since i put it up. its kinda funny how its evolved in to a brawl big enough to shake the fang, i thank everyone for their input so far

 

This happens. =) It is the Internet, after all.

QFT. That's why I posted my opinion and ran this time around :D

[Hfran Morkai]

By the emperor what a monster i have created......just been watching my post since i put it up. its kinda funny how its evolved in to a brawl big enough to shake the fang, i thank everyone for their input so far

 

The Fang'd still be sound as ever brother.

 

What I want to see is someone take Vulkan without any flamer/melta weapons in their army(barring his gauntlet), purely for the character himself.

[Giga]

Gornall said it really well. Vulkan is great, but far from broken.

 

(I was about to make another comprehensive reply here, but then I realized I would just be wasting my time, because the Vulkan haters here didn't really come here to discuss anything in the first place, so any argument is lost on them. Ah well, more fool me for trying to talk sense to scrubs.)

[thade]

Gornall said it really well. Vulkan is great, but far from broken.

 

(I was about to make another comprehensive reply here, but then I realized I would just be wasting my time, because the Vulkan haters here didn't really come here to discuss anything in the first place, so any argument is lost on them. Ah well, more fool me for trying to talk sense to scrubs.)

 

You don't really talk sense to anyone: you mudsling pejoratives and say AH HA! which in the world of arguing is more akin to...not...arguing. :D I don't hate Vulkan. I just think he should cost more points. While you failed to provide evidence otherwise, you needn't fear: you still get to use your crutch all you like, scrub.

 

I will actually be using my Vulkan Counts-As starting next week in a list with no meltas and no flamers. I'd decided this before this thread, but after this thread I only feel more convicted. He is pretty nasty in CC, and I think he'll go nicely along with my Vanguard Maniac Brigade. I think lots of plasma and assault cannons will be fun as well.

 

Well, okay, Vulkan comes with a flamer, but at least whether it gets twin-linked or not is in the grey. <3

[rat of vengence]

Gornall said it really well. Vulkan is great, but far from broken.

 

(I was about to make another comprehensive reply here, but then I realized I would just be wasting my time, because the Vulkan haters here didn't really come here to discuss anything in the first place, so any argument is lost on them. Ah well, more fool me for trying to talk sense to scrubs.)

You tried to talk sense, and failed. I am glad you recognise that. Perhaps people would be more inclined to bother trying to decipher your posts if you didn't insult all those who dare to disagree with your opinions. :huh:

 

RoV

[Bannus]

TO ALL CONCERNED: LET:S KEEP THIS CIVIL AND ON TOPIC> EVERYONE IS ENTITLED TO AN OPINION -- OTHERS MAY DISAGREE.

 

 

I suggest very strongly that you leave it at that. :P

[silversmith82]

Ok honestly this is getting silly. Vulkan is NOT broken compared to the other special characters, not by a long shot. Ok so maybe he should cost a little more I agree there. However, even if he was Calgar expensive people would still take him and is 60 pts really THAT much? Yeah in lower points games ok but in lower point games Vulkan does not make near as much of a difference.

 

Like seriously people yell and scream about Vulkan all the time and it baffles me as how they can say he is "omg cheesy" or "winbutton" when you have lists with outflanking infiltrators (Khan/Shrike), and entire Stubborn army with elites counting as troops (Kantor), and freaking Rambo Lysander and co. tearing a gigantic hole in a flank without so much as breaking a sweat. Tell me how a Vulkan army will do against a gunline Lysander army heavy with plasma? Or a super ridiculous fast Khan/Shrike list? Heck, drop podding Sternguard all over the place counting as troops and rapid firing death at AP3 as soon as they get out AND being stubborn?

 

Preamble: THIS IS NOT DIRECTED AT ANYONE ON HERE BUT... Really, people need to just play the game. IMO ALL the special characters are broken and cost far too few points compared to their generic counterparts. Calgar equipped as he is with 5 attacks, god of war and titanic might for ONLY 250 pts? Seriously? Lysander makes your entire army stubborn has 4 wounds 2+/3++ and twin links all bolters in his unit for 200 pts? Sign me up! You can infiltrate 10 hammernators with shrike who is way more capable than a similarly equipped captain for the same points? What? Khan makes your dedicated transports outflank and has instant death AND furious charge AND can take a bike? Put that man with a biked command squad and just demolish... Vulkan twin links meltas and flamers. Oh my lord no... Yeah it is great, so is everything else. I didn't even mention Sicarius or Cassuis who basically gives you no reason to use the generic chaplain entry EVER. They really should not even have bothered including it. Even with my aversion to "counts as" I can't justify not using Cassius as Lo Chang. Even Tigurius who people say is overpriced is nowhere near. He is overpriced compared to the OTHER special characters but 3 powers in 1 turn? Properly used that is really REALLY lethal. Again, you can argue that all special characters are cheese as they do way WAY more for their points than they should. Every last one of them.

 

I really wish we could go back to the 4th ed codex or I can find a gaming group that uses it but its not happening. We need to just man (or woman) up and play with the rules given to us. Nobody is forcing anyone to play 40k and certainly noone is forcing players to play Marines. You might have a really annoying GW store staffer trying to push them on you or tell you how stupid you are for not buying the newest, shiniest thing but I doubt they'll complain when you drop $200 on Tau or whatever floats your boat. Yeah you'll have to play AGAINST the "cheese Vulkan" armies but as I've mentioned numerous times before he is in no way un-beatable by ANY army and the fact that so many marine players think that this is actually the case gives their opponents a huge tactical advantage.