Vulkan Hestan

[Reinholt]

My thoughts:

 

Vulcan is very good.

 

He's arguably the most points-efficient of all the marine special characters (or, at least, the most points efficient given the overall impact on the army, as the most efficient might be Cassius), and more so, he has strong synergy with the typical choices that most players take (and already had before the latest codex, in some cases).

 

I think this accounts for why you see him so often.

 

Is he game-breaking? No; there are other more egregious special characters (Eldrad, if we are talking points for value) or units (Nob Bikerz, Dual Lash Princes). But he is good. He's definitely in the top tier of competitive choices for marines.

 

With that said, I think there are some other beastly marine characters as well. Khan in a list tailored to him is egregiously powerful against anyone other than dual lash, from what I've seen. Lysander is terrifying. Shrike is also strong in a list tailored to him.

 

But, in those cases, you have to build the list around the character much more than you do around Vulcan. So Vulcan is both incrementally better than some of them, but also much easier to build around and use.

[silversmith82]

Agreed, I've seen a full on Khan White Scars bike army and golly. Units flying all over the place, armor detonating left and right, EXTREMELY hard to do anything because of all the turbo boosting and T5 with armor saves. Yeah dual lash would have an easier time but that's basically it and even then there are no guaranteess if he takes a biker libby (and he should as the only weakness of this army really is the dual lash). I'd say a bike list built around Khan is the most potent list possible to field with marines but that's just me. Again, all Vulkan does is twin link meltas/flamers and master crafts thunderhammers. Against a really shooty army this is really not so great compared to alot of other abilities out there.

[pattison]

OK I've started to think about a list, picked units that seemed to be fun to me, but I've never cared about HQs really.

THEN I realized that my fun list is actually almost a Vulkan cheese list just without Vulkan!!

What should I do? HELP! :lol: I'm a beginner, but I've already purchased these models, and I really like them.

I don't want to be hated by other players though, as I did not have any games yet and there aren't so many players here in Hungary...

So if I put him in my list it looks like this:

 

HQ (305p):

vulkan - 190p

chaplain w/ jump pack - 115p

 

ELITES(490p):

5 sternguard, 5 CFlam, srg w/PF - 175p

transport - razorback w/ TLLC - 75p

5 sternguard, 5 CMelt, srg w/PF - 175p

transport - razorback w/ TLHF - 65p

 

FAST ATTACK (320p):

10 jump pack assault, 2 w/ FLAM, srg w/ PF - 235p

1 land speeder w/ HF&MM&HB - 80p

 

TROOPS (390p):

10 tactical, 1 w/ FLAM, 1 w/ ML, srg w/ PF - 195p

1 rhino - 35p

10 tactical, 1 w/ FLAM, 1 w/ ML, srg w/ PF - 195p

1 rhino - 35p

 

Has been around 1300 pts when I started to look for a suitable HQ.

If I add Vulkan and a HB on the LS like this than it is exactly 1500 points.

 

And believe it or not I have a LRC with MM besides this (I bought it without any knowledge whatsoever just for its coolness), plus I was thinking about a CC termie squad with hammers. This is actually frightening!

And all of this is just for fluffy reasons, I mean that I am building a byzantine themed army and according to historicans they had some mercenary norse warrior elites with huge cc weapons...

This is really strange. ;)

[gecko-artist]

After reading through this list.... I feel.... well, bad.

 

I used to play Necrons, and though they are great fun (I don't usually play in tourney's - just my gaming/social club) I wanted something that I could show off my painting skills.... and EVERYBODY (in my group at least) has at least one SM army. So, I looked around on the SM Chapter paint schemes and I'm a fan of Green/Black (just check out my gecko-artist.DeviantArt.com blog if you don't know why) so the obvious choice was Salamanders besides during my BattleTech days (yes... I am THAT old) my general was named Cinder.

 

Now, I bought a C:SM, I read through and found all the stuff interesting and started planning what I wanted to buy.... first out of the gate was Vulkan. He's the Salli general, so it made sense. I was gifted an old MkI Rhino that I converted to be the Hammer of Nocturne.... again it made sense. Now I find that if I bring him to the table I'll be labeled as Ghuda.... I'm not a fan of Ghuda, though a nice provolone with lean turkey is good.

 

Why is it, truly, that people are crying cheese.... he IS undercosted and apparently really good for the army - I get that (now). But Ultramarine players are taking him instead of Calgar? I would think that this is the problem, or at least a big part of it. If you play Salamanders then you should field Vulkan.... at least sometimes. He is their general. If you don't play as Salamanders you really shouldn't be playing Vulkan. I know.... I know, you are allowed to use any SC and gain the benefits... yadda yadda. I think that is truly the root of the cheese.

[pattison]

Umm, so what way are you feeling bad about the list?

[Iron_Chaos_Brute]

Guys, it's OK. Play the way you want to play and the way you enjoy playing-that's what really counts. Don't let anyone (from either side of the eternal power vs. casual gamer debate) try to tell you that how you have fun with your plastic toy soldiers is wrong.

[gecko-artist]

Umm, so what way are you feeling bad about the list?

 

Just because I now find that there are so many out there that groan when they see Vulkan on the table or feel that someone playing Vulkan on a melta/flamer heavy build is just playing the power game to win.

 

I'm all about three things with 40k:

 

Painting the army. This is my favorite part and I plan to ultimately enter some models in the Golden Bolter competition.

 

The fluff behind the army. I like my army to be as fluffy as possible.

 

And a good battle that has both sides laughing and enjoying themselves as they command the army that they spent valuable time on putting together, painting and building.

 

I don't want to play against someone that will not enjoy the battle or label me as cheese just because I chose a Salamanders army (based on color scheme) and choose to play ... well - "fluffy". So my army build is heavy in flamers and meltas. I traded a vintage metal dread with auto-cannon for the basic plastic dread that came in AoBR because it's the only one that comes with a MM......

 

I suppose I could play with a Master of the Forge leading them.... anybody have a current Master of the Forge model they are looking to get rid of :) ?

 

LOL - just kidding!

[Giga]

And a good battle that has both sides laughing and enjoying themselves as they command the army that they spent valuable time on putting together, painting and building.

When you play to win, and when your opponent also plays to win, that's pretty much how every single battle turns out to be - fun, challenging, and tense, and when your little plastic soldiers win, you really feel they've accomplished something. ;)

 

Try it. Once you get into the competitive mentality, you'll be surprised just how much more fun it is (and how much better the game gets) then when you "just play for fun".

[pattison]

I'm all about three things with 40k:

 

Painting the army. This is my favorite part and I plan to ultimately enter some models in the Golden Bolter competition.

 

The fluff behind the army. I like my army to be as fluffy as possible.

 

And a good battle that has both sides laughing and enjoying themselves as they command the army that they spent valuable time on putting together, painting and building.

 

That's just 100% the same here.

I'm OK now, and won't worry about my list. And if it turns out to be strong at the end I won't say sorry. It's made for fun.

[gecko-artist]

And a good battle that has both sides laughing and enjoying themselves as they command the army that they spent valuable time on putting together, painting and building.

When you play to win, and when your opponent also plays to win, that's pretty much how every single battle turns out to be - fun, challenging, and tense, and when your little plastic soldiers win, you really feel they've accomplished something. ;)

 

Try it. Once you get into the competitive mentality, you'll be surprised just how much more fun it is (and how much better the game gets) then when you "just play for fun".

 

 

I'm sorry - I'll have to disagree here. My gaming club has a number of players of various degrees of skill and age. I don't feel good about being the competitive beat stick that laughs while I'm owning their army. It just isn't fun for me. I don't think I've ever - or will ever have a competative bone in me when it comes to 40k (or most other games for that matter).

 

Sorry. It's just not in me.

[Destaro]

I recently had the "special character debate" and ironically, Vulkan never came up. We have 3 players who frequently field Marines (one uses SW so I guess that doesn't matter in this discussion), but none of us have ever fielded him. We've all thought about it, but never felt it was worth the change in tactics. Now, I'm not a tournament player, but I do enjoy playing competitive games. So, will I try him in the future? Most likely. Does it make it cheese if I do? Probably not.

 

I think the major sticking point is the difference between "omg, another Vulkan melta/flamer spam build with a LR and TH Termies" and "hmm, a Vulkan list, how quaint." Personally, I think you're either prepared for lists like this or you aren't. I've been playing CCG's my entire life and something like this comes along everytime something new is released. Either you join the club and try the new "broken" stuff or you find a way to defeat it while still staying viable against other builds. 40K is exactly the same. I've never seen an unbeatable list. You can have as many TL meltas as you want, but that doesn't suddenly make my list awful. What good are TL melta guns if I'm fielding Legion of the Damned and a bunch of Scouts? Or what if my Land Speeder Storms are preventing those Drop Pods from hitting within 12 inches of anything important? How effective are Vulkan and his Termie retinue against Vortex of Doom and Null Zone? Man, doesn't it suck when Vulkan gets smashed by an Ironclad? There are a number of ways to deal with any list, but sometimes you have to find it :)

 

If people are sick of playing against these "cookie cutter" lists, you have a few options. First, ask your opponent's if they have something different. Explain that you've played 3 other Vulkan lists this week and would really like to try your list out against something else. Second, plan for it and nothing else. If they are everywhere, make sure your list can completely outmaneuver it (metaphorically, not literally as they're are probably other more effective strategies). Third, play it yourself and see if you always win. If a Codex:SM army without Vulkan beats you, then he can't possibly be cheese. Then you can go back to your normal list comfortable in the knowledge that you won't roll every SM army you face and that Vulkan isn't the end all, be all. If you never lose, then he is cheese and that brings us to your following option. Don't play against it. Either stop playing 40k, or refuse to play against that special character. Write to GW and explain how you and everyone you know are bailing on the game because of this special character. Lastly, remember that it is a game. It's supposed to be competitive but fun. If you aren't having fun, maybe you should be doing something else...

 

Honestly, I don't see the debate. Special characters are available and many of them are very, very good. Some may even be unbalanced. To say that any of them are straight out unfair is a bit of an overstatement.

 

I would actually like to propose something. How about I play a "standard" Vulkan list and a "normal" SM list against the same opponent (and list) on the same map to see how each fares? You guys can even select the mission and point values. Would that help everyone gain some perspective?

[Grey Mage]

Vulkans Cool and all... but I simply prefer Pedro Kantor in his fluff, model, rules, and points.

 

So I really dont see any advantage to taking him.

[pattison]

Well yeah, Pedro is the other HQ choice I flirt with.

Most probably I'll paint him for my Fists (related anyway) and a counts-as Vulkan for my Iron Knights.

[harrybo]

I've had some great success using Vulkan with my Ultramarines. For a relativley new player to get to the final of their local gamers tournament, and almost win can be attributed partly to the forgefather. In the group stages I used Cassius but only won two games out of eight, plus loads of draws and loses. Then in the knockouts we had 2500 points and I added Vulkan in to boost weapons us Space Marines use regularly (thunder hammers, flamers, multi-meltas) and he has some really good stats. I used to use Sicarius, and while good, is just not as good as Vulkan. Ten points less, better inv. save, heavy flamer instead of plasma pistol, where as Sicarius does keep the armies chaper tactics to fall back which can be very usefull, and army wide ld. 10. I personnaly would be happy to pay 200 for Vulkan and 190 for Sicarius.I know I haven't meantioned all the benefits of both but I just find Vulkan is more survivable. Calgar is way too expensive, as is Tigurius. I love Cassius though, especially his cost and T6!

 

So I would have to say Vulkan is maybe a little undercosted (ten points?) but apart from that is far from broken and suits the HQ role very well in a Space Marine list.

[sal of manders]

At my LGS another player and myself have run vulcan lists in several games. Mine's heavy on the fast attack; his is a drop pod list. Between my own games and some I've seen him play, I've concluded that Vulcan is indeed a beast. Most of my games using him have been against nids and marines of whatever type, and I've found that all those melta's, flamers, and hammers still need to get to the enemy. So if you want to be able to deal with him, bring on the plasma, the autocannons... whatever you normally take to deal with AV 11 or 12 and terminators.

 

and yes... Vulcan is undercosted, but not as much as I suspect some people would argue. Sure, with a tailored list, vulcan is ridiculous, especially against a list that's not prepared to deal with what he brings to the table (that being lots of short ranged, but high powered firepower). The same can be said for other special characters. The same can be said of some lists that don't use a special character. I realize such statements make some people disregard me as a fanboy, and maybe I am. That doesn't make the point any less valid. Having said all that, I'd up his cost by about 25pts. If you think that's overcosted, then you're not playing to his tactics, IMHO.