Valkyrion Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 In terms of fluff, how many grey knights would be needed to banish Anggrath, for example? I've read the DH black library books and one squad seems to be able to do pretty much everything - one man in some cases. Would a single squad of 5 GK's be able to take down a daemon lord? I'm working on a bit of fluff where a powerful daemon is released in an apo battle, but want to limit it to an almost surprise event so the Ordo Malleus can't send a huge force. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185290-how-many-grey-knights-to-banish-a-daemon-lord/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougemeister Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 If memory servers me right it took around 100 GKT to banish Angron, but he's a Primarch Daemon Prince. He's no ordinary bugger. And wasn't anggrath beat down by a single inquisitor lord in the siege of vrak's campaign? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185290-how-many-grey-knights-to-banish-a-daemon-lord/#findComment-2190780 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaled100 Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 I'd say, 'it depends' - there are so many factors involved that a precise answer is impossible. In fact a better answer might be, 'as many as are needed for the story to work'. If the story needs a lone hero to triumph over the daemon lord, then it just takes one. If the story needs a hundred, then the answer is one hundred. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185290-how-many-grey-knights-to-banish-a-daemon-lord/#findComment-2190794 Share on other sites More sharing options...
silversmith82 Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 Stern and a single squad of GKT have done it at least once. Not sure how many it took him to banish M'Kachen the other 2 times. It really depends on how entrenched they are, how many followers they have, circumstances, whatever. In a straight up battle a Grand Master is easily a match for a Demon Prince/Greater Daemon by himself in game terms. In fluff terms we have Alaric as a main character who seems impossible to kill for whatever reason. SPOILER ALERT: Alaric did it by himself or with a small group numerous times. Ghargutuloth and the Castigator he defeated alone after his squad/squads got him into contact with them. In the 3rd book he killed who knows how many greater daemons, defeated that Tzeentch greater demon in a mind war (cannot remember the name for the life of me), beat the snot out of Venalitor (Khorne Lord) and set a whole demon world against itself. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185290-how-many-grey-knights-to-banish-a-daemon-lord/#findComment-2190880 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnus Thane Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 Varies. Depends on the power of the Daemon and the power of the GK/GK's. The big baddie Ghargutuloth was killed by one GM while the other GK's sacrificed themselves keeping the Daemon horde at bay. The story in which he returns, he is in fact weakened. (as far as I know haven't gotten further) There are Daemon Lords/Princes out there with powers that make them almost Gods themselves. Ghargutuloth is one of those (at least when he's in the Warp). Others are far weaker. But on average I'd say that a Grand Master has a good chance of taking down a powerful Daemon Lord. The most powerful ones will need luck usually or heropoints. ;) But as stated, numbers, circumstances etc vary depending on story needs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185290-how-many-grey-knights-to-banish-a-daemon-lord/#findComment-2191106 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justicar Valius Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 a daemon lord such as Anggrath? In fluff a Grandmaster and some grey knight terminators can do it. Problem is the massive horde that comes with them, ALWAYS. However grey knights you need to hold the horde (maybe 95 terminators?) then a Grandmaster and 4 terminators to kill the lord. The best thing is you can even do this in a game with the right upgrades! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185290-how-many-grey-knights-to-banish-a-daemon-lord/#findComment-2191263 Share on other sites More sharing options...
silversmith82 Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 Also remember there are plenty of non-GK SM who are more than up to the task of 1 on 1 vs a Demon Lord if they can get there. Calgar or Lysander definitely could. If you count an Avatar as a Demon Lord (basically is) then Lysander already pounded one of them into the ground by himself. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185290-how-many-grey-knights-to-banish-a-daemon-lord/#findComment-2191690 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingDeath Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 Also remember there are plenty of non-GK SM who are more than up to the task of 1 on 1 vs a Demon Lord if they can get there. Calgar or Lysander definitely could. If you count an Avatar as a Demon Lord (basically is) then Lysander already pounded one of them into the ground by himself. Hrm, the Eldar Avatar and a Daemonlord are worlds appart i would say. Even in fluff it usualy involves knowing the daemon's true name to have a real chance fighting it. Which means for example, Angrath vs. Calgar -> the smurf, for all his superhuman close combat prowess, ends as lunch. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185290-how-many-grey-knights-to-banish-a-daemon-lord/#findComment-2191976 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devon M Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 When Gargaroth was originially bannished (not by Alaric but 1000 years earlier) it took thee grandmasters and another 300 GK including termies to do it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185290-how-many-grey-knights-to-banish-a-daemon-lord/#findComment-2192077 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justicar Valius Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 Agreed Calgar or Lysander would indeed get eaten by the daemon lord (Not that it's necessary, one grot that can hit a marine head from 20 yards will do) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185290-how-many-grey-knights-to-banish-a-daemon-lord/#findComment-2192099 Share on other sites More sharing options...
wizard12 Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 When Gargaroth was originially bannished (not by Alaric but 1000 years earlier) it took thee grandmasters and another 300 GK including termies to do it. yeah but Gargaroth had about 10 daemon lords watching his back so... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185290-how-many-grey-knights-to-banish-a-daemon-lord/#findComment-2192117 Share on other sites More sharing options...
- 7eAL - Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 Also remember there are plenty of non-GK SM who are more than up to the task of 1 on 1 vs a Demon Lord if they can get there. Calgar or Lysander definitely could. If you count an Avatar as a Demon Lord (basically is) then Lysander already pounded one of them into the ground by himself. Hrm, the Eldar Avatar and a Daemonlord are worlds appart i would say. Even in fluff it usualy involves knowing the daemon's true name to have a real chance fighting it. Which means for example, Angrath vs. Calgar -> the smurf, for all his superhuman close combat prowess, ends as lunch. Indeed an Avatar is not equivalent to a Daemonlord. A Daemonlord usually stands head and shoulders above the power and stature of a Daemon Prince. An Avatar might be equal to a Daemon Prince or Greater Daemon - it depends on the individual case. A daemon's power depends mostly on how old and experienced the daemon is and how much favor is given by the Chaos god supports it, while on the other side, an Avatar's strength is probably determined by how many Eldar have gathered to worship at its "birth" as well as how much power the sacrificial prince could channel into the material realm to support the Avatar with before being ripped apart by the summoning. A great many Daemonlords probably are at least Forgeworld sized or bigger. Daemon ships, for example - not the ordinary Chaos or possessed kind - typically sit in the Daemonlord category. It uses other smaller daemons as ammunition. It'd probably take a small fleet to handle that kind of thing, and even more than that to destroy it before it slips back into the Warp of its own volition. 300 Grey Knights would have a hell of a time with something that big, even if it wasn't traveling through the void of space. The most important thing about Daemonlords, however, is that most of them can probably bend the laws of time and space in ways that Daemon Princes can only dream about. It's one thing for Calgar to beat a Daemon Prince who is confined to the same kind of material body as everything else, but a Daemonlord on the material realm probably has enough power to see through time or read thoughts through the warp or simply summon hordes out of its innards like the flesh eating insects in The Mummy. I don't know what anybody could do about that without using its true name to stop it from using most tricks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185290-how-many-grey-knights-to-banish-a-daemon-lord/#findComment-2192496 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 I don't know what anybody could do about that without using its true name to stop it from using most tricks. Psychic warding helps a lot. Mind you, if the description in Grey Knights is correct, then using a Daemon's True Name means you can just leisurely go and poke it to death with a bayonet. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185290-how-many-grey-knights-to-banish-a-daemon-lord/#findComment-2193977 Share on other sites More sharing options...
- 7eAL - Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 I don't know what anybody could do about that without using its true name to stop it from using most tricks. Psychic warding helps a lot. Mind you, if the description in Grey Knights is correct, then using a Daemon's True Name means you can just leisurely go and poke it to death with a bayonet. I imagine that it only works for so long, entirely dependent on the daemon's ability to twist words. A command such as "don't attack" doesn't necessarily stop a daemon from falling over and flailing in a way that just so happens to cause a wound, or kicking a rock that will happen to start an avalanche, or belching a flammable gas after a particularly delightful meal as a "heated" insult. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185290-how-many-grey-knights-to-banish-a-daemon-lord/#findComment-2194383 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaplainmeliadus Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 I don't know what anybody could do about that without using its true name to stop it from using most tricks. Psychic warding helps a lot. Mind you, if the description in Grey Knights is correct, then using a Daemon's True Name means you can just leisurely go and poke it to death with a bayonet. I imagine that it only works for so long, entirely dependent on the daemon's ability to twist words. I believe that was a combination of True name and having only just been summoned seconds ago, meaning it was still vulnerable from transition. Or something. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185290-how-many-grey-knights-to-banish-a-daemon-lord/#findComment-2197395 Share on other sites More sharing options...
- 7eAL - Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 I don't know what anybody could do about that without using its true name to stop it from using most tricks. Psychic warding helps a lot. Mind you, if the description in Grey Knights is correct, then using a Daemon's True Name means you can just leisurely go and poke it to death with a bayonet. I imagine that it only works for so long, entirely dependent on the daemon's ability to twist words. I believe that was a combination of True name and having only just been summoned seconds ago, meaning it was still vulnerable from transition. Or something. Daemonic instability? Good point. I forget such a thing exists, since it isn't represented in game anymore. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185290-how-many-grey-knights-to-banish-a-daemon-lord/#findComment-2197422 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingDeath Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 Knowing the true name helps but it shouldnt be overestimated. The daemon is still extremly dangerous and easily able to squash most opponents as shown in Siege of Vraks III. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185290-how-many-grey-knights-to-banish-a-daemon-lord/#findComment-2197714 Share on other sites More sharing options...
silversmith82 Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 Agreed, IIRC in the Chaos Daemons codex or the WHF Armybook (which is not 40k obviously but still same universe IMO), I read specifically that some daemons are so powerful that even if someone knows their true name it doesn't even matter. But these are the daemons that are second only to the gods themselves in power. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185290-how-many-grey-knights-to-banish-a-daemon-lord/#findComment-2197829 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor =D= Posted November 28, 2009 Share Posted November 28, 2009 As stated earlier it all depends on your story. Personally I would see about 7-10 Grey Knight Terminators being able to banish that particular bugger. Failing the terminators I would say... 25-35 Power Armored Grey Knights. Thats how many I would see being there to make certain the bugger gets gone. If its just the one bugger that is... His horde on the other hand. ;) =]D[= Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185290-how-many-grey-knights-to-banish-a-daemon-lord/#findComment-2198290 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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