sexiest_hero Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 I got a great trade, 43 AoBR space marines for 20 orks 5 nobs and 1 warboss. Bringing my collection of "Renegade" Sm to 80 or so. I instantly made a list to see if i could fit them all in 1 cheap lord pw 1 multi-melta dread 5 man unit of termies 2 meltas 3 man termi unit 2 meltas 4 20 man CSM units 2 meltas each I know we've talked about a 20 man squad but how about 4. That many bolter and close combat attacks, and melta shots, and poor staying power has to count for something. How about being able to outnumber horde armies? thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chillin Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 20 man squads too big and very easy to counter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drudge Dreadnought Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 As attractive as it can be to just cram in as many bodies as possible, the strength of CSM is very much in upgrades, and the efficiency of those upgrades. The terminators ALL need combi weapons. The squads need fist champions, in this case also with combi weapons. The lord needs something better than a powerweapon. Its a waste of his statline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronWinds Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 Lord + PW..... or Sorcerer w/ Doombolt. 5pts more you get a force weapon and an anti-meq psychic uzi. Thats a lot for 5pts. Lord w/ PW is really not worth it. Why not.... Sorcerer+doombolt 5 terminators 4 meltas+heavy flamer 3 terminator 3 meltas 10 CSM 2 meltas 10 CSM 2 meltas 10 CSM 2 flamers 10 CSM 2 flamers 10 CSM 2 plasma 10 CSM 2 plasma 10 havoks whatever you want 10 havoks whatever you want And if you are going for numbers... why terminators? Why not chosen or havoks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sexiest_hero Posted November 21, 2009 Author Share Posted November 21, 2009 I actually like that list alot Ironwinds I do use havoks and chosen. but I wanted to try out a dread. I might just become a chaos daemons demonprince or something... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corpse. Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 My 80 marine list went something like this the majority of my games for 2k. Sorcerer, Slaanesh+Lash Initiative 6 Force weapon, or lasher, either way he had a boduguard of 20 whatever unit I put him in. I make him sit near the rear when a powerfist was nearby. Took a Emperor's champion to drag him out of the unit most of the time to be powerfisted, and then if I planned ahead I could force weapon slay him. 2 units of 20 marines with icon of tzeentch. Very survivable, at 20 models the icon paid for itself. (50 pts = 3.33 marines, it saved more then 4 marines per 20) Also made them worthwhile to throw against terminators with powerfists point for point. I'm serious. Powerfist champ and meltaguns were their weapons of choice. 20 raptors with icon of nurgle. Powerfist, 2 meltaguns. Its like 22.5 points per 'bike' that had lash first turn charges. The unit loved being charged and spitting 40 attacks back at the enemy. I would sometimes line up the unit where only a few would get into base contact if I felt I wanted to tie up an enemy unit for their shooting phase. Ensuring the pile in move put enough models in contact to eliminate their target enemy during the enemy turn. The final unit was more of a reaction take then a wise choice. Mind War/etc style armies would constantly remove my powefists and charge me with big stuff. So I was forced to take 20 possessed. Icon of khorne. They naturally felt like having 4 icons in a single squad (5++, +1 attack, Random roll bonus, Fearless, +1 strength). So I didn't feel gimped with them. Being able to harm wraithlords that always got the charge because of baiting units in front of them. Dawn of War+ Annihilation I hardly ever lost. Other variations of the list included 30 terminators and lots of cheap squads of men. Others included all the powerfist champs I could muster. Then I deviated with 30 chosen outflanking, and other variations. But the list above for 2k was my most consistent one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 Took a Emperor's champion to drag him out of the unit most of the time to be powerfisted, and then if I planned ahead I could force weapon slay him. but you do know that this is illegal to do. you cant pull HQs out of units. Very survivable, at 20 models the icon paid for itself. (50 pts = 3.33 marines, it saved more then 4 marines per 20) Also made them worthwhile to throw against terminators with powerfists point for point but slower . twice as fewer specials weapons , twice as few fists . Yeah they are good against fist terminators [less against TH ones , as those will either avoid them or are 5-6 man+IC and a 20 man squad will get broken by them] , only in 5th ed the only army that could consider using non assault terminators is BT and even they dont do it , becaues AC are no longer worth taking. 20 raptors with icon of nurgle. Powerfist, 2 meltaguns. Its like 22.5 points per 'bike' that had lash first turn charges. 20 raptors with IoN 2 meltas a fist champ is close to 500 pts . + winged sorc another 150 pts. and this unit stops to work as soon as lash failes[and it moves to lash position , before it know if it will or will not work]. how many points do you play normally 5000 pts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corpse. Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 "Drag him out" I meant the emperors champions special rule of challenge dragging him out from the rear of the unit. Worthwhile to throw against powerfist terminators, math. (neither side charging, since that normally dictates who starts winning) 20m is 38a/19h/9.5w/1.58 failed saves (unit costs 410) + 2 PF attacks +.55 failed inv. (80 points gained) 10t is 18a/9h/7.5w/5 failed inv saves (costs 400, no guns) + 2 PW attacks +.33 failed inv. (80 points gained) Marines would strike first and remove a fist or two before they struck at them, but I felt this was required to add the extra "oh I see" factor to it. Now if you charged with either side, add +50% of the original result as 2 attacks become 3 (+50%). Marines are superior against certain things like smaller troops of course, termies better against bigger things. The raptors job is to make the huge line of models that cant be fired past because of being in melee. Think about how annoying it is to have 2" coherency, 1" base size, and only five of 20 models in melee contact, then add the 6" pile in afterwards as long as its planned for you got at least 4-5 models making a wall that cannot be shot past when they are in melee. One "free free free" turn of not being shot at if done right for the entire army. Add in INV saves, tough bike-like raptors (I have the sorc inside the possessed unit to attract fire when possible), and it gets nasty quick. Its in 2000 points. I never play above 3500 unless apoc or planetstrike. You right on fewer guns and fists. But to consider each powerfist model in single costs you 55 points, thats 15+15+25 for a single fist where as you pay 40 pts per terminator, it feels redundant more then a "what if a dreadnought/character charged me" appeal. The need to remove 15+ models before forcing saves on the single 55 point powerfist becomes of more singular value when he's harder to get rid of. The meltaguns are there for skimmers, melee with 14+ krak grenades (depending how many you get within 2" when charging a tank) the powerfist is almost redundant in such a squad. Especially being large enough to charge three tanks in one small area of 12"x12" section or smaller. Swarm armies work slightly differently. Also ensures when someone shoots down 9 marines, they don't have a powerfist to shoot down that the person could have taken almost 4 more marines instead of a powerfist champ. Included the cost in the 20 points per squad meltaguns. Two more squads adds (without marine costs) 60 points total in upgrades, thats 4 marines. Four marines that could benefit from an INV save icon you don't have to buy more of. That's how I justified it anyway. The list had consistant lash problems, and various others. Either they ran when they were 10+ models and regrouped, or they got below 10 models and didn't run (most of the time) and got focused on because the opponent wanted to remove the special models inside the unit asap. Though when the guard codex arrived and psyker battle squads came common, that's when I stopped playing horde as you pointed out jeske a while ago in a previous thread. Which makes sure the variant of using many, many squads a superior selection to the many large squad choice. I deviated to a cult list with berzerkers, plague marines, and noise marines pumping near 500 points a unit to keep trying but I fell victim to over-specialization of lacking bolters for the zerks, and no raptor lash combination to resort to twin lash princes and fewer numbers aside from the other lists I tried. Ultimately the list theme fell apart after each modification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Worthwhile to throw against powerfist terminators, math.Marines are superior against certain things like smaller troops of course, termies better against bigger things. cool . but its like saying they own up units of vanguard or possessed too . Both are not a viable choice , so the chance to actually use the unit against fist termis/vnaguard/possessed is rather slim [DW and that is more or less it] . meting something that is bad , with a unit that costs half or 1/3 of whole force [and is non scoring , still dies to blast etc] is not a good thing to do. But to consider each powerfist model in single costs you 55 points, thats 15+15+25 for a single fist where as you pay 40 pts per terminator, it feels redundant more then a "what if a dreadnought/character charged me" appeal first its 35pts. second am not getting this. there is no way of using terminators instead of asp champions in csm and terminator only units are not ment for hth , at least not the chaos ones.the " what if a dreadnought/character charged me" could maybe be ingored , if the unit didnt cost half the points for the whole army. It is not like plasma csm squads without asp champions and fist [because there are offten 2 other squads in front of them] , this is one big unit that is going to eat every plasma , every counter unit your opponent has and if lash wont work it will eat those for one turn more. The list had consistant lash problems, and various others. it works like a shriek build with 10 assault terminators and 2 drop dreads to pop tanks . only the only worry for the sm army is the 50% chance it has to start , while the nurgle raptor build needs to get first turn and lash , both with 50% of working. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corpse. Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 I consider the powerfists conditionary weapons rather then mainstream stomping weapons, where the basic shot and melee attack gets most done because it far out-weighs in numbers compared to the fists. Fists are like meltaguns to me, so that's where I might be confusing you. (Weapons for a job) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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