PhilArmstrong Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 Hi there. Was just thinking we could get some debate going on the use of HQs. I don't mean how you equip them, more what unit you put them in. I usually run a 2,000 point mech list with a captain and command squad in a razorback. They generally do quite well when they get into combat (they are armed with 1 PF, 1 PS, 1 SS and the champion and standard) However today I was running a 1k list against some other vanilla marines. We only drew up lists 5 minutes before we played, but got me stuggling to decide what to do with my HQ. I had the choice of a Librarian or Captain, and in the end decided on Captain with JP in a unit of Assault Marines, who were only included as a retinue. The problem I have is that you cannot include a Captain in a Rhino unless you combat squad the marines, which generally I don't like to do. So (getting to the point...) where do you stick your HQ choices? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 The problem I have is that you cannot include a Captain in a Rhino unless you combat squad the marines, which generally I don't like to do. What codex are you using? Standard Codex Astartes (the vanilla Marine codex) Rhinos have capacity 11 (one more than the size of a full tactical squad) and Razorbacks have capacity 6 (one more than the size of a full combat squad). You can get an IC into a Rhino with a full tactical squad. Perhaps you meant to say "Razorback?" I'll list the HQs I use with some notes as to how I use them and where I put them. In no particular order: Librarian. I have had him footslog with a unit of Terminators, ride with a combat squad in a Razorback/Rhino, and ride in the Land Raider with my Vanguard. He's not epic in CC but fun; his true strength is countering enemy psykers and some of his more fun ranged abilities. I'm looking forward to putting him into TDA and making more use of Vortex. I use Gate of Infinity a LOT when I use my Librarian, moving Tactical Squads around to flank. "Counts as" Calgar. Typically he rides in the Land Raider with my Vanguard, but I have put him with a combat squad in a Razorback. Frankly, that's about all he needs as he's a beast all his own in CC (six power fist attacks brook little aggression) but with the Vanguard he's truly terrifying: who do you hit? His crazy "retinue" or the monster himself? He also comes with a "free" orbital strike that has occasionally been very useful for me. What is really awesome about Calgar is the ability for your entire force to "Choose to pass or fail" any morale check it's called upon to take. Chaplain. I only have a JP Chaplain right now, but I'm painting a "Counts as" Cassius. Rerolling to-hit is awesome on the charge, especially with a vanilla Vanguard. For fun I have used a Captain with a Power Sword and bolter w/ Hellfire rounds (the AoBR guy) and a Captain with two Thunder Hammers. They are no Calgar in CC, but they are WAY cheaper and can be just as effective. The Captain with the Hellfire rounds works out great with a Tactical squad (in a Rhino or a Razorback), but the 2x TH guy really only works out if he's with a melee squad. My best advice to you is to try things with your HQs that you're not sure will work, or even if you're sure they won't work. Give it your best; worst case you will learn a great deal from your experience. =) Best case you might find ideas for new configurations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 The problem I have is that you cannot include a Captain in a Rhino unless you combat squad the marines, which generally I don't like to do. What codex are you using? Standard Codex Astartes (the vanilla Marine codex) Rhinos have capacity 11 (one more than the size of a full tactical squad) and Razorbacks have capacity 6 (one more than the size of a full combat squad). You can get an IC into a Rhino with a full tactical squad. Perhaps you meant to say "Razorback?" Thade... Im asking you man, stay off the Peyote ok? Rhinos are capacity 10. If you want a ride for your Captain PhilArmstrong, then take a veteran squad of some sort *sterngaurd or vangaurd, as you please* and put them in a razorback with your captain- just 5 strong, some of his best warriors to give him a hand bringing the emperors rightcheous fury to the xenos and the heretic. Even a basic razorback will add a bit of extra shooty, and isnt badly priced. You dont have to go overboard with upgrades either... 5 sterngaurd with a powerfist and a HB razorback rolls in at a mere 190pts, a RB+SS captain bringing it up to about 340pts all around. Thats not bad. Librarians tend to do well in footslogging squads, while Master of the Forge would do well to hang out with some devastators or objective campers as a powerful deterant or LR firebase. Chaplains should go with veterans and assault squads unless its a small point game- in wich case they help out footslogging troops like no ones buisness. Or did you want to hear about some amazing SW HQs? Anyone? :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 The problem I have is that you cannot include a Captain in a Rhino unless you combat squad the marines, which generally I don't like to do. What codex are you using? Standard Codex Astartes (the vanilla Marine codex) Rhinos have capacity 11 (one more than the size of a full tactical squad) and Razorbacks have capacity 6 (one more than the size of a full combat squad). You can get an IC into a Rhino with a full tactical squad. Perhaps you meant to say "Razorback?" Thade... Im asking you man, stay off the Peyote ok? Rhinos are capacity 10. Ah, crap. >_< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 Happens to the best of us. Or did you find one of those rare named rhinos that allows you to have 11 men? Because that would be awesome and you should PM me the name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chengar Qordath Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 If you want a ride for your Captain PhilArmstrong, then take a veteran squad of some sort *sterngaurd or vangaurd, as you please* and put them in a razorback with your captain- just 5 strong, some of his best warriors to give him a hand bringing the emperors rightcheous fury to the xenos and the heretic. Command Squads/Honor Guard also work pretty well in that role. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilArmstrong Posted November 21, 2009 Author Share Posted November 21, 2009 If you want a ride for your Captain PhilArmstrong, then take a veteran squad of some sort *sterngaurd or vangaurd, as you please* and put them in a razorback with your captain- just 5 strong, some of his best warriors to give him a hand bringing the emperors rightcheous fury to the xenos and the heretic. Command Squads/Honor Guard also work pretty well in that role. Command Squad is what I usually use, alot of points in a 1000 list though! I went with the assault squad today as although similar points values, less trouble of a single lascannon leaving them foot slogging across the board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silversmith82 Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 When I did my old BA jump packers I ran a Sang High Priest in with a unit of Veteran Assault Marines, 2 meltas and he had TLLC. Basically can do the same thing with a captain, just no furious charge grumble... Anyway it worked gloriously vs just about everything in 4th ed anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 If you are using only 5 men, it's better to have a Command squad than Vanguardand they are more survivable and just customisable for similar points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rat of vengence Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 I find in low points games Elites are too pricey. I had a great deal of success in a local tournament running a Librarian with jump pack and a 6 man assault squad, serg with powerfist. I would have liked a flamer and/or combiflamer too, but not enough points. The librarian is no combat monster, but he and his squad EXCELL at cleaning up whatever is left of a unit after your army has decimated it. They can operate on their own if you choose their target wisely. I use Avenger (S5 AP3 template? Count me in!) and usually machine curse, though I have been toying with might of the ancients. He is a great support unit, and when it comes down to objectives, he does a great suicide run, leaving a weakened target for your other precious scoring units you can't afford to lose. I like it when marine players bring lots of expensive models to a low point game. They just don't have enough bodies to survive the fire, and usually run out of options before I do :wink: Chaplains are cool too, but I like the shooty/choppy/psychic defense abilities of a librarian for 5th ed. RoV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giga Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 I sorta like the entire herohammer thing (I feel it goes well with the entire SM imagery), so I like to have my HQs kitted out to be close combat monsters and getting into the thick of the fray as soon as possible. I'm not a fan of support-role HQs. Hence, my HQs usually drive around in a land raider with extra armor & multimelta, accompanied by th/ss terminators. The HQs I use in this way are beefed up captain, Vulkan and Lysander. Pedro Cantor, on the other hand, normally rides in a rhino, accompanied by 9 sternguard. This way I can take advantage of his aura while keeping him out of the front line. Also, the fact sternies in a rhino have an effective 26" rapid fire range means I can afford to have them sitting still for a turn so pedro can drop his orbital bombardment. My bike captain regularly rides with a big hefty bike squad. They usually come out of reserve. Except Pedro, I like to separate my HQs from their th/ss termie units after they disembark, so that they can solo-assault another enemy unit. Vulkan, Lysander, and beefed up captain are all more then capable of soloing most infantry units. I do the same thing with my bike captain, albeit not as often as he lacks a 2+ save. Pedro I try to avoid putting into close combat to begin with. His crappy saves mean he's can die before he swings his powerfist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brightguy Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 For me it's either: Captain in the Razorback with a Command Squad (General CC Loadout) Chaplain with a Jump Pack with an Assault Squad (PF, 2xFlamer) Librarian with shooty Termies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tangamarine Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 Anyone ever thought of using a Master of the forge n a combat role, with 3 power weapon attacks and two fists, hes almost as good as a captan with relic blade, minus the invunerable save, plus he also has a good spooting profile with his servo harness, and can fix a tank if needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ming Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 Usually have kantor hang with a tac squad, and a libby buddied up with sternguard. Rarely use a chaplain. Sometimes use a captain with relic blade, but for the points, Kantor (or other named characters) are a much bigger force multiplier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KhorneHunter57x Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 Anyone ever thought of using a Master of the forge n a combat role, with 3 power weapon attacks and two fists, hes almost as good as a captan with relic blade, minus the invunerable save, plus he also has a good spooting profile with his servo harness, and can fix a tank if needed. Yes. I love the MotF and he is my favorite SM HQ. Usually I put him in either a ) a Razorback with a Combat Squad (the other half of which is in the bolstered ruin) or b ) a Land Raider/LRR with another MotF and a 5-man Assault Terminator squad. For me, the Master of the Forge is the Space Marine's Swiss Army Knife (and he looks like one too). I think he is a steal of a deal when you buy the Power Weapon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShinyRhino Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 The problem with the MotF is that he's an IC with no Invulnerable save. To get his attacks, he has to base the enemy, who are then free to dedicate attacks solely to him. One power weapon or powerfist can wreck his day. My choice is easy, as I use a biker Captain for scoring bike squads. He just jumps in with either the melta bike squad (PF, 2x meltagun, multimelta attack bike), or the bolter bike squad (poweraxe, heavy bolter attack bike), or one of the resulting combat squads. His I5 with a Relic Blade is pure gold against MEQ. I used to run Cato Sicarius, but ran into problems with him not being able to hitch a ride with anyone in the list I was running. I liked full tacticals in Rhinos at that time, but he didn't fit in the transports. Sticking him off alone was asking for lascannon shots to the face. He'd probably have done well with a Command Squad in a Razor, but I don't have a Command Squad to put him with. I really prefer HQs that are more mobile, which means either a jump pack, bike, or TDA. A TDA captain/master/chappy/libby is a great booster to a Tactical Terminator squad on the deepstrike. A jump pack HQ obviously adds some punch to an assault squad, though they're a little trickier to get into the fight since they attract so much fire while bounding across the board. Our shop uses a composition score, so you lose tourney points for named HQs, or multiple HQs. I need all the points I can get, so I try to stick to one HQ in my list at a time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doploctor Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 The problem I have is that you cannot include a Captain in a Rhino unless you combat squad the marines, which generally I don't like to do. What codex are you using? Standard Codex Astartes (the vanilla Marine codex) Rhinos have capacity 11 (one more than the size of a full tactical squad) and Razorbacks have capacity 6 (one more than the size of a full combat squad). You can get an IC into a Rhino with a full tactical squad. Perhaps you meant to say "Razorback?" Thade... Im asking you man, stay off the Peyote ok? Rhinos are capacity 10. Ah, crap. >_< in 4th edition rule book HQ choices didn't take a spot i'm pretty sure at any rate i like the old ways of high cost no size in other words i take tigarus (my fave) and a Chapter Master with 10, yes 10, honor guard with relic blades and a banner they are 535 give the master artificer amour, relic blade, storm shield, and melta bombs. he works out to 190 with Tigarus at 230 your HQ choice has cost you 955 points of imposing doom if tigarus gets of might of the ancients your getting 50 Weapon skill 5 Strength 6 attacks put them in a land raider for 250 and your set for life 12 men that will rip anything to shreds Tigarus will give you a 5+ invulnerable save and force enemies to re-roll invulnerable saves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kay Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Then, some lucky one forces your 1k points unit of doom out of their lr and the festival of plasma begins. It hurts myself putting a 450p unit in a lr (6termis+lysander) so i cant imagine putting a 1k one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan249 Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Librarian with Vortex of Doom and GoI clad in terminator armor with a storm shield and accompanied by 5 tactical terminators with a CML work well for me as a small, durable, and mobile counter charge force that can also contribute to the army's shooting ability. Not the best, but has good utility with a wide range of capabilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doploctor Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Then, some lucky one forces your 1k points unit of doom out of their lr and the festival of plasma begins. It hurts myself putting a 450p unit in a lr (6termis+lysander) so i cant imagine putting a 1k one... i've done it it works amazingly and if your land raider is gone you have tigarus' gate he can use the 5+ invoulnrable on his squad while inside the landraider Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShinyRhino Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Then, some lucky one forces your 1k points unit of doom out of their lr and the festival of plasma begins. It hurts myself putting a 450p unit in a lr (6termis+lysander) so i cant imagine putting a 1k one... i've done it it works amazingly and if your land raider is gone you have tigarus' gate he can use the 5+ invoulnrable on his squad while inside the landraider I don't understand. There's no point to using a 5+ invulnerable save while inside a Land Raider. Or do you mean using the Force Dome beofre charging out of the Raider into close combat? How many points are your games played at? Anythign less than 2000 and you've barely got enough points to field your required two troops choices. I'd be hesitant to use Gate on a 12-man squad. The footprint of that deepstrike formation is HUGE. Scatter into a building or some trees, and you're rolling a LOT of invulnerable saves to avoid losing models...to trees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doploctor Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 I don't understand. There's no point to using a 5+ invulnerable save while inside a Land Raider. Or do you mean using the Force Dome beofre charging out of the Raider into close combat?How many points are your games played at? Anythign less than 2000 and you've barely got enough points to field your required two troops choices. I'd be hesitant to use Gate on a 12-man squad. The footprint of that deepstrike formation is HUGE. Scatter into a building or some trees, and you're rolling a LOT of invulnerable saves to avoid losing models...to trees. first you use the 5+ invulnerable in case the land raider you know explodes and we play 2500 at least when i use that and we don't use many trees 4 or 5 pieces of terrain is the limit on a 6x4 and i don't trust the gate i was just saying you could. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 How odd... we try to do GW standard around here- 1/4 of the board covered in terrain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShinyRhino Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 How odd... we try to do GW standard around here- 1/4 of the board covered in terrain. Same here. We actually mark out a line on the board to delimeate the 1/4 board, and fill that area with terrain, then have the people doing setup make rounds around to each tourney board, and then place the terrain across the board. Each board is then gone over by another player who can rearrange a few pieces here and there to make sure the layout is fair for all. We have more than just MEQ players, and a board with no area terrain and only 4-5 pieces of hard cover really screws an Ork, Tau, or IG army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doploctor Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 well this isn't a tourny list sry and we play at a gw and thats the limit they set there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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