Assault Squads and Vanguards

[Lord Doyok]

Hi all,

 

I am currently modelling an Assault Squad Sargeant with THammer (I already have a Sgt with TwinLC). It is done except for the left arm. What should i put in the left arm. Do you guys think Storm Shield is a good buy for an Assault Squad Sargeant? You know, when you are downed to just 6-7 man and was charged by Khârn, it could be usefull. But what do you guys think?

10 man Assault Squad - TH&SS @ 235 pts.

 

Now on the Vanguards. Vanguards to me are just overpriced unit that performs just so-so and die as fast as normal marines. But I have extra jumpacks, and some extra CC weapons. So i wanna build one Vanguard squad just for fun. Though it is for fun, I still wants them to be playable if i decided to use them. So.. What is the better build for 5 man Heroic Intervention unit?

 

5 man - 5 PW @ 235pts (20 PW attacks on the charge)

5 man - 5 Claws @ 235pts (15 PW attacks on the charge, reroll wounding)

5 man - 1 PF, 2 TH&SS @ 275pts (MC/Tank/IC killer)

 

Or some other build you guys have tried and like?

[Race Bannon]

IMHO, If you are going to pony up for a TH then might as well make him last and go for the SS.

 

On Vanguard. Man, I keep looking at the squad and shake my head. GW went another direction building this unit and I think they are given too much press for what they really are. But people who use them swear by them. Having said that:

 

5 LC all the way. Let another squad kill tanks. If HI works then you will shred the target unit and re-rolls are more powerful than attacks. Keep in mind that they still do have T4 and 3+ armor save. Once they kick the crap out of the bad guys then the enemy HAS to react to the new threat. That will save something else in your army. Don't think of the VG as a sacrifice ... but as taking the initiative. SO, if they don't die in the retaliatory turn, then you now have a LC equipped Marine with an 18" reach.

 

Not bad at all.

 

I have not tried this, but I have thought of this before (as an RG fan), so this is what I would do. If I had more money I WOULD build this unit.

[BigFluffyTRex]

I wouldn't give the sergeant the storm shield - if you fail the save, you'll have to remove the 30pt thunderhammer and the 2 A sergeant, so it's not a great gamble, I'd leave him with just a bolt pistol personally.

 

As for the vanguards, depends what you're going to use them to kill. Bear in mind, if they fail to kill the unit in close combat, and it doesn't flee, you'll be safe from shooting until next round. Obviously 5 LC is monstrous over kill verses guard, but brilliant against tactical squads and the like.

 

I'd take a vanguard squad with a thunderhammer, powerfist and 2 storm shields on seperate models so you can remove em without taking off the fists - then fly em in and take out a tank/heavy weapons team, and draw some plasma fire the next turn!

[thade]

Allow me to introduce myself. My name is Thade. And Thade loves his Vanguard.

 

First, I recommend against taking the SS for the sergeant in either the vanilla squad or the vanguard. Models that hold storm shields hold them for only one reason: to soak hits that ignore armor saves, so that the guys with power weapons don't have to die.

 

Secondly, I don't recommend taking twin melee weapons on any model that is not WS5+, as that 15+ points for one extra attack seldom feels worth it otherwise.

 

Finally, I recommend you consider instead of paying for them as an assault squad to pay for them as a Vanguard with that TH as the only upgrade. It doesn't cost much more (several more points per model) and it radically improves the effectiveness of the squad (one additional attack per model and Heroic Intervention). If they've got jump packs it's another story, as vanguard jump packs are 10 per model. Consider dropping the jump packs and put them in a Rhino.

 

As for the vanguard, I usually run mine at 7-9 members strong with the following configuration:

A mix of three to four power weapons (never in pairs) i.e. a TH, PF, Relic Blade, and PWs to fill.

Two to four storm shield-only models

One to two "vanilla" (no upgrades) veterans.

I run them without jump packs and I put them into a Land Raider with one or more CC-oriented HQs. It's a box of pain.

 

If you REALLY want to use Heroic Intervention (I don't recommend it, but there's a 1 in 3 chance it will be amazing, and it is always terrifying to Eldar and IG players if they know it's coming) I recommend this for a configuration:

Two to four with single lighting claws.

Buffer with vanillas (one per guy with single lit claw).

Drop them where they won't scatter off the table but will likely scatter at least semi-close to a unit they can assault. (Remember even if you can somehow get them fleet, they cannot run before H.I.) One thing that helps is when you place them after a deep strike and you encircle them around the first model on the table, you can spiral them such that the spiral ends with a model as near as possible to the unit you're nearest. (This saved me from scatter once. Otherwise, my guys have NEVER landed in a way which benefits them for H.I.)

 

You could do power swords too if your target is particularly squishy (less than MEQ); I'm actually going to try this in a week or so once this new round of guys is painted (which will double as my honor guard).

 

In all cases, after they land, eat something, and consolidate, odds are very high that they are dead in the next turn. This is why I give them Rhinos and Land Raiders to hide in and behind. :P

 

Hope this helps!

 

EDIT: I don't use vanguard as anti-vehicle, primarily because I love their anti-infantry capabilities. But I have thought of maxing them out with power fists and sending them tank hunting.

[Sternguard sergeant McColl]

One of the best ways I can think of to run vanguard without breaking the bank is simply from a rhino. 8 vanguard with a SS, 2xLC, and sarge with pf in a rhino comes out to a modest 265, not much more than a tactical squad. Or if you prefer a shooty squad AM's without packs can be very affordable in a rhino.

[Grey Falcons]

I recently used a 10-man Assault Squad and a 5 man Vanguard Squad in a 2500pt game against some Plague Marines. The AM were deployed on the table and the Vanguard in reserve. I had an Assault Chaplain attached to the Assault Marines.

The Assault squad sergeant only had a power fist and bolt pistol and the squad hefted 2 flamers.

The Vanguard was pretty much 'vanilla', they deep struck in turn 3, next to my chapter master (Kantor rules) and charged a 7-man Raptor squad, dishing out 20 attacks (3 each on the charge, +1 for Kantor's Inspiring Presence), 4 of which were power weapon attacks. Even though it only struck at S4, they still devoured that squad.

I would recommend them. Just use them against an enemy you think they will do good against, I guess.

I kept them as vanilla as possible to reduce costs without sacrificing their packs, but not by much. Pretty much comes down to what you are going to be using them for...

[Sternguard sergeant McColl]

Grey, your Vanguard would have gotten 5 attacks each. @ 2 base+Charge+2xCCW+Kantor. Vanguard can take great advantage of special characters. A combination, while expensive, will make them nigh unstoppable. Kantor adds the attack, Khan makes them outflank & furious charge, shrike makes them infiltrate and fleet, chappies make them re-roll those crazy dice. The Ork mob at I4 If w you will.

[Reinholt]

When I take them:

 

Six men, all jump packs.

 

1 Power Weapon, 1 Power Fist, 1 Storm Shield on the squad, 1 free Power Weapon for the Sergeant.

 

Two guys with no upgrades to be the first two to die.

 

I use them to DS near a locator beacon and slice something up that absolutely has to die; they are best when you need to eliminate expensive enemy units, or to cut the heart out of his army. Greatly benefit from a locator beacon (this makes them worth their weight in gold, as opposed to worthless).

 

Still, not a choice I'd take for competitive games, most likely.

[Giga]

I run my assault squads with powerfist and dual flamers. Comes out at 235 pts. Not bad at all.

 

As for vanguard, I'm thinking they work real well in pedro lists, where they benefit a lot from his +1 attack aura. The good setup IMHO is 10 vanguard, powerfist, powerfist instead of sergeant's powersword, and two stormshields for soaking up wounds.

 

I don't think it's a great idea to give stormshields to PA sergeants. They have 1 wound, after all, and even with the stormshield they still die on 3+. Giving them a powerfist is the best deal, as it allows the squad to threaten MCs and vehicles, and to instant-death ICs, while not paying as much as for a thunder hammer.

[Uncle Jimbo]

I run them without jump packs and I put them into a Land Raider with one or more CC-oriented HQs. It's a box of pain.

 

...

 

EDIT: I don't use vanguard as anti-vehicle, primarily because I love their anti-infantry capabilities. But I have thought of maxing them out with power fists and sending them tank hunting.

 

I am still a fairly new player and this is exactly how I use my Vanguard and I can tell you that the strategy I use is VERY effective vs. my buddy who plays an Ork swarm army. The easiest success I've had since playing him. In my 1.5K army, I take a 10-man Vanguard and throw them in a Land Raider with Pedro Kantor. They stay nice n' toasty warm in the LR and cruise around the field with an 18" reach, popping out with up to 53* attacks on the charge. If a tank needs to be killed, the LC's on the LR usually take care of it and if those don't cut it, Kantor and the sgt. have Power Fists.

 

The extra attack you pay for in their cost makes up for it, even without the expandability of giving them all big power weapons. At least, it has in my experience.

[thade]

I've never tried Kantor, but since he's not CC-oriented I think I'd keep him back with a support fire group (or just leave him in the LR where his aura could "safely" work from), but within range of the Vanguard.

 

I've been considering modeling a Khan and/or throwing a budget Chaplain (Cassius Counts-As probably) in there. I feel like the amount of pain that will could bring is too good for words, but I would miss my Calgar Counts-As. (I'm addicted to all the power fist attacks.)

[Mal]

Vanguard are completly awesome when they work... and gut-renching when they don't.

 

What puts me off is the price of the unit... for 5 vanguard with twin LC you have to cough up 260pts, plus an additional 50pts for each additional marine equipped this way...

 

I have considered taking 5 TLC VG and throwing in a few BP/CCW VG as ablative wounds.

[minigun762]

I think the "best" version of an Assault squad is 10 guys with 2 Flamers and a Power Fist.

With the Flamers and number of attacks, you have a fair chance against any infantry squad, especially big Ork hordes since you will deny them the charge normally and with the Power Fist and Kraks anything that isn't a Land Raider or Monolith has a very good chance of going down.

 

I'd leave the fancy weapons to those Terminators, instead you have a cheap mobile Tactical squads with better assault abilities.

[Grey Falcons]

Sarge McColl - Oops, yeah you are correct. Thanks.

 

I would definitely recommend Vanguard Vets, but view them as a support platform for an advance and not as the main thrust. The 10-man Assault Marines that I run perform this role better - they are 'relatively' cheaper. I also attach Kantor to my Sternguard (not to the Assault or the Vanguard) and in most cases and deploy these close to, but not at the forefront of, my main line of advance. That way both the Vanguard and Assault Marines can potentially benefit from his +1A influence.

 

Its really priceless when those huge 30 Orks mobs (who thought that you were an easy meal) suddenly find themselves being run to the ground...

 

I'd agree also with what Minigun762 said, leave the fancier weapons to the big boys....

 

(Then you get Telion to pop that mob's nob with the powerclaw in the and...err..sorry, that's another whole new thread.....)

[Miscellaneous Marine]

as far as I'm concerned assault squads should be kept cheap, Use then to bog a unit down, I find they are more usefull at tying units up than killing them.

 

Vanguard work incredibly well with scout bikes/drop pods w/ beacons. Get a beacon in place so that the VG's don't scatter. Give them a mix of weapons, but melta bombs are a steal at 5 points. Use them a hit squad you may also want tigerius so you can re-roll the reserves.

 

Deep strike and hit hard, cause chaos and then take advantage.

 

Other things to think about though

Honour guard are 35 points each (roughly) and have artificer armour, bolt gun, bolt pistol and a CCW. In a land raider they are better than vanguard

 

Assault terminators are cheaper but cant assault the term they come down.

 

I love the idea of vanguard but they are hard to get right.

[thade]

Other things to think about though

Honour guard are 35 points each (roughly) and have artificer armour, bolt gun, bolt pistol and a CCW. In a land raider they are better than vanguard

 

Honor Guard cannot take Storm Shields, meaning they cannot hold their own against anything that ignores armor, for instance a Demon Prince. A vanguard CAN take Storm Shields, giving you 2-4 invuln saves, drastically improving your survivability and allowing you to tarpit and even kill something like a Demon Prince. If the Honor Guard is an accessory to an IC (like Calgar) then the DP may split it's attacks, but is still guaranteed to kill several HG a turn (Warptime basically guarantees those wounds) but my Vanguard gets 3+ saves.

 

Assault terminators are cheaper but cant assault the term they come down.

 

I don't feel Vanguard's true strength is Heroic Intervention, as without a beacon it's extremely unreliable...even with a beacon it's unreliable, because you better believe your opponent will stay away from the Vanguard's ability to insta-kill something. Vanguard can perform Sweeping Advances and you can fit more of them into a LR; those are their strengths I feel.

 

I love the idea of vanguard but they are hard to get right.

 

100% agree, but I encourage you to not give up. =)

[Resv]

The Honor Guard being 35 points a model is quite good and shouldn't be ignored. Yes they can't take Storm Shields but I think their lies the problem with Vanguard Vets, the same problem with Command Squads. Pushing for a powerful, super survivable unit with too much kit for ones own good. Pony up all those points for a storm shield and you are missing out on extra bodies that might be with more than shrugging a Lascannon shot. At the point where your going to be spending over 40 points per model I would really suggest taking a long look at your list and see if just taking a group of Terminators would do you better. I know you can't perform sweeping advances however at 320 points you can take 8 of them and have all of the Storm Shields and as many Power Weapon attacks you could ever want.

 

From a fluff perspective if you want Vanguard Vets then bloody well take them! Understand though, that no matter what you do you will always lose a few to stupid results even with Storm Shields. My favorite example was one about 6 months ago in a game against a Raven Guard player. I had one of my units in a set of ruins 3 stories tall on the middle floor. The only way to assault them was to jump into the terrain piece and then assault up a floor. He jumps his very expensive units in forcing them to take a Difficult Terrain test. With 6 dice He rolls three 1's! "No Worries" he says to me "That is why I take storm shields on a couple of them to handle stuff like this!" Then fails the two SS roles losing his rather pricey defensive. Ablative wounds have a merit all their own and with abundance of cover I worry less about getting hit by a Lascannon and worry more about Powerfists and the like.

 

To be honest "cost effective" is really in the eye of the beholder. Out side of this I think Vanguard have one really big strength, and that is not many people play with a unit of them so they remain largely unknown.

[captain sox]

Here are my thoughts and experiences.

 

With assault marines I abandoned the 2 flamer rule. I found in close combat the flamers were a drag. The bolt pistol and chainsword are highly underrated in close combat.

 

My Vanguard is set up with 10 plasma pistols, 9 Chainswords, a powerfist on the Sergeant and jump packs on all. Expensive, yes, but can be deadly to most 'elite' adversaries. Wipe most of them out with the plasma, then finish them off in CC!