Competative Sisters Allied with Vulkan

[Autarch-Andrew]

So heres the deal an army that Includes vulkan or a vulkan stand in get twin-linked flamers,and meltguns basically vulkan is the only chapter tactic that stretchs to allied armies but weapons like the incinerator don't cont so How competative do you think an sisters army with vulkan in it is

[Lungboy]

So heres the deal an army that Includes vulkan or a vulkan stand in get twin-linked flamers,and meltguns basically vulkan is the only chapter tactic that stretchs to allied armies but weapons like the incinerator don't cont so How competative do you think an sisters army with vulkan in it is

 

You can't take allied Space Marines in a Sisters army.

[Autarch-Andrew]

ya but you can allie sisters with marines that what i meant to say sorry for the confusion

[Lungboy]

Adding Sisters to a Marine army with Vulkan in is obviously very nice, but it's not broken by any means.

[JamesI]

This one has had some debate over whether the sisters gain the bonus of Vulkan. I don't know if its ever been solved to everyone's satisfaction.

 

By RAW, I think Vulkan's bonus would effect the sisters though I don't think its something the designers intended.

[Autarch-Andrew]

ya its a gap in the rules heres how it works you have a celestain sqaud with a flamer and a heavy flamer you spend a faith point for all rules of 6 to be ap1 now that its twin-linked you get to reroll that

[Hfran Morkai]

This one has had some debate over whether the sisters gain the bonus of Vulkan. I don't know if its ever been solved to everyone's satisfaction.

 

By RAW, I think Vulkan's bonus would effect the sisters though I don't think its something the designers intended.

 

Yeah, perhaps a gift for Vulkans' favourite women?

 

I agree that it is likely it was unintended.

 

Imagine if it said all template weapons... twin linked inferno cannon on a titan anyone?

[Lungboy]

ya its a gap in the rules heres how it works you have a celestain sqaud with a flamer and a heavy flamer you spend a faith point for all rules of 6 to be ap1 now that its twin-linked you get to reroll that

 

 

That's going to be an expensive, one-trick-pony unit that's still only T3. For the same price (roughly) as a decent sized squad you could get an Ironclad with two heavy flamers that will be much more of a headache than a few AP1 flamer hits.

[Vash]

Building an army based on Vulkan in general imo is boring. His chapter tactic benefits the army the higher the points you play and the more heat weapons you use.

A twin-linked weapon usually adds in avarage 10 pts, so take 10 times the amount of heat weapons... that alot of points earned for a kick arse character to begin with.

 

Giving sisters of battle this ability I dont think will improve them much more than others. Sure divine guidance gives rending, but with the new rules I find my opponents using the "allocate wounds" like arses. Stacking up the rending wounds on a few models.

 

Anyhow, I dont think that Vulkan is suppose to be used with other codexes. But... RAW is RAW, and it all comes down on how you play at your local gaming community.

[the jeske]

Anyhow, I dont think that Vulkan is suppose to be used with other codexes

it is not a question of other codex . it is a question of chapter tactics. if he does not give the buff to stuff without it , then drop dreads make no sense . as drop dreads do get twin linked melta/flamers , everything else that is a flamer or melta , that can be legally taken in a loyalist sm army gets the buff too.

[number6]

Building an army based on Vulkan in general imo is boring.

"Boring" ... maybe. But if you're going to give up Combat Tactics -- which, IMHO, is just about the very best and most useful army special rule in existence -- then you need to get something equally useful and potent in return. Vulkan is the only Marine special character that makes giving up Combat Tactics worthwhile. None of the others cut the mustard.

[Autarch-Andrew]

Building an army based on Vulkan in general imo is boring.

"Boring" ... maybe. But if you're going to give up Combat Tactics -- which, IMHO, is just about the very best and most useful army special rule in existence -- then you need to get something equally useful and potent in return. Vulkan is the only Marine special character that makes giving up Combat Tactics worthwhile. None of the others cut the mustard.

i DISAGREE WITH VULKAN IS THE ONLY GOOD COMBAT TACTIC REPLACEMENT I THINK STUBBORN FROM LYSANDER AND KANTOR IS GOOD KORSARRO KHANS THING IS GOOD AND SHRIKES IS ALSO USEFULL.

[Eltnot]

i DISAGREE WITH VULKAN IS THE ONLY GOOD COMBAT TACTIC REPLACEMENT I THINK STUBBORN FROM LYSANDER AND KANTOR IS GOOD KORSARRO KHANS THING IS GOOD AND SHRIKES IS ALSO USEFULL.

I think you need to stop typing in caps.

 

I think you should probably look at a different option because whilst it is a bit ambiguous, all it take is your opponent to ask "Where in the rules does it say that allied forces are part of the same Army?" Which is the requirement of the rule to take effect. Since it doesn't clearly list this, you won't be able to use Vulkan's abilities. You'll also score crap for Army composition and probably sportsmanship for trying to be a rules lawyer in a tournament.

 

Is it really worth it?

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

This same thread about Vulkan and SoB has gone on enough seriously. How many times can this topic come up on several forums?

Look some of you and me all have different opinion's, so the point is if you think its in the wording and fine then use him. If you dont, well i just think thats ok too. But just make sure your reasons for not letting your opponent use Vulkan tied in with SoB is because you dont wan to see them use twin linked weapons or your a rules lawyer in that unless its black and white, written in clear large words then its not legal.

GW codex's and rules are full of holes, i dont think the guys/girls who write them are that dumb to not realise what there doing.

They are allowing the players to make there own judgements and have fun. Its like can i use Lysander in my Dark Angels army well yes i can, is it fluff yes, is it fair well maybe not.

Also to point out no as been said you cant use SM in a allied force with SoB well jut remember in Apoc rules you can.

Also last thing is tht "Army" is your whole force, allies included not just SM army, and SoB army or IG army all fighting together. Yes IMHO yes Vukans tactics work with SoB. i use them and i point this out everytime some other player wants to bring it up.

 

Hey if you get crap over it just dont play that person.

[the jeske]

GW codex's and rules are full of holes, i dont think the guys/girls who write them are that dumb to not realise what there doing.

remember when they said that they "didnt think people would use 2 lash prince"?

[Bartali]

....They are allowing the players to make there own judgements and have fun. Its like can i use Lysander in my Dark Angels army well yes i can, is it fluff yes, is it fair well maybe not.....

 

Err, no you can't. Unless you're using C:SM instead of the DA codex of course

[number6]

Seems to me that some feathers are getting a little ruffled here. Remember to keep things nice and civil. Don't make me use my melta. :P

[Autarch-Andrew]

Seems to me that some feathers are getting a little ruffled here. Remember to keep things nice and civil. Don't make me use my melta. :)

lol

 

hey guys an off topic question say korsarro khans chapter tatics rule states that all dedicated transports gain outflank could that not bee usefull for sisters or even GK.Hey I beleve that chapter tatic rules streatch over to other allied codexs if they state all(melta,flamers,heavy flamers etc gain twin-linked or all dedicated transports gain outflank.insteed of all space marines gain stubborn like kantor or lysander there rules have the word space marines insteed of just all.get what im trying to say :)

 

also please don't get angry and flustered with each other this is purely and educational post on my part

[the jeske]

hey guys an off topic question say korsarro khans chapter tatics rule states that all dedicated transports gain outflank could that not bee usefull for sisters or even GK

cant do that , khan and vulkan chapter tactics are worded in a different way . to get ouflanking transports the unit that has the transport has to change the combat tactic for chapter tactic. sob cant do that , neither can GK.

there is nothing to get angry about , as what you state just doesnt work.

 

The crucial part about the whole thing the whole sob twinlinked melta/flamers is how vulkan is worded . no where in hist rules does it state that to get the twin linked melt/flamers and MC TH , you have to exchange the combat tactics for chapter tactics. It says you take vulkan you lose chapter tactics on all units that have it[coma]. All TH/Flamer/Melta get buffed [ what was ment for dreads , MM on LR , melta guns on ironclads etc and just because GW doesnt test their dex with inq units , it also happens to work for all other melta/flamers etc. ] and that is it.

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

My remark about Lysander in a Dark Angel army was only an example, i know that as i play Dark Angels as well.

So if you like i can change Dark Angels for say Blood Angels if you like.

Back on track, if you think the wording works for you and you can justify its printed words on his abiliities then just remember that we are just here to give advice and you can take it on board or ignore it if you choose.

 

The game is about fun, GW has said as much and that there rules are more guidelinges aswell, so if you want to take Vulkan then enjoy painting him up, he's a fantastic miniature, and enjoy using him when you allie your SoB to your SM army.

I use him in Apoc games and stilll get people argue the point, and i just tell them well find in the rules that it states "Army" doesnt include allies.

[Eltnot]

My remark about Lysander in a Dark Angel army was only an example, i know that as i play Dark Angels as well.

So if you like i can change Dark Angels for say Blood Angels if you like.

Can't do it with Blood Angels either...

 

I use him in Apoc games and stilll get people argue the point, and i just tell them well find in the rules that it states "Army" doesnt include allies.

Find for me in the codex where it states that I don't get to shove Vulkan up my opponent's left nostril... :D

 

Seriously though, relying on something not being stated is like saying that I get to use special marines that have 10 for all of their stats, just because it doesn't say I can't in the rulebook/codex.

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

Actually you can as it was stated in either a White Dwarf mag or the codex itself saying that if you wanted to field Lysander in your army other than say Imperial Fists then just change the colour and rename him, GW has allowed this so anyone can use there Special Characters and not just from there original armies. I cant be stuffed finding it right now but i know it has been said.

 

Do we seriously need GW to write up a 100 page rule errata saying everything in black and white what you can and cant do? If thats the case how boring this game will become, i already get sick of the "rules lawyers" as it is who want to argue out every move, ruling and dice roll just to either make there army win or you to lose.

 

It clearly states that Vulkan is in your army you lose Chapter Tactics (you can choose which one your using if more than one) and that all TH become master crafted, and well you know the rest, but the main part says "in your army". Under the main rulebook "Building an army" it states that you can play every miniature you have even from other races so dont you think we are just re-arguing this over and over??

If he/she wants to use Vulkan so what its his Army, if you dont like it fine your allowed to not like it.

If some one wants to play Vulkcan against me should i say no sorry you cant use your mixed Sm force and benefit from his rules, not likely i'd allow it.

We all have our own opinions and taking on GW rulings and ofcourse there vague rules so let it rest for once and for all.

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

On another note i play a army of Faith, that is with a main contingent of "Daughters of Light" SoB army in the excess of 10k points i also use a small contingent of Oder of Our Martyrd Lady and am planning on adding Order of the Bloody Rose, would this mean i have to use them as allies or are they still part of my Army??

 

It is documented that many SM Chapters take to the battle together and so do the SoB so if i include other Order Militants into my army do i lose benefits and have to consider them allies. If i played SM and chose to link 3 Chapters in one army would that mean that the other two Chapter armies lose out of special rules too?

 

Army is your total army, not just your SM army or parent army but allies aswell. Just look today for examples of that.

Common sense really i thought :D

[the jeske]

I cant be stuffed finding it right now but i know it has been said.

yes . If your using codex sm and it is counts as you can do some with all other dex. You can take and build an army of all terminators with the SW dex , use DA models/conversions and call it DW. You cant take a special and use it[without your opponent saying it is ok, but you know this when your opponent is saying ok you could be using everything including non GW stuff].

If some one wants to play Vulkcan against me should i say no sorry you cant use your mixed Sm force and benefit from his rules, not likely i'd allow it.

A. taking sob allias to a sm force is fully legal due to rules in codex WH. B. vulkan is worded differentlly then all the other chapters modifing characters. All the others have , if you traded you get this rule etc . Vulkan is not worded like that , he says you lose combat tactics and all TH/Flamers/melta guns get this buff. This means if your a TH/Flamer/melta gun and happen to be in an army with vulkan , you get the buff. Yes the chapter tactic was worded like this not to give sob allias a buff , it was writen like that to let dreandoughts and MM on tanks get it . But that doesnt change the fact that the buff works . Rules have nothing to do with fluff.

[Bartali]

The game is about fun GW has said as much and that there rules are more guidelinges aswell, so if you want to take Vulkan then enjoy painting him up, he's a fantastic miniature, and enjoy using him when you allie your SoB to your SM army.

I use him in Apoc games and stilll get people argue the point, and i just tell them well find in the rules that it states "Army" doesnt include allies.

 

The game is indeed about fun. However it's meant to be fun for both players. GW's rules are supposed to create a balanced enviroment (emphasis on supposed ^_^) which makes the game fun for everyone.

 

If you want to use (for example) a unit of Fire Dragons allied to a SM force with Vulkan, and your opponent agrees, knock yourself out. Don't expect your opponent to enjoy it though if the combinataion proves a tad broken.