Competative Sisters Allied with Vulkan

[rat of vengence]

I find it interesting how many people are willing to apply 'Chapter Tactics' to forces that are not part of the chapter, even if allied to it. I think that is clear enough in itself.

 

Actually you can as it was stated in either a White Dwarf mag or the codex itself saying that if you wanted to field Lysander in your army other than say Imperial Fists then just change the colour and rename him, GW has allowed this so anyone can use there Special Characters and not just from there original armies. I cant be stuffed finding it right now but i know it has been said.

For Codex:SM chapters, yes. For ANY chapter with it's own codex, no, that is not correct.

 

 

RoV

[templargdt]

I used two squads of sisters with flamers in my Ard Boyz Vulkan SM parent list and they worked very well, re-rolling failed wounds to get more sixes (works especially well on Plauge Marines.) The key to it is that yes, RAW in the SM codex, your SOB flamers are TL.

 

That said, after some thought I wouldn't do that outside Ard Boyz. It's clearly outside the intended rules. The TL of the weapons is supposed to be indicative of the Salamanders excellent craftsmanship of weapons. Yes you could say 'well, they built the sisters guns' but come on. In a normal tournament with soft scores you would probably get significant points off from your opponent. One guy in my local area who I respect a lot and runs a fair amount of tournaments flat out told me at a non-Ard Boyz he simply wouldn't allow it.

 

I think the Stubborn replacement of combat tactics is pretty good, everything else is meh. I would say outflanking if you didn't have the ability as Space Marines to do Drop Pod assault, but.

[Eltnot]

The key to it is that yes, RAW in the SM codex, your SOB flamers are TL.

So you managed to find where it states that allies are part of "his army"? The rule only effects units in "his army" and until you can find a definition of that showing it to include units from other codicies then what you did was cheating.

[tahrikmili]

So you managed to find where it states that allies are part of "his army"? The rule only effects units in "his army" and until you can find a definition of that showing it to include units from other codicies then what you did was cheating.

 

Allies are a part of the army composition aren't they? Do they not take FOC slots? Isn't this a semmantic assault on windmills?

[Autarch-Andrew]

Im really glad my topic is making people think

[rat of vengence]

So you managed to find where it states that allies are part of "his army"? The rule only effects units in "his army" and until you can find a definition of that showing it to include units from other codicies then what you did was cheating.

 

Allies are a part of the army composition aren't they? Do they not take FOC slots? Isn't this a semmantic assault on windmills?

So you are happy to use a special rule called Chapter Tactics on units that are nothing to do with the chapter?

 

RoV

[Ntin]

Forgefather Vulkan tries in vain to teach his fellow battle brothers to fry heretics more effectively to save his failing promethium franchise. A Canoness happens to walk by for the lecture and writes a few notes on her sleeve, then returns to her order. It becomes next summer’s smash hit buddy comedy “Vulkan and Valarie” starring Tom Hanks and Helen Hunt.

 

Or Shadow Captain Shrike meets a spunky Sister of Battle Seraphim from the wrong side of the tracks. Together with the power of dance and love they can teach both of their orders the power of fleet can overcome all obstacles. In “Love Birds” with Morena Baccarin and Emilio Estevez.

[rat of vengence]

Lol. I see Sigorney Weaver as being a cool canoness. She has been around a while, and knows how to kick alien butt :(

 

RoV

[the jeske]

So you are happy to use a special rule called Chapter Tactics on units that are nothing to do with the chapter?

But you do understand , that if sob dont get the MM buff , then dreads who dont have combat tactics or ironclads or MM on tanks[like a LR] dont get it too ? and the wording the way it is in the sm dex , was done in a such a way to give those units twin linked melta/flamers and if those units without combat tactics to trade for chapter tactics , get the buff the alliad sob which take the same foc [so not a separate army] have to get the buff too ?

[rat of vengence]

So you are happy to use a special rule called Chapter Tactics on units that are nothing to do with the chapter?

But you do understand , that if sob dont get the MM buff , then dreads who dont have combat tactics or ironclads or MM on tanks[like a LR] dont get it too ? and the wording the way it is in the sm dex , was done in a such a way to give those units twin linked melta/flamers and if those units without combat tactics to trade for chapter tactics , get the buff the alliad sob which take the same foc [so not a separate army] have to get the buff too ?

No, this is not correct. What I am saying has nothing to do with combat tactics, and I didn't mention them in this context at all. The dreads and tanks are all part of the Chapter, and hence will benefit from the Chapter Tactics. SoB are not part of the Chapter and therefore don't benefit from Chapter Tactics. The wording was done so that units such as the ones you mentioned DO get Chapter Tactics, even though they have not Combat Tactics. It does not automatically follow that ANY unit can get the benefit of Chapter Tactics. I tend to think it is bleeding obvious that Chapter Tactics is for that Chapter. Not any hangers on as well.

 

RoV

[Lungboy]

You're using fluff to justify rules interpretations, otherwise if you took Vulkan in any army other than Salamanders his rule wouldn't work.

[rat of vengence]

You're using fluff to justify rules interpretations, otherwise if you took Vulkan in any army other than Salamanders his rule wouldn't work.

No, this in incorrect. I am using the Chapter Tactics rule to apply to the space marine chapter he is in. The Chapter Tactics special rule doesn't specify which chapter at all. It does specify 'chapter' however. No interpretation is needed whatsoever. Just read the rule. It is called Chapter Tactics. Please don't write off inconvenient rules as 'fluff'. :)

 

RoV

[Lungboy]

It does specify 'chapter' however. No interpretation is needed whatsoever. Just read the rule. It is called Chapter Tactics. Please don't write off inconvenient rules as 'fluff'. :)

 

Nowhere in any of the Chapter Tactics rules does it specify that it only affects a particular Chapter.

 

edit: the name of a special rule, or item of wargear, or anything else, is fluff. If your name = rule assertion was correct, then a Heavy Flamer would be a heavy weapon, and an Assault Cannon would be an assault weapon, both of which the rules tell us is not the case. Furthermore, for your assertion to be correct, there would need to be a rule somewhere that tells us exactly what a Chapter is, in in-game terms, but no such rule exists.

[rat of vengence]

It does specify 'chapter' however. No interpretation is needed whatsoever. Just read the rule. It is called Chapter Tactics. Please don't write off inconvenient rules as 'fluff'. :)

 

Nowhere in any of the Chapter Tactics rules does it specify that it only affects a particular Chapter.

Um, where did I say it did? Whatever you are counting Vulkan as, he belongs to some chapter, yes?

 

edit: the name of a special rule, or item of wargear, or anything else, is fluff. If your name = rule assertion was correct, then a Heavy Flamer would be a heavy weapon, and an Assault Cannon would be an assault weapon, both of which the rules tell us is not the case. Furthermore, for your assertion to be correct, there would need to be a rule somewhere that tells us exactly what a Chapter is, in in-game terms, but no such rule exists.

No. Heavy Flamer isn't the title of a special rule. Chapter Tactics is. Could you point out in which book and on what page it tells us which part of the special rules we can ignore because it is 'fluff'? Now, I am aware that there is no 'rule' asserting what a chapter is, but are you seriously suggesting that ANY Spcae Marine player needs that spelt out in little words?

 

Come on, fellas. GW gave us credit for having a bit of common sense, and didn't write the obvious. A special rule called Chapter Tactics OBVIOUSLY applies to Chapters. What has Chapters? Books! Wait! I mean, Space Marines!

See, even I can figure out that one...

 

RoV

[SamaNagol]

'obviously applies to.....' = RAI

 

RAI = about as valid as me wanting to use Movie Marines on the tabletop.

 

Rules As Written is the law laid done from above. If they had the foresight to actually playtest their Codices properly then they wouldn't have these problems. But that would cost extra money.

[rat of vengence]

'obviously applies to.....' = RAI

 

RAI = about as valid as me wanting to use Movie Marines on the tabletop.

 

Rules As Written is the law laid done from above. If they had the foresight to actually playtest their Codices properly then they wouldn't have these problems. But that would cost extra money.

So you are happy with 'whole army' being interpreted to mean any model on the same side, yet you have a problem with Chapter Tactics refering to tactics for a space marine chapter? Really? :yes:

 

RoV

[SamaNagol]

Chapter Tactics is the name of a rule which is further specified to affect 'the whole army'

 

It's not rocket science.

[rat of vengence]

I wouldn't have thought so. So do you choose to disregard the name of the rule? Do you interpret 'whole army' to be literal but Chapter Tactics to not be?

 

RoV

[heretic??ME??]

Its cheesy simple as that. I would never use this far to beardy!!! Chapter Tactics should only apply to the marines, the sisters have their own equipment. Even if they are providing SPECIAL services in between battles.

 

Now if I had to it would be a long term serving force of sisters attached to the marines, so same bases and theme to the rest of the army.

[SamaNagol]

I wouldn't have thought so. So do you choose to disregard the name of the rule? Do you interpret 'whole army' to be literal but Chapter Tactics to not be?

 

RoV

 

The name of the rule is utterly irrelevant. How it operates is the actual description.

[rat of vengence]

I wouldn't have thought so. So do you choose to disregard the name of the rule? Do you interpret 'whole army' to be literal but Chapter Tactics to not be?

 

RoV

 

The name of the rule is utterly irrelevant. How it operates is the actual description.

In many cases the name of the rule is descriptive. How is this a hard concept, unless you find it inconvenient for what you want the rules to be? Why disregard something that, like it or not, is a part of the rules?

 

Its cheesy simple as that. I would never use this far to beardy!!! Chapter Tactics should only apply to the marines, the sisters have their own equipment. Even if they are providing SPECIAL services in between battles.

Good call :P

[jeffersonian000]

From a fluff stand point, a "Vulcan" as a Techmarine on a quest to find relics who also happens to have his own armoury of master-crafted Flamers, Heavy Flamers, Meltaguns, Multi-Meltas, and Thunder Hammers which he equips his expeditionary force with. As such, "Vulcan" is more like a Rogue Trader than a Space Marine commander, and his "army" is literally any unit legally able to be fielded with him.

 

From a rules-as-written stand point, "Vulcan" allows any unit in his "army" with a Flamer, Heavy Flamer, Meltagun, Multi-Melta, or Thunder Hammer to count those weapons as being master-crafted, yet any unit with the Combat Tactics rule may not use Combat Tactics.

 

This is one of the few times where fluff and rules match. Per the BRB, pg viii under "Building an Army", all units fielded by the same player are considered to be apart of the same army for gaming purposes. Units taken for game play must follow the Force Organization Chart theme or with opponent's permission. Pretty simple, and does cover allied units such as Sisters of Battle allied into a Marine force with a Vulcan He'stan special character since all of the units are considered one army and allied Witch Hunter units take up FOC slots from the parent list.

 

In the case of a doubles tournament where two players field a single force, each of their forces are considered separate armies which means that Vulcan's special rule only effects his army and not his ally's army.

 

SJ

[rat of vengence]

Nice try, but from a fluff standpoint, the twin-linking reflects the artificer weapons Salamanders are famed for. I have read nothing to suggest he carries an armies worth of spare weapons with him on his quest, even less of him letting non-marines have a lend of them.

 

RoV

[SamaNagol]

It's just a poorly worded rule. And unfortunately it means that all allies in the same FoC get the same treatment. Exactly the same as Shrike.

[jeffersonian000]

Nice try, but from a fluff standpoint, the twin-linking reflects the artificer weapons Salamanders are famed for. I have read nothing to suggest he carries an armies worth of spare weapons with him on his quest, even less of him letting non-marines have a lend of them.

 

RoV

 

And that invalidates anything I've posted how?

 

SJ