Competative Sisters Allied with Vulkan

[rat of vengence]

Nice try, but from a fluff standpoint, the twin-linking reflects the artificer weapons Salamanders are famed for. I have read nothing to suggest he carries an armies worth of spare weapons with him on his quest, even less of him letting non-marines have a lend of them.

 

RoV

 

And that invalidates anything I've posted how?

 

SJ

Well, I am interested to know what fluff you get your idea from. Which GW publication? :mellow:

 

RoV

[Eltnot]

This is one of the few times where fluff and rules match. Per the BRB, pg viii under "Building an Army", all units fielded by the same player are considered to be apart of the same army for gaming purposes. Units taken for game play must follow the Force Organization Chart theme or with opponent's permission. Pretty simple, and does cover allied units such as Sisters of Battle allied into a Marine force with a Vulcan He'stan special character since all of the units are considered one army and allied Witch Hunter units take up FOC slots from the parent list.

That's a nice quote, but read the next paragraph on that page.

From memory it tells quite different story...

 

I'd quote it myself but don't have my rulebook on me at the moment.

[jeffersonian000]

Well, I am interested to know what fluff you get your idea from. Which GW publication? ^_^

 

RoV

 

No specific fluff is required beyond the comparison of the current Vulcan He'Stan special character to an old style 1st edition Rogue Trader. It was an observation, as noted in my original post. No where in the 5th Ed Marine codex does it state that Vulcan's chapter tactics work because he is a Salamander, yet under the "Ultramarines and other Chapters" box on pg 127 of the Marine codex, Vulcan can represent any similar character in 40k. I've simply drawn a comparison between He'Stan and a Rogue Trader as an example on how his special rule can be seen is an armoury full of goodies rather than as a ... well ... armoury full of goodies.

 

 

That's a nice quote, but read the next paragraph on that page.

From memory it tells quite different story...

 

I'd quote it myself but don't have my rulebook on me at the moment.

 

May be you should actually read it?

 

"To play Warhammer 40,000 you will need an army - in other words a collection of Citadels miniatures." It goes to state that you can even play with every model you own, as long as you and your opponent agree as to what can be used and at what point total. Then it goes on to state that units can be found in codexes and that most people tend to settle for a specific codex to select units from for their army. Last I checked, the Witch Hunters codex allows Witch Hunter units to be legally taken with Space Marine units in a single army.

 

My challenge to you is to find a rule or statement anywhere in 40k that disproves this. Its was stated in an earlier post that nowhere in 40k does it define what an army is and I’ve posted where to find that definition in the current 5th edition rule book. How about you?

 

SJ

[JamesI]

It's just a poorly worded rule. And unfortunately it means that all allies in the same FoC get the same treatment. Exactly the same as Shrike.

Shrike is worded differently. Only units with combat tactics get Shrike's bonus, so no fleet dreads or fleet allies. Vulkan is worded different, and by RAW works for sisters/stormtroopers.

[Eltnot]

Page viii of the current 5th Ed rule book, the section titled "Building an Army" defines an army as every model you field from a codex in a game.

 

SJ

Actually I just looked up the old thread.

Have you changed your mind on this issue since then?

Link to the old discussion on the topic.

[rat of vengence]

No specific fluff is required beyond the comparison of the current Vulcan He'Stan special character to an old style 1st edition Rogue Trader. It was an observation, as noted in my original post. No where in the 5th Ed Marine codex does it state that Vulcan's chapter tactics work because he is a Salamander, yet under the "Ultramarines and other Chapters" box on pg 127 of the Marine codex, Vulcan can represent any similar character in 40k. I've simply drawn a comparison between He'Stan and a Rogue Trader as an example on how his special rule can be seen is an armoury full of goodies rather than as a ... well ... armoury full of goodies.

So the fluff you gave was just made up to support your selective reading of the rule then.

 

RoV

[satanaka]

This one has had some debate over whether the sisters gain the bonus of Vulkan. I don't know if its ever been solved to everyone's satisfaction.

 

By RAW, I think Vulkan's bonus would effect the sisters though I don't think its something the designers intended.

 

Solved!

[Eltnot]

This one has had some debate over whether the sisters gain the bonus of Vulkan. I don't know if its ever been solved to everyone's satisfaction.

 

By RAW, I think Vulkan's bonus would effect the sisters though I don't think its something the designers intended.

 

Solved!

You're missing the point.

 

It's whether or not the allied sister's count as being part of Vulkan's Army. The rule applies to all units in "his army", but are the allied sisters in "his army"?

 

Edit: I don't see anywhere in the information you linked to detailing how sisters gain the benefit of Vulkan's abilities. It simply talks about how having two special characters in your army work with combat tactics.

[rat of vengence]

This one has had some debate over whether the sisters gain the bonus of Vulkan. I don't know if its ever been solved to everyone's satisfaction.

 

By RAW, I think Vulkan's bonus would effect the sisters though I don't think its something the designers intended.

 

Solved!

Uh, no. Noone is arguing about SoB and combat tactics. To suggest that that FAQ has ANY bearing on this is a long bow indeed.

 

RoV

[jeffersonian000]

Page viii of the current 5th Ed rule book, the section titled "Building an Army" defines an army as every model you field from a codex in a game.

 

SJ

Actually I just looked up the old thread.

Have you changed your mind on this issue since then?

Link to the old discussion on the topic.

 

I have neither changed my mind nor my answer, which can be easily read in the above link as well as the quote you've posted from that same thread. If you read further down the thread to Toogeloo's post, you'll note that he corrected my paraphrasing to include more than one codex. The WH codex allows WH units to be available to a Space Marine army list for selection when building an army. All of the units selected for that army by following the rules and/or player agreement are members of that army. As such, Sister of Battle units selected for a Space Marine army list which includes Vulcan He'Stan are both members of Vulcan's army and will benefit from Vulcan's Chapter Tactics, per the rules as written.

 

 

 

No specific fluff is required beyond the comparison of the current Vulcan He'Stan special character to an old style 1st edition Rogue Trader. It was an observation, as noted in my original post. No where in the 5th Ed Marine codex does it state that Vulcan's chapter tactics work because he is a Salamander, yet under the "Ultramarines and other Chapters" box on pg 127 of the Marine codex, Vulcan can represent any similar character in 40k. I've simply drawn a comparison between He'Stan and a Rogue Trader as an example on how his special rule can be seen is an armoury full of goodies rather than as a ... well ... armoury full of goodies.

So the fluff you gave was just made up to support your selective reading of the rule then.

 

RoV

 

Try reading for content, it will help. I neither created fluff nor quoted fluff as rules.

 

SJ

[rat of vengence]

Try reading for content, it will help. I neither created fluff nor quoted fluff as rules.

SJ

Okay, where did this come from if you didn't just make it up then? I already challenged you to answer this, and as yet you haven't. If you didn't make it up, give me a reference.

 

From a fluff stand point, a "Vulcan" as a Techmarine on a quest to find relics who also happens to have his own armoury of master-crafted Flamers, Heavy Flamers, Meltaguns, Multi-Meltas, and Thunder Hammers which he equips his expeditionary force with. As such, "Vulcan" is more like a Rogue Trader than a Space Marine commander, and his "army" is literally any unit legally able to be fielded with him.

 

Well?

 

RoV

[satanaka]

This one has had some debate over whether the sisters gain the bonus of Vulkan. I don't know if its ever been solved to everyone's satisfaction.

 

By RAW, I think Vulkan's bonus would effect the sisters though I don't think its something the designers intended.

 

Solved!

You're missing the point.

 

It's whether or not the allied sister's count as being part of Vulkan's Army. The rule applies to all units in "his army", but are the allied sisters in "his army"?

 

Edit: I don't see anywhere in the information you linked to detailing how sisters gain the benefit of Vulkan's abilities. It simply talks about how having two special characters in your army work with combat tactics.

 

Actually, I'm not missing anything.

 

If Vulkan is the nominated General for the side, then it is HIS army, even if sisters are in it.

[satanaka]

This one has had some debate over whether the sisters gain the bonus of Vulkan. I don't know if its ever been solved to everyone's satisfaction.

 

By RAW, I think Vulkan's bonus would effect the sisters though I don't think its something the designers intended.

 

Solved!

Uh, no. Noone is arguing about SoB and combat tactics. To suggest that that FAQ has ANY bearing on this is a long bow indeed.

 

RoV

 

Uh, yes.....

 

If you read the many threads on this subject, the most common thing that comes up concerning Sisters in a Vulkan army is the issue of Combat Tactics.

 

Many have claimed that because Sisters do not have Combat Tactics, they thus can not have the benefit of Vulkan's twin link rule because they do not have Combat Tactics to lose in the first place.

 

That FAQ shows that is not the case.

[rat of vengence]

And that is not what is happening here at all, so the point is moot. Other objections have been raised in this thread that have nothing to do with FAQ.

 

RoV

[SamaNagol]

What are you saying exactly? You have a moral objection from a fluff standpoint about Vulkan granting sisters master crafted and twin linked? I would agree with you, but alas it is the rules.

[rat of vengence]

Sigh. Read back, I am tired of repeating myself. It is a rule objection, one several people overlook or call 'fluff' because it is inconvenient.

RoV

[the jeske]

No, this is not correct. What I am saying has nothing to do with combat tactics, and I didn't mention them in this context at all. The dreads and tanks are all part of the Chapter, and hence will benefit from the Chapter Tactics. SoB are not part of the Chapter and therefore don't benefit from Chapter Tactics. The wording was done so that units such as the ones you mentioned DO get Chapter Tactics, even though they have not Combat Tactics. It does not automatically follow that ANY unit can get the benefit of Chapter Tactics. I tend to think it is bleeding obvious that Chapter Tactics is for that Chapter. Not any hangers on as well.

 

RoV

only rules have nothing to do with fluff. the rules doesnt say all sm models gain X or even all units taken from codex sm have theri X.Y.Z buffed. no. it says you get this if your a flamer, melta etc. it is simple.

[rat of vengence]

Chapter Tactics. Sisters of Battle =/= a Chapter.

 

Simple.

 

RoV

[Gentlemanloser]

Vulkan == HQ of a Chapter.

 

I don't understand the objection.

 

You're phrasing it as a rules problem, but throw up fluff counters.

 

By the rules, SoB count as part of your army;

 

BRB 'Building an Army'

 

To play Warhammer 40K you will need an army - in other words a collection of Citedal Miniatures <snip> It is quite possible to play Warhamer 40K with an army that consists of every model you own, even if the warriors are form diferent races

 

BRB 'Picking a force for battle'

 

The army list in each Codex <snip> the army list also provides a structure that helps you create an effective fighting force

 

C:WH 'Witch Hunters Army list'

 

having done this, you can proceed to pick an army as described below

 

C:WH 'By the Authority....'

 

Using a Force Organisation Chart. The army lists are used in conjucntion with a FoC from a senario. Each FoC is split into 5 categories that correspond to the section in the army list <snip> you may make one choice form that seciton of the army list

 

C: WH 'Using WH as Allies' (Box)

 

If you have an existing Warhammer 40K Army, this is the simplist way of incorporating an Inquisitor or a Squad of Sisters of Battle.

 

 

There are probably better examples to quote out there. But the point is the WH allies rules make the WH units part of your army as they;

 

Use your armies FoC, and are a selection from the FoC specified army list

Are GW minis.

 

That aside, Vulkan's rule doesn't require a unit to have Combat Tactics themselves.

 

So there is no 'rule' problem with SoB getting TL Flamers/Meltas.

 

Your comment above aobut 'Chapter Tactics' is a fluff problem *you* have with a fluff justification of how a questing Salamander gives some War Nuns better equipment, as he's rule is supposed to show the better weaponry a specific SM Chapter has.

 

Sorry, but that's a fluff arguement.

 

To which many other fluff arguements can be raised.

 

Firs and formost is that Vulkan doesn't need to be used as Vulkan, he doesn't even need to be used as a Salamander (or even successor) Space Marine. He could quite easily be a Questing Inquisitor, maybe even an Inquisitor taken from a former Space Marine, who is scouring the Universe with an personal guard of SoB. It could be anything else.

 

That's why the SM Codex waves the liberal use of 'Counts As' around.

 

The 40K universe is simply too large to cover all the possibilites we might want to play in the Codexes. So we have leeway to make our own sotries up, as long as the mechanical rules are satified.

 

And they are. SoB, even allied, are part of your FoC, they are part of your Army list, regardless of which Codex you use (you potentially don't even have to use a Codex...). They aren't required to have Combat Tactics as a special rule to be able to emply Vulkans Chapter Tactic rule (And Chapter Tactic here is a name you can change as much as Vulkan is. What you call it is irrelevant, as long as the mechanics are internally consistent).

 

Anything else is a fluff discussion.

[jeffersonian000]

Thank you, Gentlemanloser, for covering my point much more eloquently than I can.

 

SJ

[rat of vengence]

Thank you, Gentlemanloser, for covering my point much more eloquently than I can.

 

SJ

And still totally missing the point. Fluff has little to do with this. Someelse made up their own fluff to excuse this rule, I challenged it. Fluff has no place in my argument. Gentlemanloser's post is well written, but still fails to address the fact that it is Chapter Tactics, and SoB are not a Chapter. It is part of the rule. Changing the name of the rule is not on, because it is part of the rule as written.

 

RoV

 

Edit for speelung

[Grey Mage]

Thank you, Gentlemanloser, for covering my point much more eloquently than I can.

 

SJ

And still totally missing the point. Fluff has little to do with this. Someelse made up their own fluff to excuse this rule, I challenged it. Fluff has no place in my argument. Gentlemanloser's post is well written, but still fails to address the fact that it is Chapter Tactics, and SoB are not a Chapter. It is part of the rule. Changing the name of the rule is not on, because it is part of the rule as written.

 

RoV

 

Edit for speelung

There is nothing in C:SM that states your force being played must be a chapter, or that Chapter Tactics affects only models of the same chapter as the character who has them.

 

As much as I absolutely despise this loophole, it does in fact exist.

 

Edit:

NOTE: You cannot Ally in Vulkan to a Sisters list, as he is a Space Marine and Space Marines may not be inducted into a Witchhunters List that includes Sisters of Battle. This loophole, such as it is, only functions if you ally in Sisters to a "salamanders" force.

 

So heres the deal an army that Includes vulkan or a vulkan stand in get twin-linked flamers,and meltguns basically vulkan is the only chapter tactic that stretchs to allied armies but weapons like the incinerator don't cont so How competative do you think an sisters army with vulkan in it is

Wich means its not very effective, as its illegal.

[Lungboy]

As i posted previously, until you can show a rule that specifies what a "chapter" is in in-game terms, and not in fluff terms, then your assertion is utterly incorrect.

[Grey Mage]

As i posted previously, until you can show a rule that specifies what a "chapter" is in in-game terms, and not in fluff terms, then your assertion is utterly incorrect.

I hope you werent talking to me?

[rat of vengence]

As i posted previously, until you can show a rule that specifies what a "chapter" is in in-game terms, and not in fluff terms, then your assertion is utterly incorrect.

I think it might be in the index under the heading 'Bleedin' Obvious'. :)

 

Meh. If people want to make this an exploit, go ahead. It won't happen across the table in any game I am playing.

 

RoV out.