Grey Mage Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 As i posted previously, until you can show a rule that specifies what a "chapter" is in in-game terms, and not in fluff terms, then your assertion is utterly incorrect. I think it might be in the index under the heading 'Bleedin' Obvious'. :) Meh. If people want to make this an exploit, go ahead. It won't happen across the table in any game I am playing. RoV out. So allow me to make sure I have this strait RoV. Your saying because the title of the rule has "Chapter" in the name, that it can only be applied to a SM chapter? And you dont see any problem with that and are stating its RAW? And so if I looked at Telions "Eye of Vengeance" rule, and in a game stated that since I hadnt yet acted agressively towards my opponent, let alone killed a model he couldnt use it because there was no "Vengeance" to be had, I could be correct? Or am I off the mark here? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185509-competative-sisters-allied-with-vulkan/page/4/#findComment-2200990 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 It's not an exploit as Sisters of Battle units are fragile compared to Marine units, and they take up FOC slots that could be better used on Marines units with more utility and/or better states at a lower price. A Sister's "Acts of Faith" has limited effect as allies to a Marine army since the most faith point a non-Sister army can have through allies is 7 (8 if you take a Litanies of Faith on a Canoness or Palatine). What they bring is the ability to take two meltaguns or 2 flamers in each of four FOC slots as well as a combo of up to 4 meltaguns ot flamers in one FOC slot; not the best deal out there, but legal. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185509-competative-sisters-allied-with-vulkan/page/4/#findComment-2200993 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 It's not an exploit as Sisters of Battle units are fragile compared to Marine units, and they take up FOC slots that could be better used on Marines units with more utility and/or better states at a lower price. A Sister's "Acts of Faith" has limited effect as allies to a Marine army since the most faith point a non-Sister army can have through allies is 7 (8 if you take a Litanies of Faith on a Canoness or Palatine). What they bring is the ability to take two meltaguns or 2 flamers in each of four FOC slots as well as a combo of up to 4 meltaguns ot flamers in one FOC slot; not the best deal out there, but legal. SJ Yes, but the origonal topic was that Vulkan would be added to a SOB army, wich isnt legal. As to the other way around, your right... its limited, and expensive. Its a bit of a glass jaw tactic. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185509-competative-sisters-allied-with-vulkan/page/4/#findComment-2200997 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 Gentlemanloser's post is well written, but still fails to address the fact that it is Chapter Tactics, and SoB are not a Chapter. It is part of the rule. Changing the name of the rule is not on, because it is part of the rule as written. That's a fluff arguement. It would be like claiming Seraphim can't "Hit and Run" as they use Jump Packs and aren't running, or a Callidus Assassin can't use "A Word in your Ear" versus Necrons, as they don't have Ears... The name of the rule isn't part of the rule. It's just it's name. Saga of the Bear doesn't mean the SW with it is actually a Bear. :cuss Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185509-competative-sisters-allied-with-vulkan/page/4/#findComment-2201647 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 Are you sure? Because itd be really cool to throw down a bear and say "Look, FOUR wolf claws". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185509-competative-sisters-allied-with-vulkan/page/4/#findComment-2201780 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 An actual Bear in TDA would be even better. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185509-competative-sisters-allied-with-vulkan/page/4/#findComment-2201922 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eltnot Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 Had a through look through the rules again last night. As it turns out, I was under the impression that Vulkan's rules said "his army" when it really says "your army". Changes a fair bit of things. So I guess technically you can do it by the rules. Still you'll cop a massive hit in Army Composition scores in a tournament. Not really worth it at the end of the day. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185509-competative-sisters-allied-with-vulkan/page/4/#findComment-2202108 Share on other sites More sharing options...
templargdt Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 Agreed. Like I posted earlier, outside of 'Ard Boyz I personally wouldn't do it. In 'Ard Boyz, hey, it's Ard Boyz. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185509-competative-sisters-allied-with-vulkan/page/4/#findComment-2202209 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 Still you'll cop a massive hit in Army Composition scores in a tournament. Why? It's not unusual for SM and SoB to fight together. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185509-competative-sisters-allied-with-vulkan/page/4/#findComment-2202772 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eltnot Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 Why? It's not unusual for SM and SoB to fight together. Fluff has nothing to do with an army composition score (or at least it shouldn't). Taking an optimised Vulkan list is already fairly powerful. Adding sisters into the mix just pushes those boundaries further. In an Australian tournament a list including the two is likely to score a 1, maybe a 2 out of 5 (at least that's what I'd mark it if one showed up at one of the tournaments that I run). You could potentially cop a hit on sportsmanship since whilst I now lean towards the rules saying it is possible, it's still fairly loosely worded to gain the benefit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185509-competative-sisters-allied-with-vulkan/page/4/#findComment-2203137 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 If theres a comp score then sportsmanship shouldnt include the opponents list- thats kinda crazy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185509-competative-sisters-allied-with-vulkan/page/4/#findComment-2203384 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eltnot Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 If theres a comp score then sportsmanship shouldnt include the opponents list- thats kinda crazy. The hit on sports is from trying to use a fairly loosely worded ruling to gain the benefit. I'm not saying you would get hit on sports but as you can see by the debate on here, it is possible that your opponent would class it as a bending of the rules to gain bonuses that in their mind, you shouldn't really have. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185509-competative-sisters-allied-with-vulkan/page/4/#findComment-2203424 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 If theres a comp score then sportsmanship shouldnt include the opponents list- thats kinda crazy. The hit on sports is from trying to use a fairly loosely worded ruling to gain the benefit. I'm not saying you would get hit on sports but as you can see by the debate on here, it is possible that your opponent would class it as a bending of the rules to gain bonuses that in their mind, you shouldn't really have. I suppose its just my philosophy- either its cheating, in wich case the person needs to stop Now or its not, in wich case Ill just have to deal with it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185509-competative-sisters-allied-with-vulkan/page/4/#findComment-2203439 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 Meh, I though Comp scoes should be all about 'fluffy' lists. And not what your oppoent thinks is too powerful a combo. I'm glad I don't go to any tournaments. :) I'd probably mark my opponents sportmanship down, for being a goit and marking my compostion down based on thier dislike of a legit in game rule. I don't like the Skulltaker, Flamers or a DP of Nurgle (far too powerful for thier costs), but I wouldn't mark a Daemon army down if they chose to use them over nurglings... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185509-competative-sisters-allied-with-vulkan/page/4/#findComment-2203927 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eltnot Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 I suppose its just my philosophy- either its cheating, in wich case the person needs to stop Now or its not, in wich case Ill just have to deal with it. I don't disagree with your philosophy, but it's hard to tell if it's legal or not. After all, we've just had a several page debate about its legality. Whilst I now agree that their is more information supporting it then against, I still feel that it's like someone trying to get a benefit that the designers never intended. Meh, I though Comp scoes should be all about 'fluffy' lists. And not what your oppoent thinks is too powerful a combo. I'm glad I don't go to any tournaments. :P I'd probably mark my opponents sportmanship down, for being a goit and marking my compostion down based on thier dislike of a legit in game rule. I don't like the Skulltaker, Flamers or a DP of Nurgle (far too powerful for thier costs), but I wouldn't mark a Daemon army down if they chose to use them over nurglings... So how can you mark someone down for sportsmanship when you don't even understand how the concept relates in a warhammer tournament? If you did, you would understand that army composition is used by tournaments to mark individual armies based on their power. This means that if someone does well throughout their games but has an uber build army list, but happens to get the same amount of wins as say someone used an outdated codex that is significantly weaker, who is the better general? Clearly the person with the weaker list as they have achieved the same results without the benefit of "training wheels". Also wherever possible, army composition is actually marked by a panel of experienced player who are not actually playing in the given tournament. the reason for Army Composition is to prevent tournament from degenerating into playing against the same few armies and lists over and over again. It is only a few tournaments like Ard Boys that don't use army composition and where you face off commonly against lists like this. I feel sorry for you that you think you're glad that you don't go to tournaments. If you did, you'd realise that the majority of people there are just there to have fun. All of my most enjoyable games have been at tournaments against a variety of lists. The thing that made them most memorable was the great player on the other side of the table. Edit: This is based on my experiences of the way tournaments are run here in Australia, both as a player and as a tournament Organiser, which isn't necessarily the same as in other parts of the world. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185509-competative-sisters-allied-with-vulkan/page/4/#findComment-2204582 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 Actually, to be honest, Ive been to over 50 tournaments this last decade, and only two of them ever had a comp score- including ones run by rogue traders. *shrugs* but thats North America for you. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185509-competative-sisters-allied-with-vulkan/page/4/#findComment-2204713 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted December 5, 2009 Share Posted December 5, 2009 Army Composition scores are the most nonsensical thing ever and I am hugely glad and relieved they have been removed from the majority of tournaments. Codexes should be written and balanced correctly, not individual army lists. You don't take an army to lose and everything is fair game if it is in the book. I go to tournaments to test myself against the best builds and the strongest generals, not to see 5 tactical squads in Rhinos face off against 100 Ork Boyz. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185509-competative-sisters-allied-with-vulkan/page/4/#findComment-2205568 Share on other sites More sharing options...
satanaka Posted December 5, 2009 Share Posted December 5, 2009 LOL we have a saying in our store. "Every army 'cheats' in some way, it's just a question of how." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185509-competative-sisters-allied-with-vulkan/page/4/#findComment-2205841 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted December 6, 2009 Share Posted December 6, 2009 List building isnt a cheat- its a skill like any other. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185509-competative-sisters-allied-with-vulkan/page/4/#findComment-2206373 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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