Deamon weapon question

[Cyresh]

I was wondering about deamon weapons and saves, namely: if i roll a 1 on the number off attacks can i take an inv save against the wound ? the codex is a bit unclear, it states that no armor saves are allowed but doesnt mention inv saves...

[Ragnar Lodbrok]

No inv saves are not allowed.

[chillin]

No inv saves are not allowed.

 

Sorces Ragnor ??

C:csm pg. 93 Daemon weopons, "suffers one wound with no armour saves allowed", sz nothing about no invul save allowed nor no saves of any kind allowed. So unless there is something someplace in the dex, you can take invul save vs wound caused by D. weop.

[Ragnar Lodbrok]

I have always been under the assumption there is no save for it. I hope I'm wrong it might actually make me use Daemon Weapons.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Invul saves are allowed. It only says armor.

[Cyresh]

btw one question concerning the deathscreamer, is it both a power weapon that generates d6 attack and a shooting weapon ? the rules can be interpreted either way i think

[Seahawk]

It does both, the same way the Tyrant's Claw is a power fist and heavy flamer.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Yup. You can fire it for its d6 attacks then charge in and get another +d6 attacks.

[Brother Nihm]

Greater chance of it turning on the wielder though, as you roll twice per turn.

Still, I love mine. :lol:

[minigun762]

Greater chance of it turning on the wielder though, as you roll twice per turn.

Still, I love mine. :lol:

 

Better chance to be protected though as well, since you have a 4++ save vs 5++.

[Corpse.]

I always liked all daemon weapons.

 

Force weapon without a psychic test = Slaanesh.

Double the danger, double the fun = Khorne.

All purpose critter killer = Nurgle.

General damage dealer, nice for AV10 rear vehicles = Glory.

Safest and potentally as damaging as khorne = Tzeentch. (Situational to be as damaging)

 

11/36 is the result of the khorne daemon weapon which is roughly 29% IIRC.

Two dice at once for a 1 is worse then one dice rolled twice as much. Not including the better 4++.

[JamesI]

Greater chance of it turning on the wielder though, as you roll twice per turn.

Still, I love mine. :P

I did ok with mine, but started to roll too many ones. I think for Tzeentch the sorceror with warptime is just more useful than the lord with demon weapon (and doombolt or Wind of Chaos can replace the shooty aspect of the demon weapon).

[trolly]

hi,

 

I was wondering about deamon weapons and saves, namely: if i roll a 1 on the number off attacks can i take an inv save against the wound ? the codex is a bit unclear, it states that no armor saves are allowed but doesnt mention inv saves...

 

a bit confuse here.

isn't that supposed to be only one save to take in 40K?

like if i can't take armour save then i can get inv save or cover saves, not choose one of them.

correct me if i am wrong please.

 

cheers,

B)

[bap2703]

You choose one of the save from the pool of those you can claim. Generally the best one.

[Cale]

Two dice at once for a 1 is worse then one dice rolled twice as much.

 

This isn't actually true. If you're looking at the probability of taking at least one wound from the Daemon Weapon, rolling two dice at the same time (as with the Bloodfeeder) produces the same probability as rolling one die on each of two different occasions (as with the Deathscreamer).

 

The Bloodfeeder, obviously, has a greater chance of getting a one (and thus not working) for the roll in combat, which is worse in a way, but the Deathscreamer actually has two chances to wound you, while the Bloodfeeder only has one--so, while the probability of taking at least one wound is the same, the average number of wounds you take from the Deathscreamer on a turn on which you both fire it and use it in combat is higher than the average number of wounds you take from the Bloodfeeder on a turn on which you use it in combat.

 

So, really, the Deathscreamer is more dangerous to its wielder in one way, but, since being denied your attacks in close combat is generally more devastating than being denied shots, the Bloodfeeder is more dangerous to its wielder in that way.

 

As far as what you were saying, though, the probability of an event occurring at least once on two dice is the same whether you roll the dice at the same time or on separate occasions.

[bap2703]

For those interested in the numbers :

- Khorne weapon wounds you 11 times out of 36 (before save) so after save that is 11/54 ~= 20.4%

- Tzeentch weapon wounds you 12 times out of 36 (before save) so after save that is 11/72 ~= 15.3%

 

Conclusion : more wounds with Tzeentch but better inv save => less wounds at the end.

 

But more importantly :

- Khorne weapon doesn't hit enemies at all 11 times out of 36

- Tzeentch weapon doesn't hit enemies at all 1 times out of 36

 

Conclusion : with Tzeentch you have more chances to do something and not just stay in the middle while your sword does what it wants... (Tzeentch is in fact the most "secure" daemon weapon : it has way more chances to at least do something than all the other daemon weapons)

 

 

 

The drawback is that of course all of this is assumes that you can actually fire before the close combat...

[hummus]

F

- Khorne weapon doesn't hit enemies at all 11 times out of 36

- Tzeentch weapon doesn't hit enemies at all 1 times out of 36

shouldnt that ne 6 times out of 36 for tzentch

[bap2703]

To do nothing you need to roll 1 in the shooting phase AND roll 1 in the assault phase.

If you prefer that's the same than rolling 2 with 2D6 => 1 chance over 36.

[Cale]

That's a good write-up, bap. Pretty much got the important parts.

 

Personally, though, I think the Nurgle weapon is the best. I often don't shoot before charging (to avoid risking the target fleeing or removing models to prevent a charge) so I don't care much for the Tzeentch weapon, the Khorne weapon just fails too frequently, and the Nurgle weapon does better damage against virtually every type of target than the unmarked weapon. The Slaanesh weapon is good, too, but more situational.

[JamesI]

That's a good write-up, bap. Pretty much got the important parts.

 

Personally, though, I think the Nurgle weapon is the best. I often don't shoot before charging (to avoid risking the target fleeing or removing models to prevent a charge) so I don't care much for the Tzeentch weapon, the Khorne weapon just fails too frequently, and the Nurgle weapon does better damage against virtually every type of target than the unmarked weapon. The Slaanesh weapon is good, too, but more situational.

I agree. If I wasn't trying to play with just Tzeentch stuff, I'd run a Nurgle Lord with demon weapon. I think Nurgle has the best demon weapon in 5th edition.

[Askari]

Yep you can take invulnerable saves. Tzeentch daemon weapon is a shooting weapon and a power weapon with the d6 attacks but it sucks because you can take 2 wounds per turn and the shots are only S4 Ap3 so they're not amazing, though they are useful. Nurgle is easily the best weapon against anything but vehicles because its poison means that it will wound things better than any weapon. Undivided is competitive because of its cheap cost (don't have to buy a mark) but lightning claws tend to do the same amount of damage and are cheaper and more reliable. Slaanesh's special ability rarely gets used but it is nice to have a IC that can hunt characters, and khorne will either do amazingly well or amazingly bad.

[Brother Nihm]

and the shots are only S4 Ap3 so they're not amazing

2-6 (1 does nothing) 24" ranged power weapon equivalent attacks on a lord with wings/pack - potentially followed up by a larger number of attacks in CC isn't exactly bad. The price may put some off and there are other choices in the list who can do similar things (e.g. Doombolt Sorc Lord) but, he's 1) Unique, 2) efficient at slaughtering MEQs at range as well as in CC, 3) fast, and 4) fun.