Receiving an assault when already in close combat...

[ShinyRhino]

Over the weekend our shop has its monthly 40K tourney, which I'm priud to say I won.

During my second game, a situation arose where I had my Bike Captain locked in combat with a unit of Assault Marines. He was holding his own well, until he was assaulted by an additonal unit of three Terminators. The Captain was based with an Assault Marine to his front, and then based again by one Terminator on his front-left side.

The problem was that my opponent (Ming here on the B&C) stated that my Captain could not "react" to the Terminators, and therefore target them with his I5 Relic Blade attacks, because he was already based by the Assault Marine to his front. This interpretation took me by surprise, since I'd never heard it read that way before.

I know a defending unit cannot use "Defenders React" moves if they're already based in CC, but nothing that says they cannot focus attacks on the new unit.

It was a moot point in our game anyways, as I wiped out the remaining Assault Marines for the killpoint instead, but I did lose my Captain to powerfist attacks.

 

How should this situation be resolved in the future?

[JamesI]

When in combat with more than 1 unit, you can only fight someone you were in base with (or within 2 inches of someone in base if you aren't in base) before blows are swung. As an example, if you have a guy with a fist in base with the assault marines, and they all die before he swings, he couldn't now turn and target the terminators.

 

In your situation, the captain could chose to target either unit, or split his attacks between the 2.

 

Check the BRB FAQ for clarification on this.

[thade]

JamesI is right. You should have been able to swing at the terminators. If your captain is in base contact with a unit, he can put some or all of his attacks at that unit. That's how it works. Nothing in the rules says "If someone joins later, you can't react to them". While creative, that was flat-out wrong. =P Possibly a mix-up from Fantasy rules? I'm not sure how charging in Fantasy rules work precisely; I'm just guessing as to where the idea may have come from.

 

If you need page citations I can dig those up for you later; I don't have the book at the moment.

[Seahawk]

Everyone but everyone always misconstrues the rules on page 41 to say you can't react. Those rules mean something totally different that's been explained before on here. Searchy should help you find those discussions.

 

[edit] here's the explanation of that I did for my club:

 

- When one unit is assaulted by a second unit, it can attack either it is in BTB with. Why? Because the beginning of the combat is NOT the beginning of the assault phase in any way, shape, or form. We all read it wrong, and now I'm trying to get the correct view out there for all of us. The bullet points on page 41 (and the new one in the FAQ) only point out the obvious for us, saying we can attack two units (duh) and each model may split it's attacks between different units if it's in BTB with more than one (neat). The 1st bullet on pg 41 and the third bullet in the FAQ is for the following situation:

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/veritas117/mod/engaged.png

 

Say this is the combat. The green dude, mr X there, is only in BTB with the blue squad. If the blue squad gets wiped out before he can attack for some reason (say the green guy to his right is Abaddon or Ghazkull or some crazy character), he cannot now attack the red squad, even though he's within 2" of the green dude that's BTB with the red squad (which he is). That's what the BRB and FAQ bullets explain. He's too busy with blue squad to turn around this turn.

[Frosty the Pyro]

Seahawk has it right. The rule Mr Ming was refering to was "Models that were engaged with just one enemy units at the begining of combat (before any model attacks) must attack that unit"

 

Mings intepritation is wrong, but not unheard of. many people read "combat" and think "assult phase". This is not true, the assault moves happen before combat within the asault phase. Thus his terminators were engaged before combat. What it amounts to is that any model in BtB with other models at the begining of combat (aka I10) lose the ability to count as engaged for being within 2" of an enganged model. Seahawks example explains it well.

[Agrab]

side point. YOu guys mention splitting up attacks, but I thought that any model must use all of its attacks on one target

(dont have BRB with me so...)

[Bobman]

When in combat with more than 1 unit, you can only fight someone you were in base with (or within 2 inches of someone in base if you aren't in base) before blows are swung. As an example, if you have a guy with a fist in base with the assault marines, and they all die before he swings, he couldn't now turn and target the terminators.

 

In your situation, the captain could chose to target either unit, or split his attacks between the 2.

 

Check the BRB FAQ for clarification on this.

 

I agree the Cap can attack both units.

 

As an aside I'm always trying to find the bit where it says you can split attacks in the book, can you give a page/paragraph please? Is it just IC or can MC split As as well?

 

Thanks

 

Bobman out

[JamesI]

side point. YOu guys mention splitting up attacks, but I thought that any model must use all of its attacks on one target

(dont have BRB with me so...)

In 4th edition, all attacks had to go against one target. In 5th, you can split them if you have multiple attacks and are in base with multiple units. I don't have access to my BRB while I'm working, but if someone else doesn't post a page number before then I can post it tonight.

[Agrab]

side point. YOu guys mention splitting up attacks, but I thought that any model must use all of its attacks on one target

(dont have BRB with me so...)

In 4th edition, all attacks had to go against one target. In 5th, you can split them if you have multiple attacks and are in base with multiple units. I don't have access to my BRB while I'm working, but if someone else doesn't post a page number before then I can post it tonight.

 

for some reason i remember this in a game recently, and I remember reading that Units can split, but models can't

[thade]

Everyone but everyone always misconstrues the rules on page 41 to say you can't react. Those rules mean something totally different that's been explained before on here. Searchy should help you find those discussions.

 

[edit] here's the explanation of that I did for my club:

 

- When one unit is assaulted by a second unit, it can attack either it is in BTB with. Why? Because the beginning of the combat is NOT the beginning of the assault phase in any way, shape, or form. We all read it wrong, and now I'm trying to get the correct view out there for all of us. The bullet points on page 41 (and the new one in the FAQ) only point out the obvious for us, saying we can attack two units (duh) and each model may split it's attacks between different units if it's in BTB with more than one (neat). The 1st bullet on pg 41 and the third bullet in the FAQ is for the following situation:

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/veritas117/mod/engaged.png

 

Say this is the combat. The green dude, mr X there, is only in BTB with the blue squad. If the blue squad gets wiped out before he can attack for some reason (say the green guy to his right is Abaddon or Ghazkull or some crazy character), he cannot now attack the red squad, even though he's within 2" of the green dude that's BTB with the red squad (which he is). That's what the BRB and FAQ bullets explain. He's too busy with blue squad to turn around this turn.

 

It seems I was playing this in error: I thought that if the blue unit was entirely destroyed that Mr. X could in fact attack the other unit since the rules say 'if you were in range at the beginning of the phase, even if you're not when your turn comes up, you still get your attacks.' Where do his attacks go?

 

I suppose this is similar to shooting, where if the first guy to shoot kills the target unit, everyone else doesn't get their shot. In reality, they do get their shot, because they are all shooting simultaneously. (There's just no more need to roll dice.)

 

In the same way, everybody at Init 4 goes simultaneously, so if Mr. X's swings at the blue unit happen when everyone else's swings happen, then he was clearly a part of Blue being destroyed...even if you rolled for him last or something (or don't need to roll since Blue is destroyed first).

 

That makes sense. I'm glad I read this thread. =)

 

Nevertheless, if the new unit charged in and put itself into base contact with the Captain, he's now in BTB with both units and CAN in fact split his attacks. So the OP should've been able to do it. =)

[Seahawk]

As an aside I'm always trying to find the bit where it says you can split attacks in the book, can you give a page/paragraph please? Is it just IC or can MC split As as well?

pg 41, conveniently: "Models that were engaged with more than one enemy unit at the beginning of the combat (before any model attacked) may split their attacks freely between those units. Declase how they are splitting their attacks immediately before rolling to hit."

 

Basically, any model with more than 1 attack can split them up.

 

Where do his attacks go?

You got it right; they go poof against the blue dudes that already died, just like bolters do when the heavy weapon fires at a tank. I was going on the idea that the green dude to mr x's right had a higher initiative for some reason and wiped out the blues, thus forcing mr x to lose his attacks for that round.

[Commander Sasha]

Just to check, if the engaged model, in this case your captain, had the 'counter-attack' rule, he wouldn't be able to use it when subsequently attacked by the Termies, correct?

[Frosty the Pyro]

Just to check, if the engaged model, in this case your captain, had the 'counter-attack' rule, he wouldn't be able to use it when subsequently attacked by the Termies, correct?

Correct, if you read the counter attack special rule at the top of page 74 "This ability cannot be used if, when assulted, the unit was already locked in combat from a previous turn."