Why is the Codex so Unfluffy?

[Devon M]

In a lot of the fluff I've read, including the novels, the GK are very much similar in their structure to other chapters, except for the multiple GM and Justicars instead of srgts and such. But then how come in the codex there aren't any chaplains, when they are specified in the book? Also, how come no preds and such?

Also, lol, do they have librarians? Each GK is somewhat psykic, and the GM and BC are pretty powerful, but is there anyone devoted to the role?

[Lungboy]

Ignore the Counter books when it comes to fluff, he just made it up as he went along. All GK are psykers, most more powerful than other Chapter's devoted Librarians, so there is no need for "proper" Librarians.

[Marid]

The GK books were terrible, especially the last one. Pay no attention to whatever heresies one finds within.

[Devon M]

I thought that the first book was good, and then it just went down hill. The last one, on the daemon world, had really nothing to do with GK, and it could have been any person there.

[Uncle Mel]

Those books you refer to as fluff, are nothing, just as much fluff as the morning newspaper. So please never, ever complain why our army list doesn't contain chaplains, techmarines, landspeeders, etc.

 

Mel

[- 7eAL -]

In a lot of the fluff I've read, including the novels, the GK are very much similar in their structure to other chapters, except for the multiple GM and Justicars instead of srgts and such. But then how come in the codex there aren't any chaplains, when they are specified in the book? Also, how come no preds and such?

Also, lol, do they have librarians? Each GK is somewhat psykic, and the GM and BC are pretty powerful, but is there anyone devoted to the role?

The very earliest fluff for Grey Knights had them exactly identical to standard Chapters. No Aegis armour, no Nemesis force weapons, no stormbolters. That's right, exactly the same, down to the bolters, Chaplains, Librarians and Assault squads with jump packs. Clearly, they have evolved.

 

On top of that, they were all psykers who were, for reasons that I still find highly illogical, trained not to use their powers so that they would not be at risk of Daemonic possession. That's backwards logic right there. Why are untrained psykers at less risk than normal Marines when it is made clear that psykers are natural conduits for Warp energies and naturally attract Daemons? Why would the Grey Knights have Librarians if they believe that using their psychic powers constitutes risk of possession?

 

 

In any case, look at the primary traits of Grey Knights and you will have your answers:

1. Librarians can be represented by Grand Masters and Brother-Captains. Everyone is already a psyker, so no noticeable ingame differences.
   
2. Chaplains can be represented by Grand Masters and Brother-Captains. Everyone is already Fearless, so no noticeable ingame differences.
   
3. Grey Knights favor teleport deployment (they must have quit using Assault squads at some point)
   • They can be deployed quickly and directly where necessary. Transports such as Rhinos are unnecessary.
     
   • They can be deployed regardless of fortifications and structures. Siege weapons such as Vindicators are unnecessary.
     

[*]Grey Knights primarily fight Daemons.

• Daemons are primarily infantry. Anti-armour support is generally unnecessary.
  
• Daemons can be controlled by using their True Names.
  • Pilots and drivers of vehicles cannot use True Names against Daemons. Advantage of knowing True Names is lost.
    

[*]Grey Knights must remain undetected by all other allies and forces.

• Large vehicle convoys and columns are noticeable and leave heavy tracks. Ground vehicles constitute a security risk.
  
• Aerial vehicles are noticeable and visible from greater distances. Aerial vehicles (jump packs, drop pods and skimmers) constitute a security risk.
  
• Siege weapons leave significant and noticeable devastation. Siege weapons constitute a security risk.
  
• Insertion and extraction must remain undetected by all other allies and forces.
  • Large numbers of extraction Thunderhawk transports are noticeable and visible from greater distances. Extraction must use minimal transports.
    

  [*]Cleanup is slow, Grey Knight casualties and wreckage must not be left behind. Vehicle wreckage constitutes a security risk.

What major operations are depicted in the Grey Knights books generally manage to avoid any contact with other human forces. Points 3 and 5 can be ignored so long as nobody else is there to watch.

What specialized roles and characters are depicted in the Grey Knights books are carried out on a smaller scale than the tabletop rules. Points 1 and 2 can be ignored since greater detail can be observed at a smaller scale.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

In a lot of the fluff I've read, including the novels, the GK are very much similar in their structure to other chapters, except for the multiple GM and Justicars instead of srgts and such. But then how come in the codex there aren't any chaplains, when they are specified in the book? Also, how come no preds and such?

 

You've started from a flawed premise, namely that the books are canon whilst the codicies are not. The codicies are written by the Design Studio, who are employed to write both the fluff and the rules for armies. The books are written by Black Library, in this case two authors: Ben Counter and Graham McNeill. Black Library authors are employed to write good stories and sell their books.

 

For the Design Studio, story < fluff. For BL, story > fluff. Whilst fans are split over whether or not BL is canon, you're the first person I've seen to claim that the codicies are not canon. After all, it is their purpose to be authoritative.

[Devon M]

In response to Tyrak, I am not suggesting that the codex ISN'T canon. They don't say anywhere that there AREN'T chaplains or whatever (just because the SM codex doesn't have a Uriel model doesn't mean i think its not fluff), I'm just wondering why the rules/units didn't reflect the fluff from sorces such as the books more. In most cases, other than a small thing here and there, the BL books seem pretty fluffy to me. They are, after all, catering to those who are fans of the 40k universe, and I'm sure they are careful to stick with the facts.

So...

1. not saying the codex aren't canon

2. am wondering why people don't think BL is canon

3. why aren't the GK more like a normal SM chapter, when, according to multiple fluff sources, they are nothing more than a SM chapter taken under the wing of the Inquisition.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

They don't say anywhere that there AREN'T chaplains or whatever (just because the SM codex doesn't have a Uriel model doesn't mean i think its not fluff),

 

Lots of things aren't said in the codicies, but there are still a fair few outlandish suggestions from BL that GW has shot down. Marines with multi-lasers for example.

 

Moreover, the Codex was written before the novels. The novels, by not sticking within the parameters of the Codex, have created contradictions. This can only conclusively be resolved by the next codex, which will either expand to include what is in the novels or block it.

 

am wondering why people don't think BL is canon

 

Because BL is full of contradictions, between both it and Studio material and between different BL authors' work. Add to that that BL's claim to canonicity is based on the idea that there are only "a few contradictions here and there", and you can see why people favour the codicies. They are written by an organisation that makes sure everyone follows the same line, blocks any contradictions within its own work, and has no other purpose than to produce official material. BL, on the other hand, does not make its authors stick to the same line, or to the Studio line, and has an alternative purpose other than being official - telling a good story.

 

why aren't the GK more like a normal SM chapter, when, according to multiple fluff sources, they are nothing more than a SM chapter taken under the wing of the Inquisition.

 

Because they haven't been so since their very first incarnation. Even the novels you cite stick to that line, with two exceptions - the GK Chaplain and Alaric's doubting, both from Counter's work (McNeill doesn't include either, and as a result his work is entirely compatible with the Codex line, whilst still expanding on it).

 

They are, after all, catering to those who are fans of the 40k universe, and I'm sure they are careful to stick with the facts.

 

They should, but that does not mean that they do. Unlike the Studio, they are not forced to. Some authors take care to research and not to contradict the established material, some do not.

[wizard12]

as far as I have picked up in my time as a GK player is that they do have libraians and chaplains... just not as conbat units. Who knows, there probably just extra jobs for justicars and brother captains to do when back on base as a secondary role.

[Uncle Mel]

I'm just wondering why the rules/units didn't reflect the fluff from sorces such as the books more.

 

because the rules are much older than those books.

[jeffersonian000]

The primary job of a Librarian is to act as an Astropath, something both a Grand Master and a Brother-Captain already do. The primary job of a Chaplain is to see to the spiritual well being of their brethren, something every Justicar already does.

 

From the point of view of the novels, I've always seen them as future mythos as they are telling an epic tale of the "past" the an audience in the "future" much in the same way we tell stories of gods and mortals battling monsters some 20,000 years ago (i.e., Greeks). As such, the storyteller is using language his audience can understand which may or may not be accurate.

 

When the author tells of a Grey Knight Librarian, he is most likely telling about a Brother-Captain that is fulfilling a role that a Librarian would be filling in a Space Marine chapter. When he tells of a Grey Knight Chaplain, he is most likely telling of a senior Justicar tasked with the spiritual well being of all the Knights in his task force rather than with just his squad.

 

Things we do know about the Grey Knights that set them apart from all other chapters is that every single knight is a psyker, every single one of them is trained to focus his power into a group gestalt that shields them all from influences of the Warp, that while veteran knights capable of channeling their power through their weapons while still maintaining the gestalt are worthy of Tactical Dreadnought Armour, only those knights of extreme power that can maintain the gestalt, power their weapon and manifest psychic effects all at the same time without coming under the influence of the Warp become Brother-Captains, and a Grand Master is a knight of such power and experience as to take everything a Brother-Captain is to another level of mastery.

 

In effect, Grey Knights are more like a clan of psychic warrior monks than an elite military unit that we see in every other Space Marine chapter.

 

SJ

[KingDeath]

No No, you all got it wrong. See, all Grey Knight aspire to become Ultramarines and follow the Codex Astartes.

That's why they need librarians despite being a chapter full of psykers and Chaplains despite having Justicars for that role.

...or not.

 

Of course, writing about a truly different chapter, perhaps the most inhumane of all, would have required a somewhat decent BL author

and as we all know they are about as common as a honest politican.

[Eddie Orlock]

The primary job of a Librarian is to act as an Astropath, something both a Grand Master and a Brother-Captain already do.

Really now? And here I thought I could cite sources stating that Astro-telepathy was unique to the conveniently named 'Astro-Telepaths', or 'Astropaths' for short, an ability only they could manifest thanks to their soulbinding, something ordinary psykers, like librarians, can not manifest. Nay, the role of librarian was local communications and record keeping.

 

@ 7eal, or, as I've cited in the past, an entire chapter of the exceptionally strong willed and/or near nulls. There was a time when Grey Knight Psykers were even more rare than Marine Librarians, as the extra rials resulted in even greater failure rates.

 

Grey Knights in general have incoherent fluff.

[Devon M]

I think the solution to all of this would be a new codex.

[- 7eAL -]

@ 7eal, or, as I've cited in the past, an entire chapter of the exceptionally strong willed and/or near nulls. There was a time when Grey Knight Psykers were even more rare than Marine Librarians, as the extra rials resulted in even greater failure rates.

 

Grey Knights in general have incoherent fluff.

Incoherent indeed! I was reading Slaves to Darkness, which itself shows internal conflict.

It says: all Grey Knights are "specially screened to exclude all but the strongest and most resilient psykers". It then says on the next line: "as a result, very few of the Grey Knights have any psychic power whatsoever". That is the oldest fluff I can find on the Grey Knights.

 

These lines are utterly contradictory: there is no logical connection explaining why the Grey Knights, as "strong and resilient psykers", have no psychic power "whatsoever", because the term "psyker" by definition requires that an individual possess psychic power and is able to access that strength. The only sort of creature that can claim this status is an Ork, who are psychically active and psychically charged - but even then are not psykers because they do not possess or access any psychic power. Clearly the Grey Knights are some unique form of powerless psyker.

 

 

In the next edition, we get Codex Imperialis, which does not point toward Grey Knight psykers being few, or even being psychically weak.

It says that Grey Knights are "mentally tougher than most Space Marines and many are psychic" (p 32). Here the position on number of psykers has toned down, since Slaves to Darkness explicitly says that all Grey Knights are psykers because they will recruit nobody else, while Codex Imperialis only says "many" and therefore only implies a "notable proportion" that does not necessarily mean a "majority proportion".

At the end of the same paragraph, it says also that Grey Knights are "among the strongest psykers of the entire race". This is further backed up in the following section on psykers, which says that amongst Primary/Primaris psykers "the most talented of all may become Inquisitors or Grey Knights". Here Codex Imperialis ignores the lack of psychic powers that was stated in Slaves to Darkness, implying by default that Grey Knights psykers do in fact have powers, and not "psykers" in name alone.

 

 

In 3rd Edition, we arrive at the Codex Daemonhunters. The rest is history.

But the codexi are always the most stringent form of canon fluff, where did anyone say that Grey Knights included nulls, or were very rarely psykers?

 

 

Really now? And here I thought I could cite sources stating that Astro-telepathy was unique to the conveniently named 'Astro-Telepaths', or 'Astropaths' for short, an ability only they could manifest thanks to their soulbinding, something ordinary psykers, like librarians, can not manifest. Nay, the role of librarian was local communications and record keeping.

Again in Codex Imperialis, "the Chapter's Librarium is its command and communications centre. Because interstellar communications are achieved by psychic means, most of the Space Marines who work in the Librarium are psykers" (p 19). Additionally, "psykers are an essential part of every fighting force because they are the only means of communicating over interstellar space." Finally it states that a Librarian of Epistolary rank or better "corresponds to that of chief psychic communications officer" and that he can "transmit and receive psychic messages on the battlefield".

 

Clearly the Space Marine Librarians are exempt from Soulbinding, because only within Primary/Primaris psykers "the very young may be indoctrinated into the Space Marines", while common Astropaths are "selected from the second ranking of psykers" (p 36). Astropaths require Soulbinding whereas Librarians do not, because their powers are "considerable but inadequate to resist the dangers of possession or daemonic corruption". The Soulbinding "gives them a little of the Emperor's strength" and thus serves to remedy their comparative weakness beside Primary/Primaris psykers.

[Magnus Thane]

Well I do like the GK novels so 'nyah'! :P

But I must agree that there is a need for more clarity and just 'codex fluff'. As codex fluff is more clearcut valid.

[SamaNagol]

The most abundant sources of fluff show the Chapters' Librarium as tasked with keeping records of the Chapter's history and achievements. It never really says why they need to be psychic though.

 

And all Chapter's have a fleet and as such have navigators and astropaths, so god knows why they would include that in the role of Librarians.

 

I always just assumed all Grey Knights have innate psychic potential, and some battle brothers manifest this potential in the form of psychic powers. It was my understanding that the circuitry in the Grey Knights' armour and NFW was psycho-reactive and needed some psychic ability to even work.

[Octavulg]

That sentence, 7eal, likely is meant to be the following:

 

"the Grey Knights are carefully screened to exclude all psykers but the strongest and most resilient."

 

See the difference? The sentence you quote could be parsed to mean that, and it'd be consistent with the next sentence you mention.

[Skyhawk]

Now this... this is the kicker!

First time do I see a codex being called "unfluffy" or "not-canon". (Well except for the latest CSM or Daemon dexes but they deserve it)

I have no idea what you people want. Silver Marines? Go play SMurfs!

Everyone compares every army to the smurfs. Smurfs this, smufs that...

 

Judging from the sheer number of 11-year olds popping up on this forum and yelling "OMG! Da books has GK chaplin! So cool, why we no has one??!!!!111 Codex is bad cus has no chaplin and no libra but has wierd things that 11-yearolds can't understand" I can say only what follows:

 

- Ben Counter is the worst author in BL.

- I will never buy nor read any of his books... aside from the one I "had to" wich was the Battle for the Abyss the weakest books from the HH series.

- He should be hung by the progenoids on a lamp post and all his books burned by His Holy Inquisition, because this is sad.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Ben Counter is the worst author in BL.

 

I suspect that might be because the Grey Knights have never been given the C S Goto treatment. <_<

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Now this... this is the kicker!

First time do I see a codex being called "unfluffy" or "not-canon". (Well except for the latest CSM or Daemon dexes but they deserve it)

I have no idea what you people want. Silver Marines? Go play SMurfs!

Everyone compares every army to the smurfs. Smurfs this, smufs that...

 

Judging from the sheer number of 11-year olds popping up on this forum and yelling "OMG! Da books has GK chaplin! So cool, why we no has one??!!!!111 Codex is bad cus has no chaplin and no libra but has wierd things that 11-yearolds can't understand" I can say only what follows:

 

- Ben Counter is the worst author in BL.

- I will never buy nor read any of his books... aside from the one I "had to" wich was the Battle for the Abyss the weakest books from the HH series.

- He should be hung by the progenoids on a lamp post and all his books burned by His Holy Inquisition, because this is sad.

i'd actually have to say james swallow is the worst BL author of all time...

[SamaNagol]

Ben Counter is a veritable Tolstoy compared to Goto and Swallow

[Grand Master Tyrak]

i'd actually have to say james swallow is the worst BL author of all time...

 

I'd say James Swallow's BA novels had a similar effect on the BA community to what Ben Counter's did to the GK community.

 

If anyone wants to know more, search the BA sub-forum. That should give you an idea of their reactions.

 

But I suspect we'll go too far off-topic if we discuss just which BL author is the worst.

 

Come to think of it, maybe a quick search of this sub-forum for threads on Ben Counter's books when they first came out might help give an idea of how much trouble they caused.

[Magnus Thane]

Now this... this is the kicker!

First time do I see a codex being called "unfluffy" or "not-canon". (Well except for the latest CSM or Daemon dexes but they deserve it)

I have no idea what you people want. Silver Marines? Go play SMurfs!

Everyone compares every army to the smurfs. Smurfs this, smufs that...

 

Judging from the sheer number of 11-year olds popping up on this forum and yelling "OMG! Da books has GK chaplin! So cool, why we no has one??!!!!111 Codex is bad cus has no chaplin and no libra but has wierd things that 11-yearolds can't understand" I can say only what follows:

 

- Ben Counter is the worst author in BL.

- I will never buy nor read any of his books... aside from the one I "had to" wich was the Battle for the Abyss the weakest books from the HH series.

- He should be hung by the progenoids on a lamp post and all his books burned by His Holy Inquisition, because this is sad.

i'd actually have to say james swallow is the worst BL author of all time...

 

Well I thoroughly enjoy Ben Counter. Both the Grey Knights omnibus and Daemonworld were fun novels. Tastes differ.