Do you want your next DH or WH codex, just GK and Sob codex?

[morcus]

Seeing GK, SoB and Plastic in the same sentence just makes me shout 'NO!!', neither are armies that should be plastic. I personally think they should make the GK and the SoB more complicated and thus more elite, they won't because GW's model is more about money than the old ways of wargaming. I'd like to see Pure GK with more teleporting special rules, another Troop Option, and Jump packs.

 

I actually think you could build an Iquisitorial strike force with just the IG codex that would work Fluffwise, albeit with less special options.

[The Holy Heretic]

Without the inquisition the grey knights are just a bunch of silvery colorcoded space boiz. They're just too cool to be just another marine chapter :)

 

The Inquisition adds cool assassins, and not to mention the all important ISTs to the list. Why are ISTs important, you ask? Because their feebleness makes our knights look even better in comparison. Its the same reason why pretty girls bring their ugly friend, when they're going out - so they look even better compared to the ugly girl. We need the assassins, cause we need to have things that are even more elite and specialized than the common astartes, because we're the finest the imperium of man has to offer.

 

Grey Knights may be our 'heroes', but they really are the most bland troops in our arsenal :) And the worst thing that could happen to DH is to become just another chapter of marines. If I wanted to play marines, I would have chosen Rainbow Warriors ;)

[SamaNagol]

I would have been utterly against plastic about 2 years ago. But seeing the Space Wolves sprues has converted me. There would be absolutely no loss of detail, there would be no need for me to fill my room with miniscule metal shavings from my dremmel tool, and it actually would be practical to get a GK with an Incinerator for a change. There is no reason NOT to do GKs in plastic. I don't care about some nonsense elitism about keeping them metal. And I can say that as someone who has actually bothered to convert my metal guys.

 

And if I ever see GKs with jump packs I think I will do a little sick in my mouth.

[panbient]

They need one new special weapon. A form of Blessed Melta gun. Although I don't know how broken that would be for character hunting.

 

the rest of the Inquisition calls those Inferno Pistols ;)

[- 7eAL -]

I would have been utterly against plastic about 2 years ago. But seeing the Space Wolves sprues has converted me. There would be absolutely no loss of detail, there would be no need for me to fill my room with miniscule metal shavings from my dremmel tool, and it actually would be practical to get a GK with an Incinerator for a change. There is no reason NOT to do GKs in plastic. I don't care about some nonsense elitism about keeping them metal. And I can say that as someone who has actually bothered to convert my metal guys.

I still don't see any engraved or stamped runic detail on Space Wolves. That said, it's probably quite possible.

 

Of course, I take metal elitism to a whole different level: the notable thing about metal Knights in power armour is that their ammo is fed from a belt. The scale and finesse of that particular detail is not even the upper limit of metal, but rather demonstrates a limit of multi-part modeling. That belt is not easily adaptable in plastic unless individual links are moulded, or arms are reduced to a limited number of positions that retain the connection. Of course even the belt can be scrapped altogether, but then there is no ammunition source - except the storm bolter ammo drums, or top-loading clips, neither of which are attractive. It is indeed why the Knights' power armoured torsos are all made with the storm bolter arm stationary while the Nemesis force weapon arm is separate.

 

Really, the single piece power armoured torso with the fixed storm bolter arm might have to stay metal, or at least one-piece. Everything else can potentially go plastic, because they can be separated into various integral parts along the joints. I'd still prefer metal multi-part over plastic multi-part, however, if the torso has to stay metal. Metal legs are better for supporting a metal torso, since it has additional weight and therefore forces the center of gravity downward.

[SamaNagol]

I'd have to disagree.

 

There's several parts on both Space Wolf sprues with engraved detail. There's also a belt fed Assault Cannon which is one of the best pieces I've seen. What you will see is a selection of different storm bolter arms in a variety of different positions which are all inter-changeable.

[morcus]

Its not really just about detail, its about alot of other things, though mostly elitism and tradition. Plastic has come along way but it will always be inferior to metal, metal has qualities that, whilst not nesserilliy beneficial, give it a much higher status than plastic. I know most of you don't agree but its the way it was and its passing would cause something of myself to be lost forever.

 

I still stand that Inq armies should be aimed at the veteran player and should work in more complex ways to encourage this.

[SamaNagol]

None of that actually made any sense whatsoever. What a ludicrous concept.

[KingDeath]

Imo, if they keep the detail and lower the price then plastic would be ok. If that is not possible then they should stay metal.

[- 7eAL -]

I'd have to disagree.

 

There's several parts on both Space Wolf sprues with engraved detail. There's also a belt fed Assault Cannon which is one of the best pieces I've seen. What you will see is a selection of different storm bolter arms in a variety of different positions which are all inter-changeable.

I know they can have storm bolters in various different interchangeable positions. They already have storm bolter armys in various belt fed positions. I fail to see however, the attraction in having a variety of different storm bolter arms in various positions if each arm is limited to one particular angle, for the sake of hooking up its belt feed. I'm sure you have noted as I have, that any model with a belt or hose feed, whether it is a Kasrkin Stormtrooper or a Space Marine Devastator or a Guard heavy flamer or the Wolf Guard assault cannon are all more or less limited to one position if one connects the weapon's belt feed appropriately, though one can achieve some wiggle room by nudging things a little bit. Given this limitation, I don't see any significant change if all parts connected by that belt feed are a single piece - in the case of Grey Knights, from the storm bolter arm up to the upper torso, not including the head and Nemesis force weapon arm.

 

 

I will of course concede this: I have a particularly grave personal investment in the work and effort I have expended on my Knights, and my resultant satisfaction greatly outweighs any frustration I may have subsequently forgotten about the difficulties of working with metal. To that end, a significant part of my resistance, and I am certain many who resist as I do, comes from the same curmudgeonly roots as that of every veteran Ork Warboss who complains about plastic Trukks and Deffkoptas, every Forgeworld pilot who feels slighted by the plastic Valkryie (and it's Skimmer state), and every old man who tells his grandchildren that he had to wake up at dawn just to get to school on time. It's not the same as envy, but rather a deep dissatisfaction: "Why should I come first and suffer this inconvenience, while everyone else who hopped into my bandwagon afterward gets the easy way out?"

 

The second part of my resistance is far more salient and "real". I am afflicted by an inescapable fear that plastic Grey Knights will somehow do the metal originals (Jes Goodwin's, I believe) an incredible injustice. I am afraid that I will wake up one morning to find that in my local store and splashed across this board I will see Grey Knights with distinct kneepads - Grey Knights use Corvus pattern greaves without them. I am afraid that I will see ridged Maximus pattern helmets sitting exposed without the tall Errant pattern gorget collar. I am afraid that instead of Grey Knights with scripted engraved armour I will see Grey Knights with the Imperial Eagle behind the encased books on their chests. I am afraid that I will see hanging scrolls, medallion awards, aiguilletes and helmet crests. I am afraid that I will see Grey Knights with bare screaming heads, and if their faces happen to be painted too pale I might be unable to tell them apart from the Silver Skulls on the other side of the table.

 

And there - there lies my fear.

I am afraid that plastic Grey Knights will leave us looking too much like heavily armed Space Marines, like Space Marine Veterans. And worse still, fearing that I will look at an unpainted Space Marine army on the table, that I will see all those cannibalized Grey Knight parts primed and waiting for colour, and - while thinking that they are Grey Knights, smile with pride upon the child rolling dice for them - only to be disappointed when I return two weeks later to find them painted ...

in Ultramarines blue.

 

 

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u129/darktwister754/Icons/daemonhunters-13.jpghttp://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u129/darktwister754/Icons/warhammer-02a.pnghttp://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u129/darktwister754/Icons/warhammer-311b.png

[SamaNagol]

In my personal opinion, the metal Grey Knights in power armour were absolutely AWFUL. Jes Goodwin only did the Terminators which were beautiful, the power armoured versions looked awkward with far inferior weapon designs.

 

It is entirely possible to provide a variety of different arms whos belt feeds all end up attaching back to the same point on the torso, so while you might not be able to position the arms anyway you should see fit, with a likelihood of a minimum of 5 different storm bolter arms in a box they will most likely give you every conceivable position anyway. Coupled with properly filled out legs (the girly thighs of the current PAGK look ridiculous) and hopefully sleeker looking Halberds and storm bolters, along with an array of cowled and helmeted heads on a sprue along with a variety of trinkets to adorn your Knights.

 

I understand your trepidation when it comes to re-designing anything Jes Goodwin sculpted, but with the quite frankly breath taking Wolf Guard and Space Hulk terminators of recent I have no doubt that Grey Knights would be up to the original standard of Jes' work.

 

And the prospect of an enormous Grand Master model swimming in decoration and ornamental relic weapons makes me feel moist in my pants.

 

A Terminator box of 5 with both special weapons and 2 Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield pairings along with a selection of 3 cowled heads.

A Power Armoured box of 5 with all special weapons (hopefully 3 with a new anti tank/melta weapon) with some more dynamic poses and sleeker design.

A plastic Grand Master box with a selection of ornate Sword and Halberd along with all 3 ranged weapon options. Depending on the rules, maybe parts for a Chaplain should they choose to include them.

A vehicle upgrade sprue with LR hatches, psycannons, psykout grenade launchers and a Dreadnought faceplate.

2 or 3 metal characters.

 

That would be perfect. And I see no reason why the level of detail would be any less than the current range. I'd still keep my current conversions and add them into any new models for a fully unique force.

[SamaNagol]

*double post*

[Aeddon]

For GK's to stand on their own two legs, they will need a major overhaul. Any battle hardend player can state that IST providing cheap wounds, is what keeps GK's alive.

 

-Gib-

As a "battle hardened" pure Grey Knight player I hardily disagree with you. The tactics I employ keep my Grey Knights alive.

 

But to the point, I would like to see both Grey Knights and Sisters get their own independent codices as well as a general Inquisition codex put out that could add inquisitional forces to any imperial force, from any ordo. I don't play and Inquisitors, IST, assassins or any other inquisitoral forces but I don't want the option to go away either.

[Magnus Thane]

I'd like to see the GK's become the bread and butter of the DH dex. Capable of holding their own.

But the possibility to add in an Inquisitor/Retinue and some of his followers should stay in as they tag along on some missions or even lead them.

But above all I want to see some more GK options. At the minimum I'd like to see pure GK become more competitive.

[SamaNagol]

The important thing is to identify what the weaknesses of the Pure GK build is as it stands, and then posit realistic solutions to these problems.

 

Melta availability would be one. Lack of basic equipment would be another. And the biggest flaw in their design when it comes to translating fluff to tabletop is the complete ineffectiveness of teleportation as a method of deployment as it stands in the rules. I would like to see these 3 things looked at.

[The Holy Heretic]

There are enough ways to play space marines.

 

The Inquisition is what makes these armies cool. Without they would just be just another colorcoded bunch if power armors ;)

 

GKs may be the backbone of most armies, but stormtroopers, assassins and inquisitors is what gives the army its unique flavor :o

[Valerian]

The important thing is to identify what the weaknesses of the Pure GK build is as it stands, and then posit realistic solutions to these problems.

 

Melta availability would be one. Lack of basic equipment would be another. And the biggest flaw in their design when it comes to translating fluff to tabletop is the complete ineffectiveness of teleportation as a method of deployment as it stands in the rules. I would like to see these 3 things looked at.

 

Agree SamaNagol,

 

Making a pure Grey Knights army viable against all-comers wouldn't take much, and could probably be done with just a couple of moves.

 

Problem 1. Mobility - Grey Knight can move and fire their ranged weapons, which is great, but they still have limited mobility. a more accurate Deep Strike (say a scatter of a single d6, instead of 2d6 - and some sort of upgrade available for no scatter) would fix this. In my opinion Deep Strike should be available across the board (especially PAGK Troops). Then, to distinguish the PAGK Fast Attack choice, give them Heroic Intervention (at a price) as the tradeoff for not being Scoring.

 

Problem 2. Protection - Grey Knights, even in Power Armor, are all Elite and therefor expensive. However, they've got the exact same Saves as Marines that cost 2/3 what a Grey Knight does. The old/current codex tried to resolve this with The Shrouding, but that rule was not sufficient and did almost nothing at closer ranges (where Rapid Firing weapons prevail). Instead, The Shrouding could be a blanket additional save (5+ would be fair), that would be rolled before Armour Saves.

 

Problem 3. Ranged Anti-Tank - A lot of folks don't even like to consider giving Grey Knights a better ranged anti-tank capability, but it needs to be done to some degree to make them viable. Whatever is developed, just think of it as Anti-Greater Daemon and Daemon Prince capability - with usefulness against conventional vehicles as just a side benefit. I'd be perfectly happy if this were nothing more than a nice psychic power, like the Space Wolves' Living Lightning. Of course, I've always thought that the simplest fix for this was just to make the Psycannon a Rending weapon (due to the unique nature of the blessed bolts). With the nerf of Rending in this edition, it wouldn't make them too incredible, but would help.

 

Problem 4. - Close combat - Grey Knights are actually pretty decent in the area, given Strength 6 NFWs and True Grit, but they could be better considering their points and their Elite status. They could 2 attacks on the charge/receiving a charge - which compares rather poorly to a 15 point Space Wolves Grey Hunter that gets 3 attacks on the charge/counterattack. I'd give all PAGK "Psych-out Grenades", which count as offensive/defensive, and maybe even Haywire (have to go back and see what these do) grenades.

 

My new version of The Shrouding combined with Psych-out Grenades, and the ability to Deep Strike would probably bring the points up per model to at least 30 (if not more), but who cares? At least the army could hold its own against all comers.

 

Sorry to make this wish-listing, but I got excited.

 

Best regards,

 

Valerian

[Apogee]

I'm really hoping for one very large combined codex - WH, GK, and all flavours of the inquisition (or at least the two we got now). A bigger codex than before by far, but look at the Marines... awful big, and it's mostly fluff. I'm sure they could make it work. Just use the usual 'take this model to unlock this army' approach - let you take basic Sisters or GK with any army, but specialist units require the requisite leader. No Celestians without a Cannoness, no GK Termies without a Grandmaster. Inquisitors would be a bit odder - obviously no 'hosts without a radial DH Inq, but beyond that I dunno.

[morcus]

I think a 5+ invunerable save would be better than giving GK 2 saves as that goes against all precedence in the rules. To work on their own, sob and gk both need a second troop choice at the very least, and I think the teleportation rules would make more sense if they had better deep strike than everyone else. Another route that they could take is a different kind of teleportation (Rules wise) to make them more playable, maybe a fast attack unit of PAGK that moved as jump infantry to represent short range teleportation.

[Valerian]

I think a 5+ invunerable save would be better than giving GK 2 saves as that goes against all precedence in the rules.

 

Two "Saves" doesn't completely go against all precedence in the rules - just look at Feel No Pain. Although it doesn't work against certain weapon types (those that ignore armor saves, etc.), against "normal" attacks it functions exactly like a second save (except it comes after the Armor Save, rather than before).

 

The thing about an Invulnerable Save (such as the 5+ that you suggested) is that only helps against low AP ranged weapons that would ignore their usual 3+ Armor Save from their Power Armor. That's nice to help protect against those high-strength guns, but is of no help against a "Torrent of Fire" type of situation from the standard shooting of your typical enemy infantry. Again, the problem that Grey Knights have is that they have a lot of cool capabilities that necessarily drives their points cost up (its only fair), but the 25 point PAGK dies just as easily to enemy lasgun fire as a 15 point Grey Hunter. An Invulnerable Save doesn't remedy this, but a stacked "save" would. Instead of just giving them all Feel No Pain (which actually would solve the problem), I chose to change The Shrouding to a 5+ "pre-Save" to reflect that some of the shots that would have otherwise hit, instead do not because of the confusion caused by The Shrouding.

 

Best,

 

V

 

p.s. I do like the idea of the "Jump Infantry" option for FAGK to reflect their use of short-ranged Teleport jumps (like Warp Spiders, right?) and have even proposed this idea myself before. Kudos.

[Dogface]

There are enough ways to play space marines.

 

The Inquisition is what makes these armies cool. Without they would just be just another colorcoded bunch if power armors :P

 

GKs may be the backbone of most armies, but stormtroopers, assassins and inquisitors is what gives the army its unique flavor :P

 

 

I agree. GK's are neat but its the Inquisition that adds the real spice right now.

[Dogface]

Problem 1. Mobility - Grey Knight can move and fire their ranged weapons, which is great, but they still have limited mobility. a more accurate Deep Strike (say a scatter of a single d6, instead of 2d6 - and some sort of upgrade available for no scatter) would fix this. In my opinion Deep Strike should be available across the board (especially PAGK Troops). Then, to distinguish the PAGK Fast Attack choice, give them Heroic Intervention (at a price) as the tradeoff for not being Scoring.

 

Hmmm... I see giving the Justicar in the squad access to the SM Gate of Infinity power. It would be very useful for mobility purposes... and there would be the additional bit of LEAVING a CC battle that was going really poorly.

 

Problem 2. Protection - Grey Knights, even in Power Armor, are all Elite and therefor expensive. However, they've got the exact same Saves as Marines that cost 2/3 what a Grey Knight does. The old/current codex tried to resolve this with The Shrouding, but that rule was not sufficient and did almost nothing at closer ranges (where Rapid Firing weapons prevail). Instead, The Shrouding could be a blanket additional save (5+ would be fair), that would be rolled before Armour Saves.

 

Perhaps go with having Aegis being a 2+ armor? That would go a long way to adding survivability.

 

Now... I know you are gonna say they would be come Termies but they would not have an Invul Save.... and it would be validated in the # of points already paid for the models. GW does not use a Rubric to create these armies.... at least they didn't use one for the =I= forces when they were released.

 

Either that or have their Armor grant a 6+ Invul save. There really isn't much else to do other than something of a psy-power nature.

 

Problem 3. Ranged Anti-Tank - A lot of folks don't even like to consider giving Grey Knights a better ranged anti-tank capability, but it needs to be done to some degree to make them viable. Whatever is developed, just think of it as Anti-Greater Daemon and Daemon Prince capability - with usefulness against conventional vehicles as just a side benefit. I'd be perfectly happy if this were nothing more than a nice psychic power, like the Space Wolves' Living Lightning. Of course, I've always thought that the simplest fix for this was just to make the Psycannon a Rending weapon (due to the unique nature of the blessed bolts). With the nerf of Rending in this edition, it wouldn't make them too incredible, but would help.

 

I say give the Psycannon Rending or give a psychic test to the GK to add a d6 to a swing against a tank. Pass test, you are now 6+2d6 against that Chaos Soulgrinder.

 

All done without adding Melta weapons or las-cannons.

 

Problem 4. - Close combat - Grey Knights are actually pretty decent in the area, given Strength 6 NFWs and True Grit, but they could be better considering their points and their Elite status. They could 2 attacks on the charge/receiving a charge - which compares rather poorly to a 15 point Space Wolves Grey Hunter that gets 3 attacks on the charge/counterattack. I'd give all PAGK "Psych-out Grenades", which count as offensive/defensive, and maybe even Haywire (have to go back and see what these do) grenades.

 

My new version of The Shrouding combined with Psych-out Grenades, and the ability to Deep Strike would probably bring the points up per model to at least 30 (if not more), but who cares? At least the army could hold its own against all comers.

 

I think giving all GK 2 attacks base and True Grit works. They are supposed to be monsters on the assault and a bad idea to be assaulted.

 

Make the Shrouding do the following:

 

Leadership Test to see the GK squad past Range 12 This test is on the core Ldr stat, not the Army's.

When Assaulted, Ldrship test to get benefit of bonus attack for the Charge.

 

I say try the suggestion as listed above without changing points. I think it will make a pure GK list more survivable with out massive changes... cause I've seen about three pure GK lists played and of the collective 15 games, I've only seen them win six times. And that was against a small CSM force and small-ish Marine armies. Against everyone else, they were shot to pieces or assaulted into submission.... most of those games ending on t3 or t4.

[fuzbuckle]

I would actually like to see PAGK's get feel no pain (with all of their elite training, this isn't a stretch) which would help against close quarters, rapid fire situations and then have the fast attack PAGK's get something akin to Gates of Infinity, in addition to deep strike. Lastly, turn the shrouding into a 4+ or 5+ cover save (Keeps the same "flavor" as the current shrouding).

[morcus]

Warp spiders were what I was thinking of, and I think it would suit.

 

Another thing that could be used to represent shrouding could be a charicaristic test taken by units shooting them to see if they can over come its effects. I can't think what you'd use though, either I or Ld?

[- 7eAL -]

I would actually like to see PAGK's get feel no pain (with all of their elite training, this isn't a stretch) which would help against close quarters, rapid fire situations and then have the fast attack PAGK's get something akin to Gates of Infinity, in addition to deep strike. Lastly, turn the shrouding into a 4+ or 5+ cover save (Keeps the same "flavor" as the current shrouding).

As was argued by Valerian and I before, the problem with Feel No Pain is that it doesn't save us from many of the weapons that we fear most. Plasma cannons and power weapons, for example, negate Feel No Pain as well as power armour and Terminator armour. The highest limit of Feel No Pain is to shrug off things like battle cannons, ion cannons, and flamestorm templates.

 

 

I don't know when Valerian was last visiting the Inquisition Codex project, but I wonder whether anyone would believe in what we currently use as the to the Shrouding Problem. It is effectively a psychic power that forces enemies to reroll successful rolls to hit for a whole turn, so it works at all ranges and in close combat as well. Still doesn't help against blasts though. Needs more work, as usual.

 

 

Edit: Also, Legion of the Damned posted on Games Workshop today. They look excellent. They are all metal, however.