waaanial00 Posted November 26, 2009 Share Posted November 26, 2009 Hi all, Interesting rules question raised in the following battle report linky It looks as if there is some wording in the rules for Old Zogworts "Squig em" rule (think its called "Zogworts curse", but put squig em to make it obvious) which removes special effects on the army. Apparently an Ork player used this to neuter a Pedro army, claiming that after Pedro was squigged the army was no longer Stubborn and I assume could no longer count Sternguard as scoring. You may see in my response that I think this is pony but at present I havent had a chance to really fight it with knowledge. On the face of it there appears to be some RAW to it, assuming the rules are written as quoted in the thread above. I will have to check that but has anyone else run into this? It would be a very interesting counter to saw a Shrike army or a Vulkan army. How about squigging Khan and stopping that outflank? Thoughts, ideas, rules quotes? Wan Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185767-zogwort-squigging-marine-sc/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted November 26, 2009 Share Posted November 26, 2009 10 points for using the word 'pony' ;) overall i dont think it matters, the same argument could be made for killing them and since theres nothing in any rulebook to suggest this is the case then chapter tactics stay as they are edit: the decision to replace combat tactics is made at the beggining of the game and should last even when the SC is dead Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185767-zogwort-squigging-marine-sc/#findComment-2196880 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty the Pyro Posted November 26, 2009 Share Posted November 26, 2009 indeed. The only way to get rid of chapter tactics is to kill everythig with combat tactics (or in pedros case everything with flamers/meltas/hammers) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185767-zogwort-squigging-marine-sc/#findComment-2196927 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted November 26, 2009 Share Posted November 26, 2009 Chapter Tactics do not stop if the Character is removed from play, no matter by what means. Chapter Tactics alter your units' special rule as soon as you include that character in your army list. He does not need to arrive on the table in order for the rule to take effect, and his removal does not make it end. It would be quite complicated if in a khan army units held in reserve in order to outflank would lose that ability if khan happens to be killed before they arrived. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185767-zogwort-squigging-marine-sc/#findComment-2196992 Share on other sites More sharing options...
waaanial00 Posted November 26, 2009 Author Share Posted November 26, 2009 OK so I have found the passage in the codex which I am sure this is referring to: "If the Ork player scores higher, the target model is replaced with an angry squig... It has the profile below and no wargear or special rules..." The bits removed just refer to who controls and provides the squig model. As far as I can see this is the only passage which comes close to describing the situation we are talking about. Now considering the wording I would agree with what has been said before and conclude that the only affect it would have are any special rules like area affect. For example Kantors 12" +1 attack, Calgars God of War, Sicarus's use my Leadership rule. I dont believe combat tactics are reset based on what what is written in this entry. Wan Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185767-zogwort-squigging-marine-sc/#findComment-2197207 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Wilhelm Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 Special rules like Chapter tactics are in play for the whole game. The are CF the whole game. I think it is silly that you need to access any Chapters traits through a SC but that is for another time. The EC Vows are in effect the whole even when he dies in combat. Stuff that emanates from the mini directly - as in are measured from it, such as inspiring presence, are gone when he dies. I say the becoming a squig is the same thing as dying. I don't have a page to read this from but it seems common sense to me. If he argues it, it looks like he is acting like a jerk to me.... When a Warboss selects a Nobs Mob as TROOPS, they still remain TROOPS even when the Warboss is killed. Same thing. Wolf Guard attached to Grey Hunters is still a TROOP, even when the GH are all killed. Same thing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185767-zogwort-squigging-marine-sc/#findComment-2197481 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Wilhelm Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 Okay. The Marines are in the right and this is why. ;) C:UM pg 51. "A non-fearless SM unit with this special rule can choose to automatically fail any Morale check it is called upon to take." C:UM pg 90. "If you include PK then all units in your army exchange CT special rule for the Stubborn universal special rule and your SG gain the Hold the Line! special rule." Include PK in the list (and choose his rule in preference to other SC). That is the requirement. Not having him alive. Ultramarines Combat Tactics is not dependent on any Commander living. All eligible units get it. Kantor merely swaps CT for Stubborn and Hold the line!. His entry does not say "whilst he is alive" it says "exchange". This exchange is done before the game starts. It cannot be lost at any time. UM CT cannot be lost at anytime and neither can any other Chapters specific Chapter tactics. Inspiring presence is lost when dead or squigged as he ceases to be a Marine either way. ;) It clearly says "whilst he lives". Marneus and Sicarius both, also, make examples of when rules are specifically only in play when the SC is in play (on the board and alive) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185767-zogwort-squigging-marine-sc/#findComment-2197486 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rat of vengence Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 OK so I have found the passage in the codex which I am sure this is referring to: "If the Ork player scores higher, the target model is replaced with an angry squig... It has the profile below and no wargear or special rules..." The bits removed just refer to who controls and provides the squig model. As far as I can see this is the only passage which comes close to describing the situation we are talking about. Now considering the wording I would agree with what has been said before and conclude that the only affect it would have are any special rules like area affect. For example Kantors 12" +1 attack, Calgars God of War, Sicarus's use my Leadership rule. I dont believe combat tactics are reset based on what what is written in this entry. Wan I think you have it exactly right here, mate. A squig doesn't have Inspiring Presence, nor does it confer Ld10 to the army. But Chapter Tactics would remain unaffected. RoV Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185767-zogwort-squigging-marine-sc/#findComment-2197552 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine God Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 Chapter Tactics do not stop if the Character is removed from play, no matter by what means. Chapter Tactics alter your units' special rule as soon as you include that character in your army list. He does not need to arrive on the table in order for the rule to take effect, and his removal does not make it end. It would be quite complicated if in a khan army units held in reserve in order to outflank would lose that ability if khan happens to be killed before they arrived. Nice. So buying Kantor gives your Army the benifit and he doesn't need to be on the table. So I can spend his points for his benifits and I can say he is "In Reserve." I don't even need to buy the model, just field another cheap HQ. Great. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185767-zogwort-squigging-marine-sc/#findComment-2214402 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ntin Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 Well you would have to roll for reserve dice each round, it is not an optional rule. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185767-zogwort-squigging-marine-sc/#findComment-2214460 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine God Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 Still...... Where is that Low Rolling D6? :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185767-zogwort-squigging-marine-sc/#findComment-2216192 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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