The Improper Drop Pod Fraction

[ironking]

Has anyone had this issue - and if so how have you overcome it?

 

I am planning 3 Grey Hunter squads of 10, each led by a Wolf Guard (from my 3 or 5 man WG squad).

 

I want the 10 man GH squad because of the extra special weapon - im thinking a flamer and melta in each squad.

 

A drop pod can only carry 10 marines... so how do I get the WG PACK leader attached to them?

[stinkenheim]

you don't...

 

its a trade off, either a 9 man squad with WG in a drop pod or rhino

 

OR

 

10 man GH squad without WG in rhino or drop pod

 

I would always take the WG for the leadership boost, but i footslog so not a problem for me...

[Niiai]

Drop pods are very ideal for SW since they have the CA.

 

Drop->Shoot->Get Charge->Counter Sattack and kill->Footslogg and shoot again.

 

If you realy want to have a 10 marines and a WG you should foot slog as stinkenheim sugests. Not as eficient for melta weapons but very good for the plasma guns.

[earthen]

just because you have counter attack doesnt ever mean you actually *want* to bite a charge. Maybe against opponents lower than I4 that you can wipe out, but anything I 4 or above you really dont want to be giving an extra attack. Especially for things with furious charge or I5.

[ironking]

Interesting,

 

My playing circle is very small. I will most likely be playing 5-800pt games (on account thats all I can afford to put together for now) against Nids and IG Renegades.

 

Against the nids I can imagine that the counter-attack could be an issue, but with a WG (MotW) + 9 GH (1x MotW) that's plenty of attacks and should wipe out most smaller nids- and the 3+ saves help!

[Lumdin]

Don't genetsealers have a ws of 6 and I6.

 

Which means they may be going before your troops and killing them off before you can fight back.

[earthen]

yeah you're in trouble if you're in an assault with genestealers.

 

Dont forget theyve got rending, and often reroll to hit from feeder tendrils.

[stinkenheim]

stealers are also ridculously expensive. at 16pts base with a 5+ save they need extended carapace against marines which pushes them up to 19pts. without inifltrate they struggle to get into combat quickly enough and die very quickly from shooting.

at that size game i would take a mini nidzilla (tyrant kept cheap, rippers as troops and cheap fexs, spore mines as fast) nids struggle badly in small games as they can't afford to shell out points on warriors with the upgrades needed to make them survivable. they can't really rely on troops other than stealers/rippers (gaunts need synapse to do what you want) and without the screening gaunts units like ravenors die too quickly to small arms fire. all in all i feel sorry for your nid opponent as imho they need at least a 1500pt list beofre they begin to become scary.

 

also stealers rely on numbers of attacks (either through sheer numbers or scything talons + feeder tendrils) to make an impact in combat through rending against MEQ armies.

 

as for counter charge being great, it is against some armies. against most marine, chaos marine, IG, Necron armies it doesn't make much odds whether you or your opponent charges (althoug obviously they will get an extra turn of shooting, vital for guard). however against armies like orks where furious charge is included in most units special rules it can be extremely beneficial to get the charge as less attacks + lower strength means your forces take fewer wounds (obviously).

against eldar getting the charge often means that you do not have to endure numerous powers like doom that helps to buff the opponent or debuff you.

 

if i was to make such a small list i would include 3 units of small grey hunter packs in rhinos (maybe in razorbacks if i had the points), a small meltagun armed scout squad, wolf priest and some long fangs. if the points are there either some bikes or a dread would make a good speed bump in such small games.

[ironking]

if i was to make such a small list i would include 3 units of small grey hunter packs in rhinos (maybe in razorbacks if i had the points), a small meltagun armed scout squad, wolf priest and some long fangs. if the points are there either some bikes or a dread would make a good speed bump in such small games.

 

So far im going with:

 

HQ: Rune Priest (150pts)

(Term Armor, Wolftooth necklace, Chooser of the Slain, SotB, JotWW, FotWS)

 

Troops:

3x Grey Hunter Pack(ea GH pack incl. 1x MotW, 1x Flamer or melta) led by Wolf Guard (Term armor, either claw or fist) (drop pod - or 1 extra GH with melta or flamer and no droppod)

 

Fast Attack: (130pts excl wolf priest)

1x Sky Claw pack (1x flamer or melta, 1x MotW, 1x Power Weapon) led by Wolf Priest (Runic Armor, Jump pack, Crozium, SotBS)

 

Haven't figured it all out yet, but I think its a decent list and fluffy enough for my liking.

[G. A. K.]

Well, I see no problem with haveing nine GH and a attached WG getting the two special weapons. Afterall, once you reach 'ten models in the squad' you get the extra gun for free. And all the evidence I've seen (WD 358) agrees with me: On page 49 of that issue there is a space wolf army list written as an example to all readers.

In said list there are listed many things but what openned my eyes to this possibility was the two GH squads they used in the exapmle; the first was

ten Grey Hunter with flamer, meltagun,powerfist, plasma pistol, wolf standard and Rhino

the second had

nine Grey Hunter with flamer, meltagun,powerfist, plasma pistol, wolf standard and Rhino;

one Wolf Guard with power weapon.

Also in the Gh listing in our codex every single option uses the word 'Grey Hunter' instead of just 'model', except the mention of requiring 'ten models in the squad' to get the extra gun for free. And last time I checked, the WG is a member of the squad, putting thier number to a full ten man squad.

 

So it seems clear to me and my gaming group that their intent was to allow it. The only evidence I've seen to the contrary is that Army Builder doesn't agree. But I've never taken my rule advice from them because they are wrong a lot more than I am (as far as I've seen anyway).

 

I well come anyone to dispute my logic but the opposition (the B&C FAQ) has only opinions as to when the WG is joined to the pack, while I see no cold hard facts telling me its wrong.

 

G

[Lord Ragnarok]

This has been well covered. Please use the search function in the future as there is a stockpile of information already out there.

[Hfran Morkai]

I well come anyone to dispute my logic but the opposition (the B&C FAQ) has only opinions as to when the WG is joined to the pack, while I see no cold hard facts telling me its wrong.

 

I see no cold, hard facts telling us it is right.

 

This has been well covered. Please use the search function in the future as there is a stockpile of information already out there.

 

I think there's enough ammunition to end a war with how much the stuff in the new dex has been thrown around.

[stinkenheim]

i thnk taking 2 hqs is too much in such a small game, your spending what, 270+pts on 2 models. thats over 1/4 of your total points.

for me, murderous hurricane is better than fury of the wolf spirits, it does more damage against weeker opponents (guard and some nids) and makes them move as if in dangerous terrain which can help against tougher models and also slows them down.

if it were me i would drop one of the HQs and take a dreadnaught. it would be a massive fire magnet but also a big problem for anything without powerfists or rending in close combat.

 

im not used to playing such small games but heres a rough example of a list i would take incase you were interested, i will also explain some choices.

 

Rune priest 100pts

i would personally take stormcaller to help protect your advance, and then an offensive power of your choice.

 

6 Grey Hunters, Meltagun, Mark of the Wulfen 110pts

 

Razorback, Twin-linked Heavy Bolter, Extra Armour 55pts

 

6 Grey Hunters, Meltagun, Mark of the Wulfen 110pts

 

Razorback, Extra Armour, Twin-linked Heavy Bolter 55pts

 

5 Grey Hunters, Meltagun, Mark of the Wulfen,

Plasma Pistol 110pts

 

Razorback, Lascannon and Twin-linked Plasmagun,

Extra Armour 90pts

this way you have 3 mobile units able to take on most things (due to rending and meltaguns) that are able to quickly deploy to take objectives or support other units in your force.

the 5 man squad would be where i put the rune priest, and then cast stormcaller every turn to protect your transports, with etra armour they should be able to advance continually.

 

Predator, Heavy Bolter Sponsons 85pts

 

Whirlwind 85pts

these two pack enough firepower to decimate any mid-light infantry, plus they can also damage light vehicles. the predator can put our enough fire to force a couple of saves on monstrous creatures too, and the whirlwind can pin units helping portect a flank or unit that is under pressure.

 

5 Wolf Scouts, Mark of the Wulfen, Meltagun 100pts

i would bring these on to attack any armoured targets hugging the board edge, or heavy weapon teams. they can also support your offensive but charging in to tip an assault in your favour. again with their choice of weapons they are able to take on most things with a decent chance of success.

 

 

my main concern with your lst is that you have large blocks of infantry, that aside from the first drop have no manouverability. also with one unit having to drop first turn, and then the rest potentially could not arrive for several turns. this means that one unit will have to endure being surrounded and fired upon on their own for a while.

also i see you appear to have duplicated the saga of the beastslayer which you cant do.

i see you seem to likeMOTW, so i included that in all of the units, it also enables them to potentially deal with tough monstrous creatures.

the only HQ i included was a rune priest and i kept him cheap as if you can keep him away from enemy chracters as much as possible he should be able to deal fairly well with standard troops.

i kept a mix of weapons on the razorbacks so they can put out alot of firepower, but you also have three high strength and high apn shots if you need to attack tough targets.

 

i obviously realise you may not like this list, and i fully unnderstand if you prefer your own. in no way am i suggesting that my list is superior to yours either. hopefully you are able to take some things from this list.

good luck and keep us posted.

 

 

+EDIT+

 

@ GAK, two things, firstly if you read the white dwarf article you would have noticed that it was for a NARATIVE APOCALYPSE game. in apocalypse anything goes, and as a narative game the unit may well have had a back story to explain the lack of the extra grey hunter. you say you don't trust army builder to always be correct and yet you trust white dwarf, a publication that also claimed you could gain 7 thunder hammer attacks with MOTW and has made numerous basic mistakes throughout the years.

 

secondly, i refer you to page 86 of the space wolves codex.

'Pack Leaders; Thew olf guard act not only as bodyguards for the lords of fenris but also as leaders to those with less battlefield experience. BEFORE THE BATTLE, each wolf guard has the option of being split off from his pack....'

this does not say 'when the army list is picked' like the psychic poiwers for a rune priest but before a battle, so after the list ahs been drawn up. once the list has been written and you have only purchased 9 grey hunters and the one special weapon they are allowed then you cannot go back and get a free second because the wolf guard has suddenly joined them. there is no option in the grey hunter entry to allow you to purchase the free second weapon incase you attatch the pack leader to the unit, nor is there the option during creation to include the wolf guard in the squad. as such you only have 9 models until deployment begins by which poiunt it is too late to get the second weapon as your list has already been chosen and all items paid for..

it may seem a bad way of it being written, and you may feel that it is wrong but i believe you are looking for loopholes that aren't there.

this is in no way meant to be a rant at you by the way, and i truly apologise if it is taken that way.

[ironking]

stinkenheim

 

Your list looks good, I like the idea of multiple vehicles adding firepower... however I can't afford any vehicles and I am LOATHE to play with any "counts as" units.

 

Personally I love the idea of the skyclaws (i have some old pre-heresy raptor jump packs that are asking to be converted!).

 

Also - I will only have 24 torso's (from 2 wolf pack boxes) and 5 termi torsos (from the wolf guard box) to work with initially and then about 3 or 4 torsos in my bits box that I can convert - add the 24 WHFB chaos warrior bodies which will be hacked and GS'd (for their boots) and 5 WHFB Chaos Knights which I will use either for dynamically posed Sky Claws (Airwolves) or to do some ThunderWolf Cavalry and you will see why my list is so limited - also why im starting with 500pts.

 

So I can't take the same saga for 2 different characters in 2 different character classes? I will have to go back to my codex to check on that.

 

Agreed on the logic of the 9 / 10 dispute - everything happens at list level, what happens after that (ie. splitting WG and attaching them as pack leaders) is post list and precludes the addition of extra wargear or weapons.

[Niiai]

I am shure you know this, but if you put a WG in a 10 man unit that has DP then the DP will be deployed emty. (Somebody uses that with LF to drop after reserves have arived.)

[ironking]

I am shure you know this, but if you put a WG in a 10 man unit that has DP then the DP will be deployed emty. (Somebody uses that with LF to drop after reserves have arived.)

 

This may show just how green and 40k dumb I am but... huh? I'm not sure I follow!

 

It sounds like you are saying that after assigning the 10 strong GH with WG a drop pod I can put LF in it instead - or am I wrong?

 

I presume then that the GH + WG deploy as reserves from my table side - unless they are with a character that allows outflank?

[Hfran Morkai]

I am shure you know this, but if you put a WG in a 10 man unit that has DP then the DP will be deployed emty. (Somebody uses that with LF to drop after reserves have arived.)

 

This may show just how green and 40k dumb I am but... huh? I'm not sure I follow!

 

It sounds like you are saying that after assigning the 10 strong GH with WG a drop pod I can put LF in it instead - or am I wrong?

 

I presume then that the GH + WG deploy as reserves from my table side - unless they are with a character that allows outflank?

 

Nah' he's saying you could not put the pack in drop pod and have eleven men as footsloggers, then you have an additional, empty pod which you can either deploy in the first wave if you're opponent is off table or can use to deploy more pods in the first turn with actual packs in.

[Niiai]

The long fang trick i mentioned (I think it is kind of dumn) is to buy DP to the long fangs, and deploy them as usual, on your first turn the emty DP arives, and the rest of your assoult arives later (hopefully) after your oponents forces have arived.

[stinkenheim]

ok, i wasn't sure as to the extent of your collection. thats cool. i hope your list works well for you dude. take what you enjoy its the best way to play, because even if you loose you are playing with units you enjoy both on the table and in the background.

 

as for the drop pod trick, i have thought of using it if i was going to take say a dread in a pod as it means the empty one can come down first turn leaving my dread to deploy when units are nearer to support it. it stops things getting overrun.

 

re; sagas.

 

p 81 of the codex.

 

Leaders of the Pack; .... no two characters may bear the same saga, nor may they bear the same psychic powers or wargear combination....

[Valerian]

I am shure you know this, but if you put a WG in a 10 man unit that has DP then the DP will be deployed emty. (Somebody uses that with LF to drop after reserves have arived.)

 

This may show just how green and 40k dumb I am but... huh? I'm not sure I follow!

 

It sounds like you are saying that after assigning the 10 strong GH with WG a drop pod I can put LF in it instead - or am I wrong?

 

I presume then that the GH + WG deploy as reserves from my table side - unless they are with a character that allows outflank?

 

There are no characters that allow Outflank. A character with Saga of the Hunter can themselves Outflank, but there is nothing that says that they grant this to a unit that they join.

 

Valerian

[ironking]

good to know - on both accounts.

 

I will have to decide carefully whether to give my WolfPriest or my RunePriest SotBS.

 

You would think that SkyClaws would have the OutFlank rule - what are your thoughts on Wolf Scouts - they have the outflank rule right?

[Niiai]

Scouts have super outflank. But I think they lose that if an IC joins them, then it is just outflank.

[stinkenheim]

scouts have scout (unsurprisingly) and when they choose to outflank (an special deployment rule given to them by both infiltrate and scout) they have a special table they roll on.

I personally think that characters with saga of the hunter should be able to join a scout squad and outflank using their modified table.

 

i say this partly because i feel that was the intention of the rule, and secondly because the wording of behind enemy lines merely refers to a scout squad making use of its ability to outflank. as a character has this special rule i can see no real reason for him not to be allowed to deploy alongside them.

 

i fully realise not everyone will agree and i would discuss it with my opponent prior to me using it during a game. that is just how i interpret the rules and how i view the RAI. I am not meaning to say that i am right and others are wrong just my opnion.

 

as for skyclaws having outflank, the idea is they have deepstrike to represent low level drops from thunderhawk gunships allowing them to arrive where needed anywhere on the battlefield soi think that is a more fitting representation of their role other. i see outflank being a far more stealthy way of doing it rather than strapping a rocket pack to your back before trying to sneak up on people ;)

[ironking]

i see outflank being a far more stealthy way of doing it rather than strapping a rocket pack to your back before trying to sneak up on people :D

 

oh come on - you've never snuck up on your enemies while wearing an ear piercing, flame splitting rocket pack on your back and howling a blood curdling battle cry... :tu:

 

Ok so deepstriking them is a good way to deploy, but don't you have to roll to see if they come on?

Or put them in a rhino - drive 12", deploy, jump 12" - is that legal?

[stinkenheim]

to deep strike or outflank you need to be held in reserves. you start rolling on turn 2 and need a 4+ it then gets easier every turn after (T2= 4+, T3= 3+, T4=2+)

 

and jump infantry (anyone with jump packs counts as jump infantry) cannot be transported in a vehicle unless a special rule is written under the vehicles entry (i think a couple of apocalypse vehicles mention somethging). in this case no, skyclaws cannot travel inside any vehicle in our codex.

also, the unit cannot move any further when it disembarks unless the vehicle rmained stationary. the unit may run in the shooting phase if you want them to.

 

and since you described how bloodclaws would go about sneaking, i can't see why the scouts are needed at all... surely they won't be any more discreet than them :tu: