Combi Terminators VS heavy support

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Awhile back in one of our previous threads the idea of a list that made use of terminators with combi weapons to do the heavy hitting instead of heavy support came up. I believe it was jeske who suggested 6 man terminator squads with 3 combi plasma and 3 combi meltas. I used to play lots of lists that used a bunch of terminators like this and little heavy support, but that was back in the days before i knew what i was doing as well as i do now.

 

So, this thread is to discuss the merits of using our super efficient terminators in a heavy lifting, non-termicide fashion. How many would be needed? What weapon mix is ideal? What troops choices best support this? How does it actually compare to taking lots of heavies instead?

 

In 1500 you should be able to fit:

 

Daemon Prince

2 5-6 man terminator squads

3 troops squads

1 100-150 pt other unit. Cheap havoc squad, pred, vindi, or even dread (with the new rule interpretation seen in the other thread).

 

Is this the best sort of list to do this? Should it be 2 troops and 3 terminator squads? Would a fast lord or sorc with an icon be better for the deepstrike accuracy?

If this is the best sort of list layout, what exactly should go in each slot?

 

There's lots more potential questions i could pose, but thats enough to get us started.

[minigun762]

The first thing that comes to my mind is the need for Icon of Chaos Glory. With 3-4 guys in the squad, its a luxury but not mandatory but if you want to keep 5-6 Terminators on the field, I would consider it mandatory. Really the only other icon I can see being worth its points its IoS and thats only because you're mixing a cheap icon with free Power Weapons. Even then, its probably against the intended use of the squad.

 

As for Combi-choices, I'm not sure I would put alot of emphasis on Plasma. We aren't relentless, so we can't move and fire it 24" so it does nothing to increase our long range mobile firepower. For one-shot weapons, I don't think Plasma is the way to go. I'd rather see a mix of Melta and Flamers and even Fist weapons to do the same job.

[Corpse.]

You can get 10 combi's per elite slot for 50 points.

 

To round out the average shots a heavy support slot (namely say, havocs would) during 5 turns of fire before they're wiped out, or tied in melee, or even unable to fire.

 

4x5=20 shots.

You can get 20 plasma gun shots with the rapid fire. Or some heavy flamer hits in there if you're daring with some flamer hits. Lash would improve this, and deep strike is almost a must with icons to guide them close. A meltagun shot at short range can be viable to the comparison of a pair of missile launcher shots with its 2D6 penetration +ap1.

 

Its do-able, just not very capable at spreading shots from turn to turn and being a half melee unit in contrast it would be melee that more then likely takes charges rather then do the charging. (Shoot a tank, kill the tank, be unable to charge anything).

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I agree about the Icon of Chaos Glory.

 

I disagree about the combi plasma. I've run a 5 man all combi plas terminator squad with icon of chaos glory and 1 fist many many times. This squad is utterly devastating. With icons its usually no trouble to put it in rapidfire range of something. 10 plasma shots is usually enough to make back its 195pt cost straight up. The plasma is more flexible than melta. Melta is better against vehicles while being of very limited use for killing infantry. Plasma is still great against lighter armor, better against most MCs, and WAY better against infantry. The heavy flamer may well be worth using though. Maybe even reaper?

 

Interesting way to compare corpse. I think what this would have over any of the heavy support options you compare to is the ability to hit rear armor, be a continued threat, and not having to worry about being silenced or eliminated before they get to do something (deepstrike mishaps aside). Havocs or chosen that get their rhino popped aren't going to be that useful. Tanks run the risk of being continually silenced, especially if you go second. Ranged havocs could easily be shot down, or have something nasty dropped on them. Oblits drop pretty easily to stuff like lascannons, and aren't as efficient as terminators when used in close quarters.

 

 

I think an interesting comparison would be a terminator unit vs an equal cost of oblits. 3 oblits is 225 pts. For that much you get a 6 man squad with 6 combis, a fist, and chaos glory. They have the same number of wounds. If you count TL, the oblits are about equal if they are deepstruck in and fire a volley. The advantage after is that the terminators do better in CC and move faster, but the oblits can continue to fire each turn and have their wider weapon selection. Is the role of the two units different enough that they shouldn't be compared? Or similar enough that they should?

[minigun762]

I agree about the Icon of Chaos Glory.

 

I disagree about the combi plasma. I've run a 5 man all combi plas terminator squad with icon of chaos glory and 1 fist many many times. This squad is utterly devastating. With icons its usually no trouble to put it in rapidfire range of something. 10 plasma shots is usually enough to make back its 195pt cost straight up. The plasma is more flexible than melta. Melta is better against vehicles while being of very limited use for killing infantry. Plasma is still great against lighter armor, better against most MCs, and WAY better against infantry. The heavy flamer may well be worth using though. Maybe even reaper?

 

True, but for straight anti-infantry, you still have Bolters and (I assume) atleast one Flamer, so you don't really need alot more anti-infantry.

The other benefit of Melta is that its S8, which means you're insta-killing T4 units like annoying Nob Bikers.

 

What this means is that Plasma has to really excel at intended role of killing MEQs, Terminators and MCs, which is can do very well.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

True enough. I think then that we ought to conclude that plasma will outdo melta in some situations, but melta will outdo plasma in more. I don't think all melta would be a good idea. Maybe 1 plasma for every 2 meltas then? So in a 6 man squad you'd have a heavy flamer, 3-4 meltas and 1-2 plasma, depending on personal preference? Having the different types would also give the advantage of more mixed wargear profiles.

[minigun762]

Well if we assume you have a 6 man squad and I would assume that 1 guy is going to be using the Heavy Flamer, that leaves 5 other combi-choices.

3 Combi-Melta have been good enough for anti-tank normally (Termicide squads) so you could back them up with 2 Combi-Plasma.

 

Against anything thats not a Land Raider, thats 3 Melta shots and 4 Plasma shots you can hit a vehicle with at 12", thats pretty solid.

[aeroplane]

I like where this thread is going. My 2 cents -

 

I always run a 4- or 5-man Termie squad in my armies, and have never regretted taking Plasma as much as possible. However, the real lifesavers are a Chainfist and the H. Flamer. The Chainfist is expensive, but it so worth it. The Heavy Flamer is possible the best deal of any weapon in the Codex. Leave home without it only at your peril.

 

Also, a very important point - make sure your weapon loads on each model take full advantage of the wound allocation rules, and keep each model different. This seemingly simple thing really helps to keep the unit on the table.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

It certainly is. Also with so many combis you could fire the meltas and try to hold the plasma for the next turn to shoot infantry with, or another vehicle. Of course such things would be difficult to estimate.

 

So far we are thinking a mix but more meltas than plasma, and an icon. I'll also assume 1 fist. Now, is the heavy flamer really that useful? Or should it be another combi? The reason you might not want it is because its 1 less combi shot going up a tank's rear end when you DS. Also its an anti horde weapon on a squad thats mostly going to be for anti tank/elite. Is that worth it, or is it just over generalization?

 

Also, how many fists should such a unit have. Should any be chainfists?

[aeroplane]

Now, is the heavy flamer really that useful? Or should it be another combi? The reason you might not want it is because its 1 less combi shot going up a tank's rear end when you DS.

 

It's a truly useful weapon for any Termie squad that is not specifically a Termicide. Try it, you will like it! But even if it were taken only to make your models different for would allocation it would be useful

 

 

Also, how many fists should such a unit have. Should any be chainfists?

 

One powerfist, one chainfist works best for me. If you have any extra points, make the 2nd one a chainfist.

[Massawyrm]

The economy of these squads falls short when you compare them directly to what they are replacing: obliterators. The Jeske loadout comes in at 220pts IF all six are simply armed with power weapons (no power/chainfists). This is 5pts cheaper than a full 3 man Oblit team. For the same number of wounds and exact same saves you get 6 weapon options that are not one-shot, you get 3 powerfists AND all three of your short range options are twin-linked. Twin linked Plasma is about the nastiest weapon in the game. The only downside to the oblits is that they are unreliable about getting into CC quickly.

 

That's not to say that Termies aren't effective, but in order to make them a superior choice to the Oblits you need to make them better at something: IoN, IoK or IoT. IoK are great with power/chainfists when it comes to tearing up armor and troops, and IoN is great at making sticky Termies that don't want to die. IoT are only slightly less annoying than than SS/TH termies. But even with a solid Icon, these guys don't replace the heavy slot as readily as we'd like.

[minigun762]

Now, is the heavy flamer really that useful? Or should it be another combi? The reason you might not want it is because its 1 less combi shot going up a tank's rear end when you DS. Also its an anti horde weapon on a squad thats mostly going to be for anti tank/elite. Is that worth it, or is it just over generalization?

 

Also, how many fists should such a unit have. Should any be chainfists?

 

I would say that I'd rather buy the Heavy Flamer then any of the combi choices. Its the same price, can fire multiple times and is able to remove an entire squads if you're lucky. Remember that you have Power Weapons to handle MEQs and Terminators and Fists can handle MCs/Walkers/Armor but for my money, the biggest threat to a squad of Terminators is being pulled down by hordies.

 

As for the Fists, I would take 1 or 2 depending on points. The first would be a Chain Fist. The second a Power Fist.

The reason is that the Chain Fist is very useful but only against armor and frankly 1 should be enough backed up by Meltas. The Power Fist will be there to help against big MCs or insta-kill Nobs or the like.

[Corpse.]

Can always run 30 terminators for roughly 1125 or so points (using glory and a chainfist per unit+all 10 combis). Add 6 oblits for 450, totalling 1575. Maybe stuff the required troops in the form of a few squads stuffed as a reserves selection and a cheap HQ. Easily get a 2+/5++ army going with 42 wounds (maybe 3 more with HQ) before troops considered.

 

A nice rough 2+ save army that puts ap3 dependent armies to shame. Darkwing (duck?). Well, chaos-wing.

[the jeske]

Maybe stuff the required troops in the form of a few squads stuffed as a reserves selection and a cheap HQ.

so more or less unplayble unless you go US tournaments with 2500pts.

 

 

My view on this . I did test the 6 man termi build when I still wanted to play AL.[both 4th ed when it worked ok and in the 5th when it was less optimal , because lack of being scoring].

as gear goes . 2 fists or chaing fists . IoCGU almost a must . squads 8-9 PM units[i know normal squads are 7 man , but its about staying power here.other option is 2 normal sized pm squads and a unit of demons ] as troops . oblits arent a must , but they help with anti tank ,stranglly defilers work really well [more targets , more hth units].

build does not work at 1500 , because it is too random . even if dual lash is used [and we all know what problems this days chaos players have with lash] , its a very risky build [50% or less chance of success of doing stuff and to make the the list work you have to get reserves when you want , pop transports when you want and then not lose the plasma termis too soon etc etc too many ifs +the list doesnt generate enough preasure on the ground]. The list works really nice at 1750-1850. extra dps +points to buy oblits/defilers , smooth things up. Its like a revers chaozilla [termis are like flamers , 2 dps +defilers its GD/DP and pms are PB] build , very good against other meqs . lots of fists , lots of targets , lots of power weapon/special weapons.

Against non IG horde no deep strike , but a wall set up is used . I did not test how it works at 2k-2.5k[people dont play this size battles here and there 1 one tournament played 2250 through the whole year] . But it should do ok , more defilers 3 unit of termis would make the list less random , put more preasure on enemy units and have a nice base of troops . Should always lose against IG or at least against IG played well.

[Possessed Marine]

personally I go 2 5 man squads, one that's anti-armor and one that's anti-infantry.

 

Squad Alpha (AA) 280 pts

(1 Champion, 5 Chainfists, 1 Reaper Autocannon, 4 Combi-melta)

 

Squad Beta (AI) 225 pts

(1 Champion w/ Lightning Claw, 1 Chainfist, 1 Heavy Flamer, 1 Combi-Flamer, Icon of Khorne)

[Corpse.]

I wouldn't say unplayable, I was just trying to add as many terminators and oblits as possible to the 2k concept.

 

Could easily take out a few terminators and oblits to fit your taste jeske.

[Massawyrm]

It's not unplayable at all, I have a 2000pt 30 terminator build that works precisely this way. Is it effective? Well, I've been asked not to play it in a fairly large, liberal 40k town (outside of Apocalypse play that is). Fortunately when you're rocking 30 terminators, it's not hard to draw attention away from your limited amount of scoring troops which, let's face it, better be Plague Marines. You pretty much have to play with only 3 Oblits, however. This build doesn't lend itself to Oblit spam. To be effective, Oblits either need to drop plasma templates or get into close range - neither of which you are bound to do much off when you have 30 charging termies. Take those 225pts and drop in reaper autocannons, fists and icons. Make sure to give the scoring troops rhinos so they can rush objectives at the last minute and get an extra layer of protection from the hate cunning players will throw at them.

 

Of course the real danger here is that with termie units that large, opponents are apt to dig into cover or force you to assault in a manner that would cause at least one termie to cross difficult terrain, dropping your I to 1 and negating the advantage of power weapons. Just something to be mindful of.

[minigun762]

I originally mentioned it as an offhand comment but the more I think about it, the more I like the idea of the "Reapercide" squad as a replacement for a Dakka Predator.

 

Its slightly more expensive (115 vs 100) with less maximum fire power (TL AC + 2 TL Bolters vs AC and 2 Heavy Bolters) which makes it sound like a bad idea BUT

1) It doesn't use up Heavy slots

2) Its actually more mobile then the Predator

3) Its better at being assaulted

4) It can't be shaken/stunned

5) It has the option of deepstriking and targeting side armor

[Corpse.]

Make it even and since a dakkapredator has no melee weapons, consider the havoc launcher for a dead even 115 vs 115.

 

You have AP value in power weapons, deep strike is a must to get close but you lose an average of 1.5 turns in firing, and wind up in assault most of the other times.

 

4 bolter shots are the equal to 3 heavy bolter shots. Average will be 1.32 rerolls, thus its another 1/3rd more heavy bolter by default because of the reroll. Considering the reroll autocannon shots, and already being close its another 1/3rd autocannon. So, its close on the firepower to 2hb and 1ac.

 

3 Terminators can be as tough as a dreadnought or cannot be compared if the right enemy crosses their path. Predator goes on range, but against an enemy aggressive army that is very mobile and loves short range, this is can be either taken advantage of or not at all. Against a enemy ranged army, the terminators are far superior. Deep strike gets you close. Tougher to take them out considering the 5++ and 2+ saves for being close (you should be aggressive as usual)

 

However, you can tie them in melee and be no pushover if they charge you.

 

 

Also terminators of 5 models and under are heavy support options by default because of taking a land raider transport.............

 

Two TLLC predators costs 210 points. You get the TLHB and the super armor for just 10 points more, and its one vehicle for both the drawbacks and benefits that inquires.

 

It was also discussed that 2 TLLC predators are equal to three obliterators lascannons because of the rerolling. So do that comparison spectrum in contrast to terminators being the opposite of obliterators.

 

Hard to imagine all those things are so damn cost effective aye?

[minigun762]

The other option is to replace the Heavy Flamer in the larger squads with the Reaper. Considering you have a squad that runs around 200 points, the 20 point increase is less of a concern at that level.

 

While I love the bargain price and killing power of the Heavy Flamer, I feel that the current meta game really pushes the need for reliable anti-transport firepower and few weapons are as good at killing transports then the Reaper.

 

vs AV10 = 1.18 hits

vs AV11 = 0.89 hits

vs AV12 = 0.59 hits

vs AV13 = 0.30 hits (glancing only)

 

and just for comparison, a Lascannon

vs AV10 = 0.66 hit

vs AV11 = 0.55 hits

vs AV12 = 0.44 hits

vs AV13 = 0.33 hits

 

But I guess it begs the question, is the anti-tank firepower of the Reaper needed when you're packing Combi-Melta/Plasma and Fists?

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I see the reaper as being useful in squads that are going to be around for longer. It has the range advantage over combi weapons. If you footslog you want one for sure. If you deepstrike in and pop a tank with your combis, then you have the reaper for if the next target isnt in combi range or if you had to use all your combis. It also does have worthwhile anti infantry against non-meq.

[sword brethren]

I see the reaper as being useful in squads that are going to be around for longer. It has the range advantage over combi weapons. If you footslog you want one for sure. If you deepstrike in and pop a tank with your combis, then you have the reaper for if the next target isnt in combi range or if you had to use all your combis. It also does have worthwhile anti infantry against non-meq.

 

 

im a massive fan of the reaper, i have found it to be much more effective and can be used in more situations that its flamer counterpart. i still think combis are a must though, making my termys mighty expensive

[Drudge Dreadnought]

The problem with the reaper is that it simply isn't worth the 25 points. Its useful and versatile, but the cost price is just silly. It should be 10-15 pts cheaper, or allow 2 in a 5 man squad.

[minigun762]

The problem with the reaper is that it simply isn't worth the 25 points. Its useful and versatile, but the cost price is just silly. It should be 10-15 pts cheaper, or allow 2 in a 5 man squad.

 

I 100% agree, especially in light of how cheap the Heavy Flamer is.

 

But I wonder if it is still worth paying the premium price for it when you are using a larger squad of Terminators.

 

Lets see two squads.

 

Squad 1

6 Terminators, 3 Combi-Melta, 2 Combi-Plasma, 1 Heavy Flamer, 1 Chain Fist = 225 points

 

Squad 2

6 Terminators, 3 Combi-Melta, 2 Combi-Plasma, 1 Reaper Autocannon, 1 Chain Fist = 245 points

 

Squad 2 is about 9% more expensive overall but has alot more threat past 12" or so. Making the assumption you deploy your Terminators in the back/side field, you should have fairly easy shots to rear/side armor.

Plus once you fire your Combi's, you have alot of bullet sponges for the Reaper Terminator.

[Possessed Marine]

Squad 2 is about 9% more expensive overall but has alot more threat past 12" or so. Making the assumption you deploy your Terminators in the back/side field, you should have fairly easy shots to rear/side armor.

Plus once you fire your Combi's, you have alot of bullet sponges for the Reaper Terminator.

+1 to minigun... am a huge fan of reaper, but as said, could be a little cheaper