What makes Space Wolves good?

[Frontline989]

I've kept hearing about how much better SW are with the new codex than other PA chapters. How is this so? I know we have some good stuff but what makes us that much better than say Ultramarines or Blood Angels? I ask because I want to make sure im not ignoring some aspect of our codex that makes our chapter shine.

[DV8]

Considering that the only Space Marine codices written for 5th Edition are Codex: Space Marines and Codex: Space Wolves, I will not consider any of the rest on the same level.

 

What makes Space Wolves "better" than vanilla Space Marines? Nothing. Both armies have their strengths and their weaknesses, and are different books because the armies play differently.

 

Anybody who decides to build and play Space Marines because they've been told (or have arbitrarily decided) that Space Wolves are "teh shizz" and "teh bees that is the knees" are just fooling themselves and are probably bandwagoners jumping on the next "uber-army".

 

 

DV8

[Pavement Artist]

Its a general complaint that the newer codexes far out strip the older books in terms of fancy toys and abilities. It's certainly true that the Space wolves got a shot in the arm with the new book but i think with the hindsight of a couple of months worth of playing, most people can agree that the army is far from unbeatable. My personal record with the wolves hasn't been stellar (player error im sure though) and a few of my bigger losses have been from Dark angels and Blood angels.

 

We've been giving some pretty shiny units like the thunderwolf cavalry and of course our psychic powers have been ramped up considerably, it still hasn't made our army insurmountable. I think the main problem when comparing our book to the older chapters is that it looks so shiney and new that it only serves to highlight the problems with the older books. Chapters like the Dark angels and Blood angels have been make do and mending with their books for a while now and every time each army is updated, the fraying around the edges of their own lists begins to show that much more. This is personally, why i think people are inclined to say that the space wolves are now superior rather than seeing that our update is simply the first in long line of updates and in some ways, our book is serving as a model for the other chapters who will be brought into 5th ed.

 

Just you wait, in a years time or so, people will be decrying the state of the Blood angels or something like that

[Firedrake28]

Well, let's see.

 

Bolters, bolt pistols and close combat weapons on basic Troops, plus Counter-Attack and Acute Senses for one point cheaper than a vanilla Tactical Marine.

 

HQ choices that are customizable and highly effective. Wolf Lords and Wolf Guard Battle Leaders have tons of very cool and very powerful options. Sagas add to this.

 

Interesting special characters that are good but not compulsory when building a competitive list.

 

The list goes on.

 

Mostly, I think, people think the Space Wolves are so awesome because there's an awful lot than they can do that other Marine Chapters can't, whereas there are a smaller number of things that other Marine Chapters can do that the Space Wolves miss out on. Because of this, it's easy to see why people would think of Space Wolves as "Space Marines Deluxe" or similar.

[Darkseer]

I wouldn't say Space Wolves are better, just different.

 

However, they are one of the armies that do well in Noob-Hammer.

 

Remember when you were a kid at high school and at lunchtime everyone would throw their painted models down, play really badly, charge towards each other and get slaughtered.

 

That's Noob-Hammer.

 

It's hardly surprising that Chaos and Space Wolves used to do so well back in 2nd edition...

[Grimmwulf]

We are a lot better than all the other chapters because our beloved Primarch Leman Russ was so badass that no one, except the allfather himself maybe, could compare to his badassness.

 

 

then we have beer, beards, and the craziest haircuts. And we do what we want even if we have to kill <insert anything here> to achieve it. Which other chapter can offer that?

 

 

Ok, to be serious, ruleswise I don't think that SW are better than the vanilla Codex at all. You can not really compare them with each other, because they both do what they do, and they do it good. For everyone who says Space Wolves have the better rules you can probably find omeone else who says the vanilla codex is better.

[Lord Howland Greywolf]

Because we're Space Wolves, DUH!

 

But serously though, we are better in some ways and worse in others (I find it hard ot play defensively with wolves due to the lack of heavy weapons in troops choices).

[Hfran Morkai]

I see the advantages each codex offers, to me none is truly better, I have a fondness of the wolves though, then again because I've been with them for so long.

 

And to those who say winning with the wolves is simple, have you ever actually used them? Tactics are required, you can't just throw them forward, you need a mind and need to adapt.

 

The Space Wolves offer a more aggressive army with cheap troops (too cheap in my opinion, true grit was better...) which are well suited to holding and taking objectives and an expansive character system, that's where we incur a lot of cost, it's tempting to ramp up your lord into an unstoppable killing machine which can be a bad idea in general. Our scouts are badass with the BEL and tooling them up to suit any occasion. Wolf Priests are awesome because rather than re-rolls on the first turn of combat, it's preferred enemy against a unit type of your choice. Blood Claws of any variety are fun to play with, if not the most cost effective choice in game.

 

Codex marines have some nifty stuff too though, combat tactics is pretty useful, being able to break from a combat you have no chance of winning. Alternatively you can trade that in for some pretty nifty rules, twin linking anyone? The free heavy and special is good, especially when combined with a razorback and combat-squads, those ensure that you can have four scoring units from your two troops choices, two of which can be geared for holding, with the heavy weapon, and the more aggressive special and sergeant squad. Codex marines also get access to camo-cloaks for scouts, making them really nasty sniper-wise. Ironclads are one of my favourite models out there, two dread close combat weapons is awesome! Also the LSS is a nice bit of kit. Command squads with an apothecary! The ability to keep your captain safer with feel no pain is invaluable.

 

Each codex has good points in comparison to the other, but the most important point for me with the wolves is the fun we have with them, modelling them and I find I get a real feel for that guy swinging his axe.

 

Yes, I've named all my characters, even thought about naming all my Wolf Guard as well but that's like thirty models...

[Kay]

Because while the rest of sm chapter spend their free time meditating, training and applying sacred oils and litanies to their gear, space wolves spend theirs in the great hall, singing, drinking bear and telling stories, and when the killing come, they do it as fine as the rest.

 

Its all about that.

[Hfran Morkai]

Because while the rest of sm chapter spend their free time meditating, training and applying sacred oils and litanies to their gear, space wolves spend theirs in the great hall, singing, drinking bear and telling stories, and when the killing come, they do it as fine as the rest.

 

Its all about that.

 

Drinking bear? That's quite an accomplishment!

 

Space Wolves DO NOT spend all their time feasting, they do indeed train and meditate but they know how to relax as well.

 

The feasting is normally on the eve of a campaign being launched, coming home from a campaign or some other important event. Whereas other chapters would be marching round on a parade ground, not saying either one is better.

[rodf]

We have a really awesome general that plays Space Wolves at our LGS , he used to win pretty much every game, used to get alot of tips from him, but since the new codex now i seen him losing over 70 percent of matches i have witness. really the codex lost a good unit , the option to take single attack bikes, i understand not getting the speeder storm or the iron clad, but the bike you already get in bike squads. so why not allow them as singles. the psychic powers are really circumstantial and not as toolie as the space marines. I like plasmas on my none tank hunting units, having two meltas for 5 points is not a big deal. the codex to me at a glance seem to get a bunch of hero hammers, and a really expensive cavalry unit. i am not a wolf player, but i think that wolves taken as extras for your heroes did not used to take up space, now they do and it makes it hard to take anything but the crusader land raider to get a decent side unit.

[Kay]

I neither train, nor meditate. I just drink beer. Hell, i dont even care for humanity, im just here for the beer hehehehe.

[Hfran Morkai]

We have a really awesome general that plays Space Wolves at our LGS , he used to win pretty much every game, used to get alot of tips from him, but since the new codex now i seen him losing over 70 percent of matches i have witness. really the codex lost a good unit , the option to take single attack bikes, i understand not getting the speeder storm or the iron clad, but the bike you already get in bike squads. so why not allow them as singles.

 

It may well be adapting to a new codex, who knows? We've been set in our ways for a long time, hence why I was peeved at losing two power weapons per pack, I liked that unit.

 

I understand the Storm and Ironclad too from a game perspective, though I think the Ironclad would really appeal to the Wolves fluff-wise. I think the reason is because they happen to be Blood Claws and prefer to hit things rather than shoot them so one can be attached as support but having them as a squadron doesn't really fit the fluff.

[Mal]

Because while the rest of sm chapter spend their free time meditating, training and applying sacred oils and litanies to their gear, space wolves spend theirs in the great hall, singing, drinking bear and telling stories, and when the killing come, they do it as fine as the rest.

 

Its all about that.

 

Drinking bear? That's quite an accomplishment!

 

Space Wolves DO NOT spend all their time feasting, they do indeed train and meditate but they know how to relax as well.

 

The feasting is normally on the eve of a campaign being launched, coming home from a campaign or some other important event. Whereas other chapters would be marching round on a parade ground, not saying either one is better.

 

Pfft leave the parade ground cr&p for the Guard, the rest of us spend our time either meditating or training, never a moment put to waste in the Emperors name.

[Mammon]

I'd say the reason why Space Wolves shine brighter than other power armored armies out there is that we play them!

 

Aside from that little but no less critical fact is that all perceptions of tactical superiority of our armies is entirely due to the ever present intimidation factor that we exude on our enemies.

 

....Also, our beer has such a high alc. per vol. content that it will kill a normal human if he tries to drink it. That...is...awesome!

[Night Runner]

I think the question to ask is what makes a good tabletop wargame player. Would a good player use a cheesy army in a cheesy way just to win or limit himself to play with tactical acumen and strategy. Does a good player need a strictly laid out codex to keep him from power-playing. If good gamers used C:SM and C:SW in a balanced and fair way, keeping in mind the background fluff and a bit of respect towards his adversary, in the spirit of fair play would codex creep really be such an issue. When I read threads like these I'm glad I play mostly Epic.

[Hfran Morkai]

I think the question to ask is what makes a good tabletop wargame player. Would a good player use a cheesy army in a cheesy way just to win or limit himself to play with tactical acumen and strategy. Does a good player need a strictly laid out codex to keep him from power-playing. If good gamers used C:SM and C:SW in a balanced and fair way, keeping in mind the background fluff and a bit of respect towards his adversary, in the spirit of fair play would codex creep really be such an issue. When I read threads like these I'm glad I play mostly Epic.

 

Good question!

 

I don't think my lists can really be seen as competitive anymore, I have twenty two guys who can hold objectives in my new list, compared to thirty in the old ones. Small packs make life more interesting.

 

I play to enjoy the game, I liked an aggressive style of play so the wolves appealed to me. However I'm not a win at all costs guy, give me an opponent and if we have fun I'm happy.

 

For instance in my last game it was Wolf vs Wolf and fairly close, I managed to snipe Ragnar with a lascannon which amused me no end.

 

But the best thing was the final battle between his Grey Hunter pack hiding in a fortress and unleashing fire into me, then he assaulted and it took three of my units to finish his one off.

 

Now that was fun.

 

Alternatively against a marine army I got my butt firmly handed to me, sure he was a good player and had a nice well built list but it wasn't created to maximise effectiveness.

[SamaNagol]

Because their Troops are better for less

[bravelybravesirrobin]

Because their Troops are better for less

 

People really underestimate combat squads and combat tactics don't they.

 

Combat squads lets you switch from an army with twice as many scoring units for 2 mission into an army with half the kill points for the third mission. Marines can easily put 8-10 scoring units on the table without any loss of function. Most other armies have a max of 6.

 

SW in contrast usually average around 4 with maybe 5 in a big game.

 

Counter attack and the chainsword make us better in close combat true but combat tactics lets you slip out of cc with big unbeatable threats like dreadnoughts or possibly avoid cc all together giving you more chances to shoot.

 

That incidentally is what Space Marines are good at, moving and shooting with some counter assault units. Space Wolves are good ate assault and close range shooting with a few fire support units. If you want to play marines as an assault army then obviously space wolves will look betetr to you. How about playing marines as they should be played and see how that gets you.

 

Plus don't like combat tactics? You can swap it for stubborn, outflank, fleet of foot or twin-linking/master crafting every thunder hammer, flamer, heavy flamer, meltagun and multi-melta in your army. For Free! The latter two powers are so obviously amazing that how anyone can give us cheek about "counter-attack" is beyond me.

 

 

 

 

 

The obvious reason people think Space Wolves are better is because we get axes and everyone knows axes are better than swords.

[Night Runner]

I think you have laid out an excellent point there bravelybravesirrobin. The C:SM has a flexibility in 'combat style approach' on an army level that C:SW does not have. SW do have a lot of flexibility in arming its WG to fit circumstances, and cheaper and better armed troop choices; but C:SM just does it in a more tactical way in order to fit the situation. One thing I truly envy C:SM is their ability to use bikers as troop choices that can score (IIRC). I always use a unit of Swiftclaws (sometimes two in games from 1500 to 2000pts) and it would help out greatly if they were scoring, but you can't have everything.

[Grey Mage]

Ahh but most people arent interested in the tactical finesse that combat tactics can give them access to- instead, they want sledgehammers.

 

I mean look at how many lists run dual landraiders at 1500pts, with TDA in one of them! Or Nob Bikerz! as their staple.... no really "finesse" there. Tactical Squads arent meant to be sledgehammers, and so they dont work well in that role.... and so people complain.

 

All those Chapter Tactics, including Combat Tactics, unlock new ways of playing and wonderful strategies to give you a small edge here and there- Counter-attack comes up more often, in some games, than those do... but its just there, period. We dont get to switch it out *Id love fleet Grey Hunters, but no one would give them to me, ever :)*. Whens the last time you used counter-attack against tau? But Fleet? Mastercrafted Multimeltas? Stubborn? Yeah... those will come in handy against alot of opponents, and are balanced out by the limits of a tac squad.

 

BBSR has rather well covered the Combat Squads ability... wich is amazing.

 

Then you look at acute senses... wich is wonderful, but balanced out a bit by the limited range of our squads for the most part.

 

Then note that we took a huge hit in wargear prices with the update. Everything got more expensive, by about 20-50% in most cases. So we get a few breaks on our troops prices and free secondairy weapons *sounds just like C:SM doesnt it?*. If wed stayed at 18pts a GH the army would have been seriously underpowered and youd see ALOT more "wolfwing" around"... of course, that would mean the WG would be 25pts a model too.... and then you have an army that has few if any competitive options. While the tournament scene isnt everything, it can be a good test of how an armys balance rates- and this, well it would come out as "not good".

[Night Runner]

You make a very strong argument there Grey Mage, and I agree wholeheartedly (Night Runner urges the Wolves into a standing ovation). It's a pity though that most people aren't interested in the tactical finesse that combat tactics can give them access to. Maybe it's a sign of wargaming immaturity. Before coming into Sci-Fi and Fantasy I use to play historical exclusively, and come to think of it, this approach shaped how I play in 40K. Most gamers begin wargaming with 40K and Warhammer and maybe a bit of the problem lies here. Maybe this is why a lot of people just want sledgehammers.

 

I also see your point on tournaments being a good testing ground for balancing armies. In truth I've come to see it myself in reading the tournament batreps from Littlebitz. So your definitely right there. I'm a campaign person, and I play out campaigns on a narrative, mostly in Epic (with smaller missions in 40K) with a very mature gaming group (25 years and above). So luckily my gaming doesn't really focus on how balanced a codex is, since none of us is into power playing or taking advantage of loopholes or uber-powerful characters. Don't get me wrong, I'd prefer a balanced codex and I think overall with C:SW we have one, but even if it wasn't I'd downgrade it myself with house rules in order not to upset the campaign.

 

Thanks for your insight.

[Niiai]

The biggest diference comes down to the fact that we can't drop back from melee at will, and that we can't splitt up. (We also don't get a heavy weapon.)

 

We have more flexebilaty to getting melee weapons into it because of the WG. We also have Counter attack.

 

We don't have scouts, but then we have a better mellee troop.

 

Oer leaders are very similar.

[JCarter]

I agree that tourneys aren't the ne plus ultra of gaming; however, they are a good indication of flexibility. Not the flexibility that comes with being able to tailor an army to do well against a type of opponent, but the ability to use a single army list against any type of opponent. C:SM armies are more flexible in the second sense. All those features mentioned above make it so. C:SW armies are more susceptible to being placed in an unwinnable position by the type of army faced and the luck of the roll (or assignment) in the scenario and terrain. The proof of the pudding? Watch tournament results. Big tournaments, not small tournaments against a limited type of armies. If the C:SW is "overpowered", then SW will start to show up consistently at or near the top. If this doesn't happen, then you will know that C:SW is not tournament competetive and is dependent too heavily on scenario, terrain and army size.

 

At the top level of competition, for example, SW apparently still suffer from the difficulties of reaching quickly a position to influence the far end of the board, especially in spearhead deployments. The use of pods mitigates this, but really hurts if the scenario is annihilation and all the kill points available from already immobilized pods. The larger number of long-range heavy weapons available to an SM army helps them here. SM are superior in scenarios involving multiple objectives (5 0r 6) because of the larger number of scoring units using combat squads.

 

The question of the tactical ability of the player is not an issue here, because in comparing codices, equal skill on the part of the players must be assumed. We'll just have to see how it comes out in the wash.

[Frontline989]

So from the responces here it seems most dont believe Space Wolves are in any way superior to other PA. Thats odd seeing as how everyone one these forums were reporting that players in their shops were decrying SW as overpowered and how everyone was talking about using the SW codex for their BA, BT, or DIY what have you chapter. It doesnt really matter to me since I chose SW because I like the fluff behind the army and the look of the models but it seems their is some conflicting information floating around.