Hidden Wolf Posted November 29, 2009 Share Posted November 29, 2009 I just fought a ork player today and it was 1500pts (me) and 2000 (him) i was wondering if i could use some help he had: Appox 4 defkoppters 10 bikes 3 looted wagons 2 12 man ork squads in trucks 1 big ork squad and a nobz squad with a truck i had: HQ: WP (100) Rune Priest, LL, Jaws of the World Wolf, COTS(110) TROOPS: Grey Hunters x10 w/ PG, Power Weapon, Plasma Gun, rhino, HKM (220) Grey Hunters x10 w/ PG, Power Weapon, Plasma Gun, rhino, HKM (220) Grey Hunters x10 w/ PG, Power Weapon, Plasma Gun (175) Grey Hunters x10 w/ PG, Power Weapon, Plasma Gun (175) ELITE: Dreadnaught (105) Dreadnaught (105) HEAVY: Vindicator w/ HKM (125) Predator w/ TL LC, side LCs HKM (175) 1495 pts all i want is some tactics maby some army tweeks he likes to drive up fast then dump squads down and wait for his main squadz to hit me in behind the first wave and it was a draw Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185986-tips-for-killing-orks/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Herald of Desolation Posted November 29, 2009 Share Posted November 29, 2009 I'd say your first problem, right off the bat was you forgot 500 pts. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185986-tips-for-killing-orks/#findComment-2199226 Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokeiSHP Posted November 29, 2009 Share Posted November 29, 2009 The 500 pts not withstanding, there are a few things that leap out right away. Plasma Rifles = great against MEQ and TEQ. They are not great when they are shooting 6pt Orks. In a word, you want flamers. More than twice the job most likely with 0 cost. If you are looking for AP to deal with FnP Nobz, then you want a Meltagun. Instakills, is assault, and doesn't blow up on you. Next up, Orks are very close combat oriented. They have a blizzard of inaccurate shooting, but they are going to be looking to put you in close combat and there is little avoiding it, so you want to make sure you are doing the charging instead of the other way around. Str 3 vs Str 4 they get from Furious charge is an amazing difference. Thin the ranks with flamers on the way in. Take WG, give them power fists. Either lose the extra special weapon or run your units on foot, but get those WG in there. You also may want to consider MotW, but mileage does vary. Dreadnoughts = Get Hvy Flamers. Even better at killing Orks. HKMs... I would ditch these. There are so many better places to put your points. Consider Long Fangs with Heavy Bolters or missile launchers. They are a fairly cheap fire platform that should help thin the ranks of oncoming squads. Basically the rule for shooting at Orks is that templates are usually your friends and unless you need to kill FnP models, cheaper high AP weapons are perfectly suitable to the task. In close combat, regular power weapons lose their lustre slightly (unless FnP is in play) due to the poor save for a standard Ork however Powerfists are always useful thanks to their high Str. Finally, if you need to prioritize shooting on Turn 1 for your Pred, kill that Nobz truck. The regular Trukk Boyz should be easily handled in CC and those Nobz won't like being under the Vindicator's gun. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185986-tips-for-killing-orks/#findComment-2199262 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madsakre Posted November 29, 2009 Share Posted November 29, 2009 500 points is a lot. But orks are some of the easiest enemies we can meet with our speciality. Next time try and bring 500 points too and see what happens ^^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185986-tips-for-killing-orks/#findComment-2199269 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Howland Greywolf Posted November 29, 2009 Share Posted November 29, 2009 Well I would change your phsykic powers. Though Jaws is a good power, I find it difficult to use as it really is very situational, but when it worls it works great. Living Lightning is far better against orks (light vehicles and low armour saves, its good at killing lootas which will ruin your day if you're not carful). Personally though I would take Murderous Hurracane. 3d6 S3 hits are not to be sniffed at, especially with their low armour saves, and the whole count as moving through terrain thing is a godsend. It slows them down, while potentionaly killing 1 in every 6 which could be a special weapon, and gets you more time to shoot at them (and you have CA anyway so it dosnt really matter if they charge you), and it makes them strike at I1, so your PF will always get to attack. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185986-tips-for-killing-orks/#findComment-2199281 Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokeiSHP Posted November 29, 2009 Share Posted November 29, 2009 Well I would change your phsykic powers. Though Jaws is a good power, I find it difficult to use as it really is very situational, but when it worls it works great. Living Lightning is far better against orks (light vehicles and low armour saves, its good at killing lootas which will ruin your day if you're not carful). Personally though I would take Murderous Hurracane. 3d6 S3 hits are not to be sniffed at, especially with their low armour saves, and the whole count as moving through terrain thing is a godsend. It slows them down, while potentionaly killing 1 in every 6 which could be a special weapon, and gets you more time to shoot at them (and you have CA anyway so it dosnt really matter if they charge you), and it makes them strike at I1, so your PF will always get to attack. While I'm personally not sold on JotWW of MH, they could both be effective against Orks. I will say that if nothing else, the thing that puts JotWW into the great category against Orks is simply the ability to snipe the Power Claw Nob out of the squad prior to hand to hand. Counter Attack helps with Ork charges, but people rely on it too much. You still deal with all the extra attacks and they are simply better on the charge thanks to FC. CA makes us take a charge better, it doesn't negate the advantage of being the charger instead of the chargee. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185986-tips-for-killing-orks/#findComment-2199287 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Howland Greywolf Posted November 29, 2009 Share Posted November 29, 2009 True, BUT, it does however mean they have to take dangerous terrain to move towards AND assult you, that can kill a lot of orks (9 is about adverage of a 30 boy unit) add in the turn you spend rapid firing them (if they dont make it that is) and the 3d6 hits, that can account for a few dead orks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185986-tips-for-killing-orks/#findComment-2199292 Share on other sites More sharing options...
stinkenheim Posted November 29, 2009 Share Posted November 29, 2009 never let an ork charge you. if you charge them they will find it much, muc harder to shift your units as they need 5s to wound and have fewer attacks. they may not be great, and you may have counter attack so are just as effective when charging/being charged but an ork improves his wounds by about half when they charge as they gain extra attcks and extra strength. its simple tactics to realise you should minimize any advantage they would gain from charging. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185986-tips-for-killing-orks/#findComment-2199460 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacefrisian Posted November 29, 2009 Share Posted November 29, 2009 I've played against ork today. That Runepriest will do a lot. 1st target the Truck. Hit it good with Living lightning to get those Orks out. After the Orks close make the following unit target priority Nr 1 for the Jaws. -Nob Painboy -Nob with Powerclaws (within orkboy units) Once these are gone it gets a whole lot easier. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185986-tips-for-killing-orks/#findComment-2199499 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravelybravesirrobin Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 I just fought a ork player today and it was 1500pts (me) and 2000 (him) i was wondering if i could use some help he had:Appox 4 defkoppters 10 bikes 3 looted wagons 2 12 man ork squads in trucks 1 big ork squad and a nobz squad with a truck i had: HQ: WP (100) Rune Priest, LL, Jaws of the World Wolf, COTS(110) TROOPS: Grey Hunters x10 w/ PG, Power Weapon, Plasma Gun, rhino, HKM (220) Grey Hunters x10 w/ PG, Power Weapon, Plasma Gun, rhino, HKM (220) Grey Hunters x10 w/ PG, Power Weapon, Plasma Gun (175) Grey Hunters x10 w/ PG, Power Weapon, Plasma Gun (175) ELITE: Dreadnaught (105) Dreadnaught (105) HEAVY: Vindicator w/ HKM (125) Predator w/ TL LC, side LCs HKM (175) 1495 pts all i want is some tactics maby some army tweeks he likes to drive up fast then dump squads down and wait for his main squadz to hit me in behind the first wave and it was a draw Well done for managing a draw against an army with a 500+pt advantage, that takes a certain amount of skill. If you can do that it doesn't seem like you need many tips vs orks. But I can't help but critique your list because to my eyes it looks absolutely horrible! HQ is fine Grey Hunters have no power fists! And only plasma guns! Change it up man, your packs are boring and cookie cutter and packs should be distinct. And no MotW or Wolf banners. Seriously powerfists are amazing weapons and will often kill as many guys in one round of cc as the rest of the entire squad. Plus they are your only realistic defence against walkers and wraithlords. Every squad that is likely to be in cc needs one. In contrast power weapons only provide you with a slight edge against MEQ that is so slight as to be not worth the points in my view. Whilst plasma guns are fine guns some meltaguns would go a long way to shoring up your lackluster anti-tank, especially in the rhino packs and some flamers would help you deal with those ork hordes. MotW is a versatile upgrade that helps you vs hordes and MEQ and for the same cost as the power weapon! I would always take it in preference to the PW. Hunter Killers are a waste of points. Drop them from everything and you soon have enough spare points to pay for a dedicated anti-tank unit like a land speeder. Dreads need extra armour. Pred with the auto-cannon on top is both cheaper and better than the twin-lascannons. As for tactics for beating orks, firstly I don't really understand what you mean by 10bikes with 3 looted wagons? Care to elaborate. His army is a speed freaks force and very fast. Use whatever long raneg shooting you have (basically the pred and living lightning, not a lot sadly) to drop the trukks first to deny him the use of them. Special attention needs to be paid to the nobz trukk as letting them get into cc will doom your hunter packs. Once he's slowed down use your decent mid-range firepower (dreads, plasma guns and vindicator) to take out his other faster stuff (especially the bikes) and whittle down the ork mobs that are now footslogging, again especially the nobz. Hold back and shoot him and then try and use your rhinos to get the charge on his big mob (nothing drops a big mob like a decent cc unit charging into it). Frankly his ork army isn't very good. It's very small for 2k lacks shooting and basically relies on speed and 1 or 2 decent assault units. Deny him his speed to give yourself a chance to shoot those assault units (bikes and nobz) and you should be fine. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185986-tips-for-killing-orks/#findComment-2199947 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 For your next 500pts I reccomend: 5x Longfangs- 4 MLs, Flamer- 120pts. 2x Rhino and switching out two squads Plasmarifles to Meltaguns- net 60pts. 2x Heavy Flamer+MM Speeders- 130pts. Extra Armor and Heavy Flamer on each Dread- 50pts. Bike for your Rune Priest- 35pts *since he has no where to go really* 3x Swiftclaws- Powerfist, Flamer- 105pts. Upgrading one Plasmrifle squad to a Powerfist- 10pts. 500pts even. Doubles your ranged fire power and your speed, adds survivability to your dreads and gives you a nice cleanup unit/bodygaurd with your Rune Priest. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185986-tips-for-killing-orks/#findComment-2200006 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hfran Morkai Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 I don't see why people say we can't have our packs equipped the same. Just because codex marines follow the big book means they can have identical squads but similar Wolf packs are a no go? I thought they would take whatever's needed to get the job done, regardless of whether or not their buddies are doing the same. I mean we can't have identical HQ choices for example, isn't that enough individuality? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185986-tips-for-killing-orks/#findComment-2200009 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 I don't see why people say we can't have our packs equipped the same. Just because codex marines follow the big book means they can have identical squads but similar Wolf packs are a no go? I thought they would take whatever's needed to get the job done, regardless of whether or not their buddies are doing the same. I mean we can't have identical HQ choices for example, isn't that enough individuality? Im not saying we cant, I just think its silly and lessens the tactical flexability of the whole list. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185986-tips-for-killing-orks/#findComment-2200024 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hfran Morkai Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 Im not saying we cant, I just think its silly and lessens the tactical flexability of the whole list. I wasn't referring to you Mage, it's just I've seen it a lot, even with just two packs the same, people say it doesn't fit the fluff, nowhere does it mention packs being equipped differently yet we have our nice HQ fluff. The packs I use happen to be good at what they do. I'm going to post a list with two pairs of units and I'll likely get someone telling me it's not Wolfy, well to me it is because they'll do what they need to get done. Just needed a bit of a rant in general guys, sorry. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185986-tips-for-killing-orks/#findComment-2200108 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravelybravesirrobin Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 2 packs equipped the same is fine and IMHO sensible from a gaming perspective (pair up everything you can realistically do so, it makes your army much easier to use on the tabletop and resilient to losing one pack) but 4 packs all equipped the same! Its boring. It lacks flexibility on the tabletop. And no IMHO it isn't fluffy. Space Wolves are personal and highly individualistic. A pack is not a squad, they will never switch out members and they will not usually switch out equipment. Rather they will grow together into a highly personalised unit that is tighter for it but much more idosyncratic than a tactical squad. 4 packs equipped exactly the same just looks boring and feels unwolfy to me. It isn't hard to do some minor changes (2 of them get banners, the other two don't, etc) and it makes a world of difference. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185986-tips-for-killing-orks/#findComment-2200129 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hfran Morkai Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 2 packs equipped the same is fine and IMHO sensible from a gaming perspective (pair up everything you can realistically do so, it makes your army much easier to use on the tabletop and resilient to losing one pack) but 4 packs all equipped the same! My apologies good sir, it was not even directly aimed at you. I've just seen people criticize someone for having two units the same, which is what I call redundancy as you appear to as well, hence two Vindicators (though that still feels mean and I've not even used one yet...) work better than one. You might have a point about the switching out of weapons there, I'm going to do a fair bit more delving into our background to have a looksie for other comments about the individuality. I'll admit I have four identical packs at Great Company level (10,000 points) but I might mix those up with different wolf guard options. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185986-tips-for-killing-orks/#findComment-2200142 Share on other sites More sharing options...
stinkenheim Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 truth be told i equip every single unit of grey hunters exactly the same, melta, flamer, banner, power fist.... that way i know they can take on anything during the game witha degree of success. i also know exactly how every unit in my force will perform against angainst anything i am likely to face. to me it makes more sense rather than having several different units all with differing equipment and different abilites/roles on the table. +edit+ it may be boring to you but i spend alot of time converting and painting my models, i would rather not have to convert up seperate special weapons troops just to appease someone who feels that my 3 grey hunter units are 'boring' and 'unfluffy' because they are equiped with the same weaponry. i've played this way since the previous edition and its only this codex which has pushed the 'space wolf heroes are individuals and hate copying other people' idea. but hey your money your game, just don't expect everyone to see it from your side Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185986-tips-for-killing-orks/#findComment-2200155 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCarter Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 I can't see taking what I feel to be less effective choices because of some authors' "fluff." My wolvesw want to win. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185986-tips-for-killing-orks/#findComment-2200411 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacefrisian Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 The no same comno of weapons is kind of pointless if you ask me. With only 1 item of 5 points you could make 3 models doing the same but still having different combos of items. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185986-tips-for-killing-orks/#findComment-2200579 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 I can't see taking what I feel to be less effective choices because of some authors' "fluff." My wolvesw want to win. Flexability and options= win. If your squad has a weakness, and they are all the same, then they all have the same weakness. Mixing it up a bit means the army as a whole is more flexable, and has strengths you can place as you need- like a finely alloyed steel. While there are options and ways of doing this outside of your troops choices, and those should also be pursued, troops are one of the most effective parts of our army, and well priced for all that- so when you weaken your troops, you weaken your army. A weakness found and exploited, that can be repetitively exploited throughout your army, means your opponent has to use less tactical acumen in order to counter your squads... and soon youll be held off while your opponent drinks tea or waits for pizza. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185986-tips-for-killing-orks/#findComment-2200788 Share on other sites More sharing options...
stinkenheim Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 i agree with you their grey mage, which is why i make my grey hunter squads flexible enough to deal with most things. no obvious weaknesses for my opponents to exploit and no need for several squads all designed to deal with a different situation. we may not agree but hey, thats what makes this game fun ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185986-tips-for-killing-orks/#findComment-2200922 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 Fair enough, and if it works for you there must be merit in it right? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185986-tips-for-killing-orks/#findComment-2200943 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravelybravesirrobin Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 I can't see taking what I feel to be less effective choices because of some authors' "fluff." My wolvesw want to win. This is known as "power gaming". Not always looked upon kindly in some parts. Not that I have a problem with it. I'm not standing over people forcing them to play the Space Wolves as I see them I'm just stating my own opinion and hopefully arguing my reasons why I hold it. I think that finding a nice balance between a "fluffy" army and an army that will kick ass on the tabletop is ultimately more rewarding. Others disagree. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185986-tips-for-killing-orks/#findComment-2201064 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hidden Wolf Posted December 1, 2009 Author Share Posted December 1, 2009 it was in a Homebrew campain we are playing i attacked with 1500 he has 2000 pts defending i get a bonus though. he also had a shock attack gun and 2 battle wagons or something but i think its not my skill that we drew but his i think ill go with long fangs and some others i will tweek the list and get back to you guys Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185986-tips-for-killing-orks/#findComment-2201243 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlk Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 and what bonus would that be, hidden wolf? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/185986-tips-for-killing-orks/#findComment-2201250 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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