Creating a tourney All-Comers list with Vanilla Dex

[Giga]

Alright, so I've been pondering this lately. The IG codex has come, bringing hordes and tons of mech, the SW codex has come, bringing MEQ with powerful psychic powers and strong assaulty stuff, and the nids codex is coming soon and if we're to believe the rumors it's going to be a massive horde army that also has massively powerful psychic powers (rumors say they have a str 9 ap 2 lance psychic power, and a spammable psychic power that causes pinning tests to everything in a certain radius).

 

In other words, the focus is changing from nidzilla and shooty MEQ, to mass horde and assaulty MEQ, all of that sprinkled with considerable psychic powers + all the things we had to deal with before (such as vulkan, and dual lash).

 

How do we, as vanilla marines, deal with that? In the 1750 bracket? The idea is to make a list that can reliably deal with the vast majority of things that can be thrown at it.

 

What do we need to do that? Well, for one we need protection from psykers, which is only offered by a librarian. We need a powerful assault specialist that can face the assault specialists of other armies (SW, CSM, and upcoming nids being particularly scary), so we need th/ss termies. We also need some way to protect ourselves from all those leadership-based attacks, such as sanctioned psyker choruses. We need to be able to deal with things that we will doubtless see in the tournament, such as daemon princes, th/ss terminators, vulkan, etc. We need anti-tank and anti-horde. We also need to avoid the eggs-in-basket syndrome, which is hard because unlike the other top codexes vanilla doesn't have access to extremely killy troops, so that necessitates at least two big, strong killy units (IMHO).

 

My initial idea was to go Vulkan, but I quickly discarded it. Vulkan, though awesome and fun to play, suffers from the eggs-in-basket syndrome + maxing out on him tends to overfocus a list, which isn't exactly great in an all-comers list. Most of the killer things vulkan supports, like speeders and attack bikes, are all very fragile of themselves, so relying on them to kill a big portion of your opponent's army isn't exactly a superb idea. When it comes to the units with staying power, Vulkan lists are limited to th/ss terminators, vulkan himself, and killier tacticals. This necessitates a LR, and when you put in some attack bikes and speeders, there usually isn't enough points for much else in 1750 pts, which gets us to the eggs-in-basket problem and isn't great for an all-comers list.

 

Same can be said about Lysander, Captain and Chapter Master lists. Command squads are just not killy and survivable enough to serve as a hammer unit, so the lists suffer from similar problems as vulkan lists.

 

Bike captain and Khan are a different story here, because having access to bikes as troops gives a player multiple hammer units (a big beefed up bike squad working in conjunction + th/ss termies in a LR, is an example of dual hammer units), but the problem here is that bikes suffer a lot from lash (not to mention new stuff, like Njal), which cannot be ignored in a tourney setting.

 

So that brings me Pedro Cantor. Here's a sample list I came up with;

1750 pts

KP:12

 

HQ:

Pedro Cantor

 

Librarian

- the avenger

- null zone

 

TROOPS:

Tactical Squad “Red” (10 men)

- flamer

- missile launcher

- power fist instead of bolt pistol on sergeant

- combiflamer

- rhino

 

Tactical Squad “Yellow” (10 men)

- flamer

- plasma cannon

- chainsword instead of boltgun on sergeant

- razorback

 

ELITES:

Assault Terminators (5 men)

- 5x TH/SS

 

Sternguard Veterans (9 men)

- power fist instead of bolt pistol on sergeant

- heavy flamer x2

- rhino

 

FAST ATTACK:

Land Speeder Squadron (2 speeders)

- multimelta x3

- replace heavy bolter with heavy flamer

 

Attack Bike Squadron (2 bikes)

- replace heavy bolters with multimeltas

 

HEAVY SUPPORT:

Land Raider

- extra armor

- multimelta

Let's make a rundown;

 

- we got two strong, hammer units, one is an assault specialist specialized against heavy infantry, MCs, and the like, the other is made to slaughter infantry, MCs, and can pretty much kick some serious behind in close combat, either of them can kill pretty much anything

 

- we got three big, scoring units

 

- we got a defensive tac squad for objective holding, and an offensive tac squad that should go forth and support the hammer units

 

- we have long-ranged firepower thanks to the LR, a missile launcher, a plasma cannon, and orbital bombardment

 

- the libby provides protection from psychic powers, while at the same time giving us a way to mess up all those daemons, th/ss termies, ICs, and the like. The avenger is there so that the libby can occasionally do some damage.

 

- pedro cantor provides stubborn (which renders the army immune to stuff like sanctioned psyker squads) and his attack aura, which makes us more capable of dishing it out in close combat, which is something vanilla can always use to great effect

 

- we got tons of anti-infantry and quite a lot of anti-tank

 

- the list has flexibility with its HQs, I can drive the libby in the LR or with the sternies, and I can do the same with pedro, or I can put them all in the LR depending on need, etc.

 

This is an example of a list I'm thinking about. Remember that this thread isn't about this particular list. It's just an example I came up with yesterday, that I feel might be a great all-comers list.

 

I would like you guys to give me your opinions on what you think will constitute a good tournament list in months to come. If possible, post examples of your own new-age all-comers lists. Keep the new codexes + the upcoming nids in mind, and generally give me your ideas and point out your own observations. I'm particularly thinking of tournament players here. I would like to make this into a discussion that will benefit the veterans and beginners alike.

 

TL/DR: Let's discuss all-comers list in the wake of new IG and SW codexes, and with the upcoming nids dex in mind.

[Titan87]

I like the list.

 

Pedro and the Libby are great support/army boosters. I break down HQ's into 2 categories, Librarians, Chaplains, Sicarius, Pedro, Khan(fits into both) I fell are support units that are used to boost an individual unit or the entire army here your paying for their support abilities/army changing tactics and less so for their combat abilities. The second group is more the killy of the HQ's Calgar(special case), lysander, Shrike, captain, Chapter master here your paying for the amount of damage that the HQ can dish out, and any extra benefits you get are gravy. So in building a list, I would decide what I want from My HQ's. I usually take one from each group.

 

As far as the librarian goes the psychic protection is nice, as are his abilities. The psychic hood can really ruin a persons day. just make sure you have decided where and how to use him. Tailor him to the role he excels when specialized.

 

I think that assault terminators+land raider is maybe the best hammer unit in the game, and may be in just about any competitive vanilla Army.

 

Land Speeder I would make make sure that if you give them two weapons they are completely divergent, so that you can move the full distance every turn and shoot, which is why the MM+HF combo is so good.

 

Otherwise things look pretty good, My only real confusion is how to use sternguard, but that is more a failure of imagination/knowledge on my part then a failing of the unit.

[pingo]

My only real confusion is how to use sternguard.

 

I should imagine their usefulness comes from being able to respond effectively to threats as they arise, rather than having any specific role in mind. They could probably support any of the other units if needed, creating a solid gunline (with their special ammo coming in handy for sure), thinning units with those heavy flamers, or even lending a hand in close combat with their two attacks each. Plus Kantor makes them scoring.

[Deus de Mortalis]

I think a good use for sternguard with Pedro is to camp on an objective. A 5 man squad in a rhino with 2 plasma cannons is only 180 points. It is cheaper than a tactical squad but has a lot more firepower, plus is almost as good if it gets assaulted.

[Giga]

Glad you guys like my list, but that's not the point of this thread. It's just an example. :)

 

I want you guys to show me your own all-comers list, to tell me why you do stuff you do, and how exactly this list of yours deals with the current trends of Njal, wolfwing, multiple vendettas, alpha strike IG, vulkan, and the like. I want to make a discussion that will hopefully benefit everyone who's interested in a little indepth tactic. :D

My only real confusion is how to use sternguard, but that is more a failure of imagination/knowledge on my part then a failing of the unit.

Sternguard units are an overall hammer unit here. They can do anything.

 

They have their special ammunition, which enables them to put wounds on anything and anyone. Dual heavy flamers enable them to reliably put even more wounds on anything with T5 or less. A single turn of shooting can wipe out entire units; for example, their cover-ignoring ammunition, combined with dual heavy flamers, and pedro's own storm bolter, enable you to wipe out an entire unit of lootas even though they're in cover. It's just an example.

 

This ability to wound anything allows them to put tons of wounds on monstrous creatures and kill them by forcing saves. The sternguard are the absolute best way (in vanilla dex) to kill things like daemons and c'tan. Add null zone and you can be pretty much sure that that pesky fateweaver is going to die in a single rapid firing session. ;)

 

Big units of sternguard are quite resilient. They're MEQ, after all. With Pedro, they're also scoring, making them a perfect spearhead unit to accompany the terminators. Later on, hopefully after they did some considerable damage, they can claim objectives farther away from your deployment zone.

 

Finally, with pedro's aura, sternguard get 3 attacks on defense, and 4 attacks if they charge.

 

They are an overall hammer unit that is going to draw fire and create target saturation. With Pedro and null zone, they're easily as dangerous as th/ss termies.

I think a good use for sternguard with Pedro is to camp on an objective. A 5 man squad in a rhino with 2 plasma cannons is only 180 points. It is cheaper than a tactical squad but has a lot more firepower, plus is almost as good if it gets assaulted.

Theoretically, this is a good idea.

 

The problem with it is, sternguard are scoring with pedro, but they aren't troops. This means I still need to dish out points for at least two big, hefty tactical squads, so there are always combat squads to go around and spending 180 pts on 2 plasma cannons is simply something I don't have points for.

[minigun762]

TL/DR: Let's discuss all-comers list in the wake of new IG and SW codexes, and with the upcoming nids dex in mind.

 

One thing that I think I would want to address is upping the numbers in your army lists.

 

Considering how easy it is for IG, Orks, and the new Tyranid to hit 100+ models and both Chaos and SW easily using 50+ models at the same point levels, Loyalists have to consider the benefit of adding more bodies to their lists. While you can't spam your troop choices the same way other armies can, it does not mean you can neglect them.

In your sample army, you have 3 scoring units which come to 29 MEQ bodies at 1750 points. SW or Chaos Marines would very likely have 4-5 units for a total of 40-50 MEQ bodies. That puts you at a fairly significant disadvantage as far as viable scoring units.

[Gornall]

I think part of the lower body count stems from the fact that SM's main counter assault unit (TH/SS Termies) requires a 240+ point Land Raider to be effective. We can't get Demon Princes (wings), Grey Hunters, or Zerkers (Rhinos). Our other options (Assault Marines/Vanguard/Honorguard) are either ineffective, overpriced, or require a specifc character to unlock them. At the same time, SM doesn't have the firepower that IG/Tau have where they can almost completely ignore the need for counter assault. Having to sink points into that really reduces the body count IMO.

[Titan87]

The issue is that our troops are middle of the road at best, they are outclassed as all 'rounders by the wolves and chaos, things like genestealers own them in the assault, while Tau troops kill in the shooting phase. I feel for the army to be effective we have to take the "uber units" because our troops can't cut the mustard. We need to use the Assault terminators, Terminators, dreadnoughts, sternguard, because we cannot rely on our troops to do much effectively against most other troops, let alone specialist units. (THIS IS MY OPINION YOUR MILEAGE MAY VARY)

 

The biggest thing for me is that In building a vanilla army it needs to be a collection of specialists to be effective, with troops only as objective holders/mini firebases.

[minigun762]

I think part of the lower body count stems from the fact that SM's main counter assault unit (TH/SS Termies) requires a 240+ point Land Raider to be effective. We can't get Demon Princes (wings), Grey Hunters, or Zerkers (Rhinos). Our other options (Assault Marines/Vanguard/Honorguard) are either ineffective, overpriced, or require a specifc character to unlock them. At the same time, SM doesn't have the firepower that IG/Tau have where they can almost completely ignore the need for counter assault. Having to sink points into that really reduces the body count IMO.

 

I guess I'm not convinced that the only viable counter-assault unit for SM is their TH/SS Terminators. They are a great unit to be sure, but I don't see why your basic Assault Marines squad with a Power Fist can't do a similar job considering the intended use of counter-assault units (to block dedicated assault units from getting to your more fragile elements). Dreadnoughts also work well in this role.

 

That being said, I think the bigger concern is the percieved need to field the "uber" HQ choices. Spending so much on your HQ naturally leaves less points for the rest of the list.

 

The biggest thing for me is that In building a vanilla army it needs to be a collection of specialists to be effective, with troops only as objective holders/mini firebases.

 

I will agree that Loyalists need to use their other FOC slots more then some other armies, but it still looks like you have alot of top heavy lists that rely on 1-2 "uber" units to do all the heavy lifting and I feel that that is a dangerous way to play.

[glsn]

One unit I think is missing from this discussion is 2x Typhoons. I played in a 1250 tournament yesterday and these little suckers were my MVP. They survived to the end of every game and dealt a lot of damage. From killing Tactical Marines like they were nothing, to stopping Defilers, and killing Nob squads with Paiinboys and heavy armour, they were awesome. I fielded them with two Land Speeder Storms and a unit of Thunder Hammer Terminators. Everyone focused on those two units first.

[FabulousRex]

I think that the CounterAssault portion of SM armies is all too-often overblown and made to be far more important than it needs to be. Surely, you need -something- that can tackle assault, but all-powerful units able to kill Harlies and C'Tan at the same time aren't truly required. AsltTerms are the current cream of the crop, but you have to carefully consider whether they are viable for your playstyle and army list.

 

I think when considering SMs for competitive play, you can't overlook Bikers as Troops. Too many times I've heard TacSqds and Scouts referred to as 'point taxes' and 'objective holders only'. Bikes can actually take the fight to the foe on your terms instead of sitting and taking it. That said, all-Bike armies have quite a few problems with the current meta-game, especially versus Lash and Hordes. But, you can get some nice task-specific Troops to round out your force as Hunters without breaking the bank. Combined with traditional TacSqds, and you can add some much-needed speed to your Armylist. When I run a Hybrid Mech list, one of my favorites is the Roaster Squad; 5 Bikes, 2 Flamers and a Combi-Flamer/Meltabombs. 165pts gives you a very fast squad with a broad threat potential. They are useful against any army, though especially good against Horde armies that also pack vehicles *cough*Orks/IG*cough*. Sure, they'll probably die after killing something, but not always, and your opponent usually has to devote much more force than is typical to get that pesky squad out of his backfield.

[Giga]

One thing that I think I would want to address is upping the numbers in your army lists.

 

Considering how easy it is for IG, Orks, and the new Tyranid to hit 100+ models and both Chaos and SW easily using 50+ models at the same point levels, Loyalists have to consider the benefit of adding more bodies to their lists. While you can't spam your troop choices the same way other armies can, it does not mean you can neglect them.

In your sample army, you have 3 scoring units which come to 29 MEQ bodies at 1750 points. SW or Chaos Marines would very likely have 4-5 units for a total of 40-50 MEQ bodies. That puts you at a fairly significant disadvantage as far as viable scoring units.

It's true that tactical marines are more of support troops. On their own, they cannot be relied to get the job done. Yet, in any sized game (1500+) having less then 3 troop choices is IMHO a bad idea. Tacticals really need a transport most of the time, and if you're gonna use them to support forward elements (which is what they do the best) you also need to give them a powerfist and possibly a combiweapon. So this sends their price to ~230 pts. Having 3 units of these will hence end up around 700 points, and that's 700 points of support units.

 

Which is why us vanilla lists must have things like th/ss termies, MMABs, speeders, and internal synergy. I actually believe this doesn't put us at a disadvantage compared to other MEQ, as this awesome anti-tank, sternguard and th/ss termies allow us to concentrate our firepower like no other MEQ army can. Our weakness is our support troops, and our strength are our specialists.

I guess I'm not convinced that the only viable counter-assault unit for SM is their TH/SS Terminators. They are a great unit to be sure, but I don't see why your basic Assault Marines squad with a Power Fist can't do a similar job considering the intended use of counter-assault units (to block dedicated assault units from getting to your more fragile elements). Dreadnoughts also work well in this role.

Assault marines can't even compare to th/ss. Not only are they jump infantry (and thus die easily to shooting, lash, terrain etc.), they are also just not that great in assault against anything, let alone the stuff you usually need th/ss for.

 

I mean, imagine sending a CSM squad with a powerfist against a hive tyrant with guard. Or against a daemon prince with warp time. Or against a soul grinder. Or against a defiler. Or against a bunch of zerkers with a pfist. The CSM would get owned, and so would assault marines.

 

Dreadnoughts are also quite weak in close combat. What, 3 attacks on charge, on a platform that moves 6" a turn and dies easily to any anti-tank in the game? Not to mention a single weapon destroyed deprives it of its DCCW?

 

The th/ss in LR get a dual benefit of having a 20" assault range, and being safe from most shooting. Not to mention you can also put a character in that LR. Not to mention the dmg the LR itself can unleash, and the niches it fills in your army. Not to mention the target saturation it creates.

That being said, I think the bigger concern is the percieved need to field the "uber" HQ choices. Spending so much on your HQ naturally leaves less points for the rest of the list.

Unless it's a purely support choice (such as a libby), I think one shouldn't keep their HQ choice cheap in a vanilla army. Not to mention the point cost for SCs is fixed anyway.

 

Either way, I would like to hear what you suggest. :D

[minigun762]

Yet, in any sized game (1500+) having less then 3 troop choices is IMHO a bad idea. Tacticals really need a transport most of the time, and if you're gonna use them to support forward elements (which is what they do the best) you also need to give them a powerfist and possibly a combiweapon. So this sends their price to ~230 pts. Having 3 units of these will hence end up around 700 points, and that's 700 points of support units.

 

I will definitely agree that less then 3 troop choices is a bad idea at 1.5k+. However you don't have only think of Tacticals. In fact I would say that Scouts or Bikers represent better choices for most players. Scouts are cheaper and better at holding objectives with Sniper Rifles (super long range fire power) and make for decent counter-assault units when given BP/CCW/Shotguns and Bikers have built in mobility which negates the need for a Rhino and mobile heavy weapons in the form of Attack Bikes.

 

I mean, imagine sending a CSM squad with a powerfist against a hive tyrant with guard. Or against a daemon prince with warp time. Or against a soul grinder. Or against a defiler. Or against a bunch of zerkers with a pfist. The CSM would get owned, and so would assault marines.

I wouldn't say they would get owned, but you are right, they would probably lose in the end. However the difference is that all of those targets should be weakened/destroyed at range whenever possible with all the cheap long range firepower that Loyalist Marines get. What that Assault squad is really doing is choosing to hold that enemy unit at a certain point instead of letting it have its target of choice. Considering a full sized Assault Squad with 2 Flamers and a Power Fist is 225 points if I remember, you can have 20 Assault Marines, 4 Flamers and 2 Power Fists for the same price as your squad of 6 TH/SS Terminators and a Land Raider. Those Terminators might be better, but I'm putting alot more bodies on the table with built in mobility that can't be removed by a lucky Termicide squad.

 

Dreadnoughts are also quite weak in close combat. What, 3 attacks on charge, on a platform that moves 6" a turn and dies easily to any anti-tank in the game? Not to mention a single weapon destroyed deprives it of its DCCW?

With Ironclads, AV13 makes you immune to Kraks and lessens the damage even a Power Fist can do and with a naked Dread, you're using a model that might cost 110 points to hold up a unit that easily costs twice that. This is in addition to the firepower they can bring on the turns prior to assaulting.

 

The th/ss in LR get a dual benefit of having a 20" assault range, and being safe from most shooting. Not to mention you can also put a character in that LR. Not to mention the dmg the LR itself can unleash, and the niches it fills in your army. Not to mention the target saturation it creates.

Don't feel like I'm bashing the TH/SS Terminators in a Land Raider. It IS a powerful unit. However I don't think of it as a counter-unit, its just too expensive to be used as such unless you're talking 2.5k games. In my opinion, if you're using this squad (especially if you attached an HQ of death to it) you're using it as a linchpin to your overall plan. This means that other units are supporting it, which I feel is a very different thing then what a counter-assault unit does.

 

Unless it's a purely support choice (such as a libby), I think one shouldn't keep their HQ choice cheap in a vanilla army. Not to mention the point cost for SCs is fixed anyway.

This must be a difference in Codex, because I'm using to playing a cheap Chaos HQ and using those points to bulk up my army. I see nothing wrong with non-SC HQ units. Hell I think adding a cheap Chaplain to your TH/SS Terminator squad is a great idea (or to an Assault Marine unit like 4th edition). Relic Blade Captain on a Bike is also fairly cheap considering you can put him into a scoring Biker squad.

[Grey Mage]

I think part of the lower body count stems from the fact that SM's main counter assault unit (TH/SS Termies) requires a 240+ point Land Raider to be effective. We can't get Demon Princes (wings), Grey Hunters, or Zerkers (Rhinos). Our other options (Assault Marines/Vanguard/Honorguard) are either ineffective, overpriced, or require a specifc character to unlock them. At the same time, SM doesn't have the firepower that IG/Tau have where they can almost completely ignore the need for counter assault. Having to sink points into that really reduces the body count IMO.

I think the issue is that most marine players dont try to find ways to make their troop choices work, and instead rely on sledgehammer units like TH+SS TDA.

 

Not directly pointed at you, but I cant say how often Ive seen marine players who threw finesse entirely out the window in favor of "hittem hard, in the face, until they stop" style tactics. That just isnt going to be as effective as using what you have in a truely tactical manner.

 

So yes, At 170pts with ML+Flamer a Tactical Squad isnt the awe inspiring death machine that a Greater Daemon is... but they are effective. Up it to about 210-230pts, and youll have an effective fighting machine- and priced similarly to anyting the wolves have to boot. Take one for every 500pts, rounding up... and then suit your list around support them and each other.

 

Example: 10 Marines, Missile Launcher and Meltagun, Rhino, Powerweapon- 225pts. Mobile, with weaponry thats well rounded and good against anything youll face. Take 3, and a 5 strong scout unit with a powerfist in a LLS with a HF- 835pts, leaving you with about 900pts to throw in for HQ, support, and a bit of fun.

 

Another Example: 10 Marines, Lascannon and Plasmagun, Powerfist-215pts of kick-arse. In capture and control use it as a home base objective camper and long range support squad. In annihilation it can support your advancing rhino squads and assault marines by stunning enemy tanks or hitting outflanking/fast units that might be trying to flank your spearhead. In objective missions you should have a couple placed near you- so deploy it close by, and just walk it over there in a turn at most and then set up as fire support. Footslogging isnt as bad as people say it is.

 

Scouts have Infiltrate- whens the last time anyone used it? At 12" you have a 1/3 chance of being able to get a first turn assault off without the need for a transport... and at a starting price of 140pts for 31 attacks hitting on a 4+. Want to cause some real carnage? Give the leader a powerfist and a combi-melta and pop some enemy tanks, or a flamer and carve a swath through that 30 strong Boyz Mob. If your playing shrike you can get first turn charges off with these guys without any need for your HQ to be in the same squad- instead you can use them to support his more killy unit by tying up enemy counter-assault units and templates that might remove them if you punch through his forces to quickly. In fact, if your playing shrike I wouldnt leave home without two of these, maybe three if your LGS uses alot of cover.

 

HQ:

If your worried about the prevelence of Psychic Powers in your local store, then bring a Librarian... 100pts, and your pretty much done. They dont need shiny upgrades to be effective, so run it cheap and simple.

 

Chaplains should probly be considered at smaller point values for the leadership bolstering effects of Fearless. Again, at 100pts theres very little, if anything you need to customize with these guys to make them effective and helpful to your force.

 

Another place people can find points is in their heavy support options.

 

I hear ALOT of griping about Devastator squads, and I can only say buck up and take it. Either you want the oblative wounds or you dont. If your not taking these guys, then every Tactical Squad should have a Heavy Weapon, period/end of story.

 

Whirlwinds- Against Horde armies these things are invaluable, and they arent bad against marine players either. They are also DIRT CHEAP. 85pts for a pie plate that can hit almost anywhere on a 4x6 board from out of line of sight and ignoring most cover? Heck yes! Dont forget its also pinning, and even if it only kills 1 marine a turn for 6 turns its more than made its points back.

 

Dreadnaughts- Yes, they take up a heavy support slot, but they really are a heavy support function- they should be advancing forward with your rhinos/footsloggers and laying down supporting fire as they go. Yes, they might die... nothing is invulnerable in this game... but they are effective at what they do and at about half a tac squad a peice they are reasonably priced.

 

Landraiders- stop spaming these if you are. They really arent as good as the THREE whirlwinds you could bring for their points. Also, consider putting less critical units inside them. A Scoring unit with a weaponless, immobilized, AV 14 bunker is alot more useful in most games than a 600+ pt death machine... that could fail to do anything with a few bad rolls. 1, maybe 2 at 2000pts.

 

Elites- Dreadnaughts, as stated should be re-evaluated.

 

Sterngaurd- I see way to many people using these guys as throw-away units. Its absurd. You pay 25pts a model for a guy who can kill just about anything better than just about anyone at range. So deploy them at range and use them to lay down some real firepower. Bring them along mixed into your rhino lines, or support them with tactical squads in DPs- but dont waste a 300pt unit trying to take out a 200pt unit, it just doesnt work well.

 

Legion of the Damned- Deep strike them in front of your enemies lines, bust open a tank with a MM+MG and watch as your opponent goes "what the hell?" and spends far more firepower on them than on the rest of your army. 6-8 is pretty survivable, and almost gauranteed to keep your opponent busy for a couple turns.

 

Fast Attack- this is really one of the most overlooked slots in marine armies, unless people are gunning for it alone.

 

Bike Squads- while expensive, bike squads are tougher than normal marines, faster, and when properly outfitted just as flexable as a tactical squad. While the models are expensive, I feel that more players would do well to field them. A Biking Relicblade Captain with 4 Bikers and a MM attack bike, equiped with a Powerweapon and a Meltagun runs a measly 355pts, for a Scoring HQ+Bodygaurd that can hunt tanks and redeploy accross the field in a turn.

 

Landspeeder Storm- Small units of scouts in these babies can make back their points turn 1 by destroying enemy artillery or landraiders, and flaming some infantry in the process. Combined with a relatively cheap scout squad gives you one of the fastest scoring units in the game for a mere 160pts, and less money than a LRC after buying scouts.

 

Landspeeder Typhoons Deserve an honorable mention here- while they are a bit expensive their fast speed means that side armor shots are all but gauranteed against most enemies, and their ability to fire all weapons on the move and take on hordes *via frag templates* is amazing.

 

Just a few things I see going unused and unappreciated in the C:SM lists Ive seen these last two years.

[Marek Grimfang]

Absolute great write up Grey Mage.

 

Its tactics and looking into the deep soul of what actual bare bones regular units can do that gets me going in this game. The choices for a mere Tactical Squad is endless. Despite being a SW player, this is what always drags me back to the so called under powered C:SM.

 

One of my fav unit sI would like to add that you left out is the Assault Squad. However I do like to use them minus the Jump Packs and give them the free Rhino. Never a DP since its a waste of a free transport.

 

I either have them armed with 2x Flamers and a tooled Sgt. with LC's or PF, or with Plasma Pistols and PF, TH, LC's. Not a scoring unit, but a great clearing unit or contesting unit.

 

The 2x Flamer option is there for hordes or light armoured units like Guard, Tau, or many of the "Nid species. This unit is also a blast in City Fight.

 

Supported by a Dread nearby, with the Twin Linked Heavy Flamer, or Inferno Canon, its a good tie in for templates that ignore cover.

[Grey Mage]

Oh, assault marines are pretty good at that... I jsut find that a number of people do use them, and use them well.

 

Though personally I cant vouch for their viability without JPs, Im glad to hear they are working well for you... Ive always been a fan of your Codex Rules SW army, and its brilliant paintjobs.

[Giga]

Bikers as troops are excellent. However, they suffer a lot from lash. This of itself is a massive weakness in a tourney environment, which is why I don't trust them as a mainstay troop choice, and why I don't believe they're the right choice for all-comers troops.

 

Scouts, I don't think are good. 4+ save, WS/BS 3 just make them inefficient. If you give them camo cloaks and a heavy weapon (which is more or less mandatory for a sniper squad that you want to camp objectives with), they cost 180 pts. That's more expensive then a full tac squad with flamer and a free heavy weapon. I just don't think it's worth it. Like bikers, they also suffer from lash.

 

Tacticals, I think, are better objective campers then scouts, because tacticals have access to razorbacks. For 215 pts, you get a tac squad with a plasma cannon and a razorback. In many battles, you can safely combat-squad it, and have half the unit go forward to assist the army, while the other half with the PC guards an objective. I personally find this to be the best objective-guarding option, and it's one thing that makes its way into pretty much every single one of my lists.

I wouldn't say they would get owned, but you are right, they would probably lose in the end. However the difference is that all of those targets should be weakened/destroyed at range whenever possible with all the cheap long range firepower that Loyalist Marines get. What that Assault squad is really doing is choosing to hold that enemy unit at a certain point instead of letting it have its target of choice. Considering a full sized Assault Squad with 2 Flamers and a Power Fist is 225 points if I remember, you can have 20 Assault Marines, 4 Flamers and 2 Power Fists for the same price as your squad of 6 TH/SS Terminators and a Land Raider. Those Terminators might be better, but I'm putting alot more bodies on the table with built in mobility that can't be removed by a lucky Termicide squad.

Theoretically, this sounds good. 20 assault marines, 4 flamers, and two powerfists would cost 470 pts. 5 points less then a LR with 5 termies. It's a big number of MEQ bodies... But... Assault marines take up fast attack slots. This means I can take less attack bikes and speeders, which of itself is a huge reason not to take two units of assault marines. Not only that, but the said assault marines don't fill a proper niche. They're like honor guard - infantry killers. It's something vanilla armies can already do extremely well.

 

Theoretically, the big gribblies should be destroyed at range, but what do you do when there are 5-6 monstrous creatures coming at you? Or a pair of winged princes and a bunch of rhinos with zerkers? Or a daemonzilla?

 

In such situations, one has to prioritize their anti-tank fire. Obviously, killing a tyrant with 2-3 guards takes a lot more shooting then taking down a 4 wound shooty carnifex. A tyrant with 3 guards has 10 wounds total. It's always a better option to focus your anti-tank fire and kill two carnifexes, then to kill this one tyrant with 3 guards. This is why we have th/ss termies - they + a HQ choice can assault that tyrant, and :cusspwn it in a single assault phase. This is their niche, this is what they do better then anything in a vanilla dex. They go in, and they kill hard stuff in a single assault phase. Assault marines can't do that.

 

There's also the LR itself. My LR classic is one of my biggest assets. It's dual TL lascannons and it's multimelta are more valuable to me then 10 assault marines.

 

As for ironclads; technically they could be good, but from my experience they always get owned by anti-tank before they can get into close combat. There's virtually no way to avoid this. Another reason is, they tarpit stuff, they don't kill it effectively. Th/SS termies don't tarpit stuff, they go in and they wipe it out in a single assault phase. No dread can do that.

Don't feel like I'm bashing the TH/SS Terminators in a Land Raider. It IS a powerful unit. However I don't think of it as a counter-unit, its just too expensive to be used as such unless you're talking 2.5k games. In my opinion, if you're using this squad (especially if you attached an HQ of death to it) you're using it as a linchpin to your overall plan. This means that other units are supporting it, which I feel is a very different thing then what a counter-assault unit does.

This goes to the heart of the matter.

 

I want to avoid having the th/ss termies + LR be the linchpin of my army. This is why I don't want to take Vulkan. I want to create a list that has great target saturation, and that has at least two primary units, which is why I went for a th/ss+LR+libby and big sternguard unit+Pedro.

This must be a difference in Codex, because I'm using to playing a cheap Chaos HQ and using those points to bulk up my army. I see nothing wrong with non-SC HQ units. Hell I think adding a cheap Chaplain to your TH/SS Terminator squad is a great idea (or to an Assault Marine unit like 4th edition). Relic Blade Captain on a Bike is also fairly cheap considering you can put him into a scoring Biker squad.

The only good cheap HQ in vanilla dex IMHO is the librarian.

 

Chaplain is nice, but there's really no reason to take him instead of a variety of other HQs available. Vanilla HQs actually have understandable prices, because they provide armywide benefits. Even the humble captain has a 4++ save and unlocks command squads. The standard bike captain with relic blade is 165 pts (almost as much as warptime MoN daemonprince!). The special characters that provide big benefits are all 160+ pts.

 

I think that is alright, seeing as they give a lot more to an army then just a strong close combat IC. Chaos HQs, on the other hand, are mostly just designed to kill stuff without really adding a benefit to the army as a whole.

[Grey Mage]

Out of curiosity, but why is anyone having problems killing Daemon Princes from C:CSM in two turns?

 

To Clarify- if youve brought sufficient Long Range antitank, wouldnt firing upon the 180pt model thats the key to your enemies strategy make sense? And wouldnt a squad of 4 missile launchers, on saverage, take him down in 2-3 turns, tops? Meaning that at 1750pts there should be little reason you cannot wipe out one of them on turn 1, and another on turn 2, while shaking and/or stunning non-possessed enemy ordnance?

 

Scouts... yes, they have a 4+ save, but they are also S 4, T 4, and most importantly I 4. Against nonmarines theyll be going first, against eldar they are truely no worse off than they were before. WS 3 makes no difference against WS 4 opponents in how much damage theyll do, and with half again as many attacks as a tactical squad on the charge, and the ability to get it off immediately.... well, Id think the benefits are obvious.

 

If your problem is that camo cloaks and a heavy weapon are to expensive... then dont run them that way. Instead either just bolster a ruin, or realise that in war we take casualties... and your scouts are cheaper, and thus more expendable, than your tac marines. Theres nothing wrong with them diing, as long as they get the job done first- and that they can do.

[minigun762]

Bikers as troops are excellent. However, they suffer a lot from lash. This of itself is a massive weakness in a tourney environment, which is why I don't trust them as a mainstay troop choice, and why I don't believe they're the right choice for all-comers troops.

I see where you're coming from about Lash, but you do have your Librarians to block it and I think alot of the benefits of Biker troops might overwhelm the ability to be lashed.

 

Scouts, I don't think are good. 4+ save, WS/BS 3 just make them inefficient. If you give them camo cloaks and a heavy weapon (which is more or less mandatory for a sniper squad that you want to camp objectives with), they cost 180 pts. That's more expensive then a full tac squad with flamer and a free heavy weapon. I just don't think it's worth it. Like bikers, they also suffer from lash.

With Lash, remember it can't be everywhere and Lash Princes should be your first targets normally. As for Scouts, they're really not that bad and I don't believe they have to have Camo Cloaks. A 4+ save with a 4+ cover save (which is easy to get) is pretty durable considering they have an effective range of 36". Thats outside the range of alot of return fire. The big advantage here is that Sniper Rifles have an extra 12" of effective range over Bolters, so if you're not moving that makes for a bigger area of effect. Don't discount assault Scouts. Sure they're WS3 but they're still hitting on 4's against other Marines plus you have more attacks. And the Power Fist is still WS4 and it does the majority of the heavy lifting anyway. The 4+ save isn't a disadvantage when you're fighting a MC or Dreadnought or Power Klaw Nob squad, which is what a counter-assault unit should be blocking.

 

Tacticals, I think, are better objective campers then scouts, because tacticals have access to razorbacks. For 215 pts, you get a tac squad with a plasma cannon and a razorback.

Great combo by the way, I would fully support this kind of loadout. Even toss in a Plasmagun maybe.

 

But... Assault marines take up fast attack slots. This means I can take less attack bikes and speeders, which of itself is a huge reason not to take two units of assault marines.

Fair point :) I'm used to having crappy Fast Attack options but you are right, Loyalists have alot of awesome FA.

 

Theoretically, the big gribblies should be destroyed at range, but what do you do when there are 5-6 monstrous creatures coming at you? Or a pair of winged princes and a bunch of rhinos with zerkers? Or a daemonzilla? There's also the LR itself. My LR classic is one of my biggest assets. It's dual TL lascannons and it's multimelta are more valuable to me then 10 assault marines.

They should be destroyed at range when you're playing Loyalists (whenever possible). Of course a good player is going to try and overwhelm you just as you're saying. My answer would be you don't need to have an equal unit to kill then in HtH combat but you need to have a few units to hold some of those MCs while you kill the others at range, then kill them once they've eaten through your sacrificial unit (which weakened them in the meantime).

 

If you want to keep the Land Raider, what about putting a unit of assault Scouts in there? It sounds silly but it turns the Land Raider scoring and gives you something to assault bad things that want to hurt your Land Raider while protecting your troops.

 

As for ironclads; technically they could be good, but from my experience they always get owned by anti-tank before they can get into close combat. There's virtually no way to avoid this. Another reason is, they tarpit stuff, they don't kill it effectively. Th/SS termies don't tarpit stuff, they go in and they wipe it out in a single assault phase. No dread can do that.

Ironclads are fairly durable to long range firepower. Now Meltas will turn them into goo fast, but thats true of any piece of armor and Melta requires them to get close to that big scary Dread. As for the tarpitting vs killing. Remember you don't always have to kill it, sometimes delaying it for a few turns is enough to win battles elsewhere and direct resources to that battle later.

 

This goes to the heart of the matter.

 

I want to avoid having the th/ss termies + LR be the linchpin of my army. This is why I don't want to take Vulkan. I want to create a list that has great target saturation, and that has at least two primary units, which is why I went for a th/ss+LR+libby and big sternguard unit+Pedro.

I'll approach this from the view of a potential opponent. I personally am less scared of 1-2 uber units then an army where I don't see a weak point really. I'm NOT saying you have a weak army but I find it easier to focus on killing 2 big units then trying to handle 5+ solid but non-glamorous units.

 

 

I think that is alright, seeing as they give a lot more to an army then just a strong close combat IC. Chaos HQs, on the other hand, are mostly just designed to kill stuff without really adding a benefit to the army as a whole.

Very true and I won't turn this into a "which codex's HQ is better" but I would stress that Loyalist HQs don't have to be expensive. You save 50 points from an HQ choice and thats enough for another Attack Bike or Land Speeder or 3 more Tactical Marines.

 

How about this as a potential army?

 

HQ: 165

Captain, Relic Blade, Bike

 

FAST: 185

2 Land Speeders, Heavy Flamer, Multi-Melta

1 Heavy Bolter Attack Bike

 

TROOP: 910

10 Tactical Marine, Flamer, Plasma Cannon, TL Heavy Bolter Razorback

10 Sniper Scouts, 1 Heavy Bolter

8 Bikers, Power Fist, 2 Meltaguns, MM Attack Bike

10 Tactical Marines, Meltagun, Multi-Melta, Power Fist, Rhino

 

HEAVY: 240

2 Predators, Autocannon, Lascannons

 

Its not optimal but it gives you an idea of what you could do. Nearly 40 Marines and 4 Scoring units backed up by alot of long range firepower. Your Biker troops are going to function as your counter assault unit, backed up by your Rhino Marine squad. That many Meltaguns fired into something followed by the the Relic Blade and Power Fist should be able to handle more anything fairly well, not to mention you have a very big charge range.

You could always go without the Bikers and replace them with a unit of Sternguard, Pedro and maybe even a cheap Librarian if you want and still maintain 4 scoring units.

 

 

EDIT: Ohh I just thought of another potential idea for an army that would be kinda fun. Basically you pair up a Tactical squad with a Dreadnought for mutual support.

 

10 Tactical Marine, Flamer, Plasma Cannon, TL Heavy Bolter Razorback + RifleDread (2 TL'd Autocannon Dreadnought)

10 Tactical Marines, Meltagun, Multi-Melta, Power Fist, Rhino + Assault Cannon or Plasma Cannon or Multi-Melta Dreadnought

10 Tactical Marines, Flamer, Heavy Bolter, Power Fist, Rhino + Assault Cannon or Plasma Cannon or Multi-Melta Dreadnought

Total is 1035 so you still have nearly 500 points for HQ and more shooting support. I would think that a DCCW Dreadnought backed up by a Power Fist Tactical squad should be a decent assault unit for most things, especially considering all the firepower you have going.

[Gornall]

Great discussion so far! I've been interested to read most of this as I haven't seen a lot of reports of SM being on the top tables of big tournaments. Minigun, you make some very valid observations and points, and I was curious as to how much you play as Loyalist SMs?

 

Just to clarify... 4 MLs/MMs/Lascannons against a Demon Prince equals 1.11 wounds with cover and 1.48 without. When you figure in night-fight and other factors, it makes it difficult to take down 2 with just long-range shooting. A Tactical Squad rapid-firing can knock of another 1.48 (just assuming 20 shots) against a T5 one and .74 against a T6 one. However, couple that with Lash and it can be problematic to deal with them. That and your Lascannons/MMs might be needed to handle Oblits. With TMCs, it gets even worse as some of them can sport 2+ Saves with T7 and can take a serious beating, making devoting enough firepower to down them before they hit your lines next to impossible. But like you said, with more bodies, you can afford to feed some into the grinder to simply tarpit them. Dreadnoughts make pretty poor tarpits in this case, however, as most MCs will make a mess of them quick.

 

I'm actually a big fan of Biker Squads, but I've found that without a Libby (which means at least another 100 point investment), they just become Lash/Jaws bait unless you hold them in reserve and hit something that wanders within 18" of your table edge when they come in. Also, I think they took a pretty big hit when the new IG codex came out, as the sheer amount of pieplates IG can put out is obscene... not to mention Psyker Battle Squads causing the Bikes to run 3D6 back. Assault Marines suffer from this even more, as they cannot turbo-boost, and cannot safely use area terrain to protect them from barrage shots. I used Assault Marines (Flamer x2 and PF) for a long time, but generally found they just bounced off stuff too much or got shot to ribbons before they could impact the game.

 

I will have to admit I have not given Scouts a fair shake, but I would think most of the time a similarly priced Tactical Squad is a better buy unless using the LSS.

 

I agree with the sentiment that I think many people throw Sternguard away too easily. I've only used them a few times here and there (been working on getting them painted), but the games they've really impacted the game are the ones where I've kept them back off the front lines (I've never put them in a DP unless in Planetstrike) and gotten multiple turns of shooting out of them. They've worked best for me when I was able to use another unit to lock whatever they just shot in combat so they don't get counter-charged after Rapid-Firing.

 

What do people feel the effectiveness of long-range firepower verus short-range firepower versus assault? That is something I know I've struggled with, as I have found long-range fire to be somewhat lacking do to the number of cover saves out there and a lot of games using Night-Fight. That and how forgiving the Vehicle Damage Table is unless you hit it with AP1. To me, this seems to have put a larger emphasis on assaults, as they are usually a quick way to take a unit out of the equation when compared to shooting, which seems to be more attrition-based.

[Grey Mage]

I suppose long range firepower depends entirely on what you want out of it.

 

Me? I want to silence my enemies ordnance and tank killers. Therefore, shaken, stunned, weapon destroyed and wrecked are all acceptable results to me. The only thing I go *ahh, crap* over is Immobilized, as in many cases it doesnt matter- that predator wasnt going far anyways.

 

Other LR firepower youve got tends to be either anti-infantry in volume *like dakka predators*, capable of firing even in night-fight *like whirlwinds* or not as nessecairy for the survival of ones army.

 

In short... night fight isnt a problem. It helps mask my army for a bit from the enemies guns, and while that may inconvenience me every vehicle in C:SM has a searchlight, and thus once a target is lit up I can fire at it to my hearts content- in exchange my opponent gets to try and destroy my rhino, wich may be empty.

 

The rest of it... is all 24", wich means at most my opponent will get a short turn of reprieve from my firing before I hit him like a ton of bricks- but its unlikely, as most rolls for nightfight are at 20+inches anyways.

[Giga]

Damn, this is probably the most thought-provoking discussion I've had on these forums. -_-

Out of curiosity, but why is anyone having problems killing Daemon Princes from C:CSM in two turns?

 

To Clarify- if youve brought sufficient Long Range antitank, wouldnt firing upon the 180pt model thats the key to your enemies strategy make sense? And wouldnt a squad of 4 missile launchers, on saverage, take him down in 2-3 turns, tops? Meaning that at 1750pts there should be little reason you cannot wipe out one of them on turn 1, and another on turn 2, while shaking and/or stunning non-possessed enemy ordnance?

Well, it's not really that simple.

 

Let's say you got two daemon princes coming toward you. If the opposing player is any good, he will keep them in cover, giving them a 4+ cover save. He will also have two or three rhinos filled with zerkers, plague marines, and the like, coming alongside these daemon princes. Finally, he will have some obliterators, a defiler or two, or maybe even some vindicators.

 

This is one hell of a lot of targets for anti-tank fire. You will still need eight melta/lascannon/missile launcher wounds per daemon prince to take it down, due to its 4+ cover save.

 

I'm working around this myself, by getting nullzone and relying on fast moving anti-tank. This way I can have a shot at denying cover saves to things like daemon princes, ctan, and greater daemons, while at the same time going a long way towards nullifying their inv save. This way I can murder them in a single turn of shooting, which is what concentration of firepower + synergy is all about. I believe that is the right way to play vanilla armies.

 

As for scouts, well, in KP missions, there IS a problem with them dying. Even if I keep them cheap, I will still probably buy them that heavy bolter, which means they still cost 150 pts, which is only 20 pts less then a full tac squad. I still don't think they're cost worthy.

I see where you're coming from about Lash, but you do have your Librarians to block it and I think alot of the benefits of Biker troops might overwhelm the ability to be lashed.

Theoretically, this is a good idea. But, as we can see from all the tournament data, bike marine armies just don't seem to do all that good. This discussion is about coming up with all-comers lists for tournaments. Empirical evidence has pretty much proven us so far that bike armies don't fare that well.

Great combo by the way, I would fully support this kind of loadout. Even toss in a Plasmagun maybe.

I used to use plasmaguns on this squad, but I found they never did quite as much as I expected + I found I missed the flamer. Personal preference, I guess.

They should be destroyed at range when you're playing Loyalists (whenever possible). Of course a good player is going to try and overwhelm you just as you're saying. My answer would be you don't need to have an equal unit to kill then in HtH combat but you need to have a few units to hold some of those MCs while you kill the others at range, then kill them once they've eaten through your sacrificial unit (which weakened them in the meantime).

 

If you want to keep the Land Raider, what about putting a unit of assault Scouts in there? It sounds silly but it turns the Land Raider scoring and gives you something to assault bad things that want to hurt your Land Raider while protecting your troops.

The thing here is, you usually can't kill everything at range. If you could, it would make for a boring game, and besides, we'd be like IG with power armor. ;)

 

The entire th/ss+LR unit is one of those things I really don't feel need to be changed. They work just fine, and I have long since incorporated them into my general playstyle. Besides, why would I want to replace terminators who kill stuff in one assault phase, with stuff that is only going to tarpit a monstrous creature for a couple turns?

I'll approach this from the view of a potential opponent. I personally am less scared of 1-2 uber units then an army where I don't see a weak point really. I'm NOT saying you have a weak army but I find it easier to focus on killing 2 big units then trying to handle 5+ solid but non-glamorous units.

Well, I myself often play against Blood Angels. So I'm often facing upwards of 30 or more assault marines, all rushing towards me.

 

I find them much, much easier to deal with then a LR full of terminators and a killy HQ. I've personally never had trouble with marine horde armies. This is because you can safely assault marine hordes with tacticals, and be sure that tacticals are going to survive a round or two. TH/SS termies on the other hand go in and wipe out whatever it is they assaulted. They're a hammer unit at its best.

HQ: 165

Captain, Relic Blade, Bike

 

FAST: 185

2 Land Speeders, Heavy Flamer, Multi-Melta

1 Heavy Bolter Attack Bike

 

TROOP: 910

10 Tactical Marine, Flamer, Plasma Cannon, TL Heavy Bolter Razorback

10 Sniper Scouts, 1 Heavy Bolter

8 Bikers, Power Fist, 2 Meltaguns, MM Attack Bike

10 Tactical Marines, Meltagun, Multi-Melta, Power Fist, Rhino

 

HEAVY: 240

2 Predators, Autocannon, Lascannons

I don't like this list.

 

For one, it suffers from the lack of target saturation. Apart from the predators, your highest armor value is 11. This means all anti-tank, and even plasma, can reliably destroy your transports and speeders, and will be trying to do just that. What's more, you have only two killy units - the bikers and the speeders, both of which are easily destroyed if focus fired. You do have quite a bit of anti-tank, but very little anti-horde. It also has no anti-psyker protection, and no real way to deal with things like nob bikerz, th/ss termies, and even nidzilla.

 

Comparing it to my example list, well, you got a grand total of 38 models and an IC. My example list has 34 models and two ICs. From my point of view, your list loses out on close combat capability and target saturation, while gaining some mobility.

What do people feel the effectiveness of long-range firepower verus short-range firepower versus assault? That is something I know I've struggled with, as I have found long-range fire to be somewhat lacking do to the number of cover saves out there and a lot of games using Night-Fight. That and how forgiving the Vehicle Damage Table is unless you hit it with AP1. To me, this seems to have put a larger emphasis on assaults, as they are usually a quick way to take a unit out of the equation when compared to shooting, which seems to be more attrition-based.

It all depends on the list and on the opponent, really.

 

Against IG, necrons, and Tau, the assault is obviously a very very valid option. If you have someone like pedro to add more attacks to your army, then that's even better.

 

Against things like CSM and SW, I follow my golden rule of MEQ vs MEQ battles; the guy who gets to rapidfire first is usually the guy who wins. This means these battles are all about destroying transports and shooting the bejesus out of their troops and assault specialists, thinning them down to a point where they can no longer mount a proper counter-assault. It's Killhammer philosophy really, make them inefficient so they can no longer retaliate. Only at this point should you consider assaulting. At times, of course, you just don't have enough firepower to shoot everything, so this is where th/ss termies come in.

 

Against stuff like nidzilla and daemons, just sit back and shoot them up before they come close to you, and then go in and rapidfire whatever is left standing. Assaulting them is generally a bad idea, unless you're assaulting a shooty carnifex and you got a power fist. ;)

[Giga]

All this talk of bikes as troops has inspired me to make this;

1750 pts

KP:10

 

HQ:

Captain

- relic blade

- space marine bike

 

Librarian

- the avenger

- null zone

 

TROOPS:

Tactical Squad “Red” (10 men)

- flamer

- missile launcher

- power fist instead of bolt pistol on sergeant

- combiflamer

- rhino

 

Sniper Scouts (10 men)

- heavy bolter

- camo cloaks

 

Bike Squad (9 bikes)

- power fist instead of bolt pistol on sergeant

- attack bike

- multimelta instead of heavy bolter on attack bike

- meltagun x2

 

ELITES:

Assault Terminators (5 men)

- 5x TH/SS

 

FAST ATTACK:

Land Speeder Squadron (2 speeders)

- multimelta x2

- replace heavy bolter with heavy flamer

 

Land Speeder Squadron (2 speeders)

- multimelta x2

- replace heavy bolter with heavy flamer

 

HEAVY SUPPORT:

Land Raider

- extra armor

- multimelta

I don't like this list as much as I like the pedro example list. However, it does have its strengths. For one, it has more melta, and the same number of heavy flamers as the pedro list. It also has bikers, which are arguably better in assault then sternguard. The bikers bolters cant do much against monstrous creatures and the like, but that's okay since they got melta for that. The bike captain is also a better close combat IC then pedro.

 

Basically, it's more of an aggressive list, with scouts either infiltrating or outflanking to claim objectives. I still think it suffers from lash and jaws, but hey.

[minigun762]

The entire th/ss+LR unit is one of those things I really don't feel need to be changed. They work just fine, and I have long since incorporated them into my general playstyle. Besides, why would I want to replace terminators who kill stuff in one assault phase, with stuff that is only going to tarpit a monstrous creature for a couple turns?

I misunderstood then, because I thought that was something you wanted to get away from.

 

There is nothing wrong with a squad of Terminators hanging out in a Land Raider as backup. And it would appear that you're considering going with the standard Land Raider, so 2 TL'd Lascannons will be helpful at contributing to those Daemon Princes and Tyrants going down quicker.

To go back to the original list, I would say that Pedro and the Sternguard (sounds like a band) are more of the "point sink" in my eye. I'm not sure on the cost of them since I'm at work, but I wonder what else you could buy if you dropped both, bought a Tactical squad to keep with 3 scoring units and used those points for a RifleDread or Combi Predator or more long range firepower.

 

As for my lists, I know they're nothing special. Its funny because I wouldn't want to play Biker troops but thats just because I think SM Bikers are goofy <_<

 

Minigun, you make some very valid observations and points, and I was curious as to how much you play as Loyalist SMs?

Not at all actually. My observations come from a Chaos perspective looking at the advantages that Codex Marines have over us (Biker Troops, Scouts, cheaper long range firepower, sane Dreadnoughts, awesome Fast Attack and great Land Raiders).

While Chaos has some great troops and we can make a viable army just spamming troop choices in Rhinos, alot of our other FOC slots are fairly weak save for 1-2 good options.

 

What do people feel the effectiveness of long-range firepower verus short-range firepower versus assault? That is something I know I've struggled with, as I have found long-range fire to be somewhat lacking do to the number of cover saves out there and a lot of games using Night-Fight. That and how forgiving the Vehicle Damage Table is unless you hit it with AP1. To me, this seems to have put a larger emphasis on assaults, as they are usually a quick way to take a unit out of the equation when compared to shooting, which seems to be more attrition-based

Assaults are normally more decisive, but they can go either way with some unlucky dice rolls. There is usually a much great level of risk with assaults so you want to stack the deck in your favor as much as possible.

Long range shooting helps to control what gets into assault (by denying mobility through destroyed transports) as well as weakening units that will have a big impact in assault (like taking off a few wounds from a Daemon Prince so you can Fist him in 2 turns instead of 4).

Loyalist Marines really work best as a shoot first, then assault the leftovers kind of army. This means the more emphasis you have on shooting first, the less powerful your assault elements have to be and since you have to rely on assault specialists for the most part, its usually cheaper/easier to stack the deck in favor of your shooting.

[Grey Mage]

Damn, this is probably the most thought-provoking discussion I've had on these forums. :D

Out of curiosity, but why is anyone having problems killing Daemon Princes from C:CSM in two turns?

 

To Clarify- if youve brought sufficient Long Range antitank, wouldnt firing upon the 180pt model thats the key to your enemies strategy make sense? And wouldnt a squad of 4 missile launchers, on saverage, take him down in 2-3 turns, tops? Meaning that at 1750pts there should be little reason you cannot wipe out one of them on turn 1, and another on turn 2, while shaking and/or stunning non-possessed enemy ordnance?

Well, it's not really that simple.

 

Let's say you got two daemon princes coming toward you. If the opposing player is any good, he will keep them in cover, giving them a 4+ cover save. He will also have two or three rhinos filled with zerkers, plague marines, and the like, coming alongside these daemon princes. Finally, he will have some obliterators, a defiler or two, or maybe even some vindicators.

 

This is one hell of a lot of targets for anti-tank fire. You will still need eight melta/lascannon/missile launcher wounds per daemon prince to take it down, due to its 4+ cover save.

 

I'm working around this myself, by getting nullzone and relying on fast moving anti-tank. This way I can have a shot at denying cover saves to things like daemon princes, ctan, and greater daemons, while at the same time going a long way towards nullifying their inv save. This way I can murder them in a single turn of shooting, which is what concentration of firepower + synergy is all about. I believe that is the right way to play vanilla armies.

Lets just say the tactic probly works alot better for my wolves, despite having less AT fire at range. I find it takes a Dread (TLLC) and 4 ML toting longfangs 2 turns to kill a Daemon Prince from CSM on a reliable basis. I see no reason however why that would change with Vanilla Devs, though to be honest I have only encountered a DP once with C:SM, as I usually bring Wolves and Eldar to tournies.

 

As for scouts, well, in KP missions, there IS a problem with them dying. Even if I keep them cheap, I will still probably buy them that heavy bolter, which means they still cost 150 pts, which is only 20 pts less then a full tac squad. I still don't think they're cost worthy.

Why would you add to the expense? If your taking anything on assault scouts it should be a powerfist, maybe a combi-weapon. Of course if your not running them in a set-up that is actually geared towards their mission they wont do well and are overcosted.

 

The entire th/ss+LR unit is one of those things I really don't feel need to be changed. They work just fine, and I have long since incorporated them into my general playstyle. Besides, why would I want to replace terminators who kill stuff in one assault phase, with stuff that is only going to tarpit a monstrous creature for a couple turns?

I'll approach this from the view of a potential opponent. I personally am less scared of 1-2 uber units then an army where I don't see a weak point really. I'm NOT saying you have a weak army but I find it easier to focus on killing 2 big units then trying to handle 5+ solid but non-glamorous units.

Well, I myself often play against Blood Angels. So I'm often facing upwards of 30 or more assault marines, all rushing towards me.

 

I find them much, much easier to deal with then a LR full of terminators and a killy HQ. I've personally never had trouble with marine horde armies. This is because you can safely assault marine hordes with tacticals, and be sure that tacticals are going to survive a round or two. TH/SS termies on the other hand go in and wipe out whatever it is they assaulted. They're a hammer unit at its best.

Why would I want to spend 600+ points on a single squad in a 1750pt game? Particularly one that is all but worthless against Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Tau... as the transport will be halted and most of the TDA gone in short order *in my experiance*. Between Brightlances and Railcannons to take out the transport and plasma to get rid of the rest, with perhaps some firewarrior support, it just seems astronomical for what it can do. After theyre done hitting you with enough fire power to wipe those out, theyll still have enough to stun a couple rhinos is the worst part.

 

I think LRs are much better than just a TDA delivery system, and having a 350+ unit *with HQ* riding around in them hurts the effectiveness of an army as a whole- because thats alot of points that are doing nothing while inside that raider, or a raider that is not going to be played effectively so you can close with the squad inside.

 

Instead Id rather have a unit of Tactical TDA, with a Cyclone and a couple chainfists. That adds to my antitank on the move, is a decent to good assault unit, and has amazing horde firepower for a five man unit. If you want the better save throw in a chaplain or a captain in TDA. Yes, theres alot of AP 2 weaponry out there- and the things that can dish it out are likely to be your top priorities anyways as they are almost always antitank weapons or simply marine slayers *plasmarifles*. And while its off topic- the chaplain in TDA is an amazing model.

 

The Landraider on the other hand can then do what it does best- targetted annihilation of enemy armor. Throwing in a small squad of assault scouts with a powerfist makes it scoring, and gives you a squad that hits with 27 MEQ attacks and 3 Powerfists, if you want more punch put the chaplain in here instead- it will vape most units anyways, unless your silly enough to hit a large TDA squad with it, or Nob Bikerz.