Creating a tourney All-Comers list with Vanilla Dex

[Brother_Fatiswon]

... because every single, conforming, non adaptive, Space marine player takes the Relic blade ...

 

Meh. Every space marine bike list takes a captain on a bike with a relic blade. Does that make them conforming and non-adaptive?

 

Does the fact that they all take bike squads make them conforming and non-adaptive?

 

Does the fact that I take tactical squads and put them in rhinos make me conforming and non-adaptive?

 

You're welcome to tarpit my bike captain. He's a disposable asset. I'm not taking my him because he's "sooooooooo powerful". Actually he kind of sucks. If I didn't need him to make my bikes scoring, I probably wouldn't take him at all. (although at 2000 I'd take him + a CC-equipped command squad). As I said, it's just about spending 30 points so that your 135 point HQ isn't a total waste.

 

Invention is the watchword for winning against the beardy-est of players.

 

On the one hand, I agree. On the other:-

 

1) 40k is not sufficiently combinatorially large for the "best" combos to remain undiscovered for long.

2) Playing a poor combo unexpectedly very rarely makes up for the fact that you're playing a poor combo.

 

If your idea of a good all-comers tourney list is doing your own thing without regard to whether it's good and hoping that the surprise factor will put your opponent off enough to make up the difference then that's your prerogative, but I respectfully (yet strongly) disagree.

 

Framing the question in a more productive fashion:-

 

You're playing C:SM Bikes. You must take a bike captain (or Khan) to make them scoring.

 

How would you, Brother_Fatiswon, equip your HQ, and why.

wow... you must of missed the number of Capt on bike layouts, i've posted on not only this topic but this page alone.

as for "doing my own thing without regard to whether it's good..." if i choose an assignment for a unit, and that assignment/objective is met. And by doing so, works together with the rest of my army's assignements, i should win, not draw, but win.

Common example of this is the Deep striking 5 man Assualt squad, who, if nothing eles, can tie up a heavy support/fire base units in HtH for enough turns that the tides of the battle ebbs in my favor.

In Fact, you're already locking yourself in a predictable set up, not bad or good, just predictable by limiting your thinking. "You're playing C:SM Bikes. You must take a bike captain (or Khan) to make them scoring."

*why do i have to have scoring bikes in a bike army???* who says... you?

 

What about taking 3 x fully decked out 8 man + attack-bike squads w/ 2 meltaguns and a Multi-melta, w/PW MB and Combibolter for the sgts 315x3= 945? Add Chapter master on a bike w/storm shield at 175pt and the 2 troops units also required... at oh lets say 410, no upgrades here.... that's 1530pts, so out of 1750 i'm still looking at 220 pts... left... hmmm lets think here... oh i know, lets drop a combi bolter from one the biker's sgts, that gives us 230... and finish off the list with 2 vindicators...

i've got 3 multa meltas

i've got 6 melta guns

i've got 3 melta bombs

i've got power weapons

i've got 2 AV 13 fronts

i've got 2 demo cannons

i've got 30 wounds at 5 toughness

i've got 2 10m Tactical scoring units (btw, if i drop the other 2 combi bolters, these guys, get upgrads, think PG/MM or PG/PC idk)

and i've got a rogue Chapter master running amok, at 24 inchs one turn and dropping NUKES anywhere cross the board AT STR 10 ap1 the next turn.

 

and what DON"T i have is a Capt w/ a relic blade at 165pt. and NO scoring bikes either. and as for why? Because " Invention is the watchword for winning against the beardy-est of players"

now are you tell me this is a gimmick list?

That is NOT "good" because it what i want to do, NOT regarding the, "oh you can't leave home with you it"

oh, and btw.... it's not me that's going to be tarpitting your honda riding Capt/wRB it's going to be some eldar player who's going to Cast Doom on you and smoke ya whole unit with his/or her Dark reapers...Or maybe a Leman russ punisher, and HOW many freaking dice can those guys throw at cha?? Me, i'd just drop an obital bombarment (str10 remember) and cause insta death on your "he kinda of sucks" 165 pt O'CappyTAN.

 

oh btw "He's a disposable asset" if you really think that...wow... i'm not even goin to touch that one...

[brother carc]

Capt w/bike and hellfire shells? 145

or capt w/bike and Plasma pistol 150

or Capt w/bike and Stormbolter 138 LOL

or Capt w/ bike and articator armor also also 150

 

What do any of these bike captains do if someone manages to catch them in close combat? 3/4 attacks at s4 allowing normal armour saves means youre 140 point model wont be able to fight his way out of a wet paper bag.

 

And to bring the whole thing full circle ... if you take ur Capt on a bike, w/ command squad on bikes, w/ 5 melta bombs (4+1) and 5 storm bolters, and you've got just about the Fastest most lethal Anti Tank unit, (add a chaplin w/bike/melta/SB for re roll MB attacks on armor for extra extra beardy behavior(oh btw it's 512 points for capt/n chap/n ComandSquad on bikes w/ 6 MB and 6 SB) that is still qutie usefull in anti horde/Tarpitting but you'd have to leave your Relic blade at home... (well you dont have to... lol) and then you dont need to take any more anti armor

 

First, you already have twin linked bolters. Storm bolters add almost nothing to this unit.

Second, you better hope the tank you kill is a landraider if you wanna get any value for your points cause pretty much any counterassault will tarpit/wipe this unit out. Youre investing as many points in this unit as TH/SS terminators WITH a landraider. Do you honestly think you'll get a similar return?

[Giga]

I think Brother_Fatisworn really wants to be different or something. :)

 

The thing is, no matter how you take it, a bike captain with a relic blade is still better then a chapter master with a storm shield on a bike. Orbital Bombardment is sweet when it hits, but since on average it will miss and scatter 7" you really can't rely on it too much. On the other hand, you can give that chapter master a relic blade or dual claws, and you'll have yourself an HQ that can do some serious damage in close combat.

 

Making a bike list without a bike captain is kinda pointless, too, as you'll be spending enough points on tacticals that, when you do get to the actual bikes, you'll end up with a very small amount of points you can actually spend on bikes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

What has been said already is correct; there are certain unit and wargear combinations that have proven themselves over and over again as good combinations that work within the context of most armies. If the stormshield+bike chapter master happens to work great for you, then that's awesome and you should use it, but you need to understand that for the majority of people that particular HQ just plain sucks (especially since it costs 175 pts, same as pedro cantor, in other words).

 

Those relic blade/claws bike captains and khans, as much as you hate their "comformist" nature (I still can't decide whether you've called us "comformist" to insult us, or to make yourself look cooler in your own eyes, or both) just so happen to be the best option for bike captains out there, and therefore the best option for people who want to have a full bike army.

 

EDIT: It's also worth to note that, while your opponent might be confused a little after seeing some completely unusual HQ combination (such as a bike captain with storm bolter), I'm hardly convinced that this will cause a "beardy player" (a ludicrous concept, that) to somehow play worse or be unable to adapt? I really can't see why any of the HQs you've mentioned are any harder to adapt to then the stock relic blade bike captain.

 

The RB bike captain is, if anything, quite killy and needs to be dealt with as he can potentially destroy vehicles and infantry alike with impunity. On the other hand, a bike captain with storm bolter, while cheaper, can be safely ignored for the entirety of the game, as his damage output is simply pathetic. Sure, he costs 27 points less, but seriously, those 27 points make the difference between a killer rabbit and your standard, harmless rabbit.

[gettothegone]

After some heavy playtest.

 

LSS + Scouts have scored 3 land raider kills, and numerous AV10 rear armor kills.

 

Even when in mid game, a good solid non EA tank stun can be worked into a 100% melta bomb shot using terrain.

 

Combine it with rifle dreads, and stuns now have an entirely new threat instead of just being stuck... now you're stuck and odds are, you're going to get a melta bomb in one of your exhaust pipes.

 

/pun intended.

 

Use terrain, and you have a 18" assault bubble with those badboys.

 

Raider kills were 1st turn... the storm and the scouts were usually vaporized... as so they should as all you're doing is the proverbial wasp nest with a stick game we all played as a kid.

 

They also chase foot armies off the table, IG and Tau both hate getting first turn assaulted... and their LD is terrihorrible when combined with the launchers.

 

If I could redo them, I think I'd go combat weapons on all of them, currently I run a shotty configuration. They're beneficial to a degree, but I think CCWs might have been a better call for the suicide scouts.

 

Bigger tournament this weekend, will post batreps and pics.

[Brother_Fatiswon]

for brother carc: 1st:dont let them catch you. Dont. he's your piece, learn some risk assetment.

 

2nd:LRC w/8 T w/TH/SS moving at best 12inch, at worst sandpitted by oh, lets say, LASH or an obital bombardment Vs. turbo boosting 6 melta bomb attacks on Armor w/ re-rolls and enough anti horde fire power to switch targets on the fly and have the range to hit.

 

3rd I'm guessing at 23inches, your 6 twinlink bolter shots are some how, better at killing bug/ork/guards in your world than 12 stormbolter shots into the same mob, that's still out of Charging or being charged ranged.... and still having the option to run after another AV target or putting out a 2nd round of shooting +Charging the following turn. i'll let you work those number out for yourself.

 

4th oh and btw carc this unit was written and posted to make a point about flexiblity, but i'll digress. We don't want to hurt any ones feels here.

is this a unit that would see the light of a toury? oh hell no, but i would field a command squad sans capt (he be attacted to some Vvs or tactical), on bikes w/ 4x Melta bombs, and 4xStorm bolters at 232 pts... and maybe with a couple of x2 MM Landspeeders, All the AV units against me, would be slag by turn 3 if not turn 4.... No 5 man/8 man TDA w/ TH/SS in a LRC is going to accomplish this by turn 3 or turn 6. Never.

 

For Giga the OP: at best a capt w/RB n the bike, will get to CC in the 2nd round, if he's not charged(unlikely because most player with caps on bikes go bundering forth), but tarpitted by say a mob of orks with 29 boys +1 nob w/bosspole and x3 big shoota 210pts) IF he lives to the end of the game, and is not attachted to another unit for more weight, he'll never see the light of day (t2:3attack t3:3attacks t4:3a t5:3 t6:3a) so 15 dead orks later, he didn't even get a kill point for his 165pts... i'm sorry but i'm not seeing the all blinding GRANDNESS of this IC set up.

sorry.

 

And as for Kantor, who of him i'm his biggest fan... go back and check out my piggy piggy rhino kantor list on page 7 of this string.

Does not move 24 inches, T5 or 3+ inv save.

and as for 7inches of scattering on the OB... proper target selection takes that into account. i'm dropping the OB plate on targets that have possible scattering and could "clip" other units if the shot goes astray. I'm sorry i didn't detail that out of you.

 

And i'm still completely lost on how it seems like both you and Mow, have assumed that i'm trying to win games thru slight of hand or tricky deployment. WHAT I AM saying is that codex is FULL of options and IF you and all the other Codiced marine players only take weapon and unit combinations that are "proven themselfs over and over again" then you run a greater chance (99.9) being countered by your match ups in world of tournements. Here's the FACT: Codex Space marines are simple to learn but nearly impossible to master. I'm saying why not try and push the envelope and see what it gets you... you may be suprised.

[General Retreat]

Sometimes you're pushing the envelope, but then sometimes, you've just licked too many stamps.

[mowglie]

wow... you must of missed the number of Capt on bike layouts, i've posted

 

I didn't miss them. I invited you to justify *why* you think they're better than the cookie-cutter.

 

if i choose an assignment for a unit

 

That's the point. If you choose an assignment for a unit, you ought to make sure that unit is good at the thing you're trying to do.

 

Making a gunline out of JP marines would certainly surprise me, but it wouldn't be much good. Assaulting me with a devastator squad would certainly surprise me, but it wouldn't be much good.

 

Your units should do things that they are good at. Captains are good at CC. See?

 

Common example of this is the Deep striking 5 man Assualt squad

 

Who immediately get vaporised since you can't assault out of deep strike.

 

*why do i have to have scoring bikes in a bike army???*

 

Ok, ok, I exaggerate. You don't have to have scoring bikes in a bike list, but believe me your list would be much better with a bike captain - even one without a relic blade.

 

Alternately, if you want a sniping HQ, take a bike-mounted MotF with a conversion beamer. It's much more accurate than the chapter master's 1-shot (because his BS reduces its scatter), and you can use it more than once. I don't think he even has to stay still to use it.

 

oh btw "He's a disposable asset"

 

He is. In an objective game, he already did his job by making my bikes scoring. If he takes out one of your ICs, or a MC before he dies, lovely. If not *shrug* I guess he distracted you.

 

No TDA w/ TH/SS in a LRC is going to accomplish this...

 

You seem to be misunderstanding roles. I can buy almost five MM attack bikes for the price of your command squad. Just as fast. Longer range. Better vs armour. Better vs infantry. Slightly harder to kill. TH/SS/LRC isn't for fast antitank. Brother Carc is just pointing out that your uber-unit costs way too much for what it does by using TH/SS/LRC as an example of something that is expensive.

 

I'm saying why not try and push the envelope and see what it gets you... you may be suprised.

 

There's actually been quite a lot of envelope-pushing in this thread. Exploring bike-only lists as an answer to the mech meta. Exploring HQ choices. Exploring core tactical squad wargear setups. Double-hammer lists. Double-sternguard lists. TLAC/TLAC spam. Using solo MotF with 13AV HS choices. The meta is adapting, we're adapting along with it.

 

Spending 138 points for two bolters, or 232 points for four meltabombs isn't pushing the envelope. It's suboptimal. Other units in the book do the same job either better or cheaper.

 

So, please tell me, which of the "captain on bike layouts you posted not only on this topic but on this page alone" do something that another unit in the book doesn't do better or cheaper?

 

At first glance, I say "none of them", but I'd like to give you the chance to explain why you disagree. So go right ahead, I'm listening.

[gettothegone]

I don't think he even has to stay still to use it.

 

Bikes give relentless..

[Brother_Fatiswon]

all of my responds to Mowglies are in [ ] if you care to read this dripple.

 

 

 

wow... you must of missed the number of Capt on bike layouts, i've posted

 

I didn't miss them. I invited you to justify *why* you think they're better than the cookie-cutter.

 

[My point is the Relic blade capt on a bike isnt your only choice.]

 

if i choose an assignment for a unit

 

That's the point. If you choose an assignment for a unit, you ought to make sure that unit is good at the thing you're trying to do.

 

[giving Relic blade to a Capt make him a one trick pony, CC only and not cheap if he's countered/tarpitted]

 

Making a gunline out of JP marines would certainly surprise me, but it wouldn't be much good. Assaulting me with a devastator squad would certainly surprise me, but it wouldn't be much good.

 

Your units should do things that they are good at. Captains are good at CC. See?

 

[again, as stated before... i'm am NOT suggesting any "trojan horse" tactices"]

 

Common example of this is the Deep striking 5 man Assualt squad

 

Who immediately get vaporised since you can't assault out of deep strike.

 

[guess you never heard of deep Striking into or behind cover, this futher leds me to think you don't really have a clue how to play... i mean, if you can't even land a single 5 man assualt unit behind enemy lines.. what eles does that say about your skills as tactical combat??]

 

*why do i have to have scoring bikes in a bike army???*

 

Ok, ok, I exaggerate. You don't have to have scoring bikes in a bike list, but believe me your list would be much better with a bike captain - even one without a relic blade.

 

[guess it plain that you don't seem to understand that bike are should not use in a "12 round slugfest, due high point cost and realtive numbers]

 

Alternately, if you want a sniping HQ, take a bike-mounted MotF with a conversion beamer. It's much more accurate than the chapter master's 1-shot (because his BS reduces its scatter), and you can use it more than once. I don't think he even has to stay still to use it.

 

[i've already listed how i would choose my Hq, in reply to your "lets build a list together" remember? chapter master w/ devsators x4 MS.] [now, if that's true then a Mof w/ converter beam, hmmmm....maybe there is hope for you....naw...]

 

oh btw "He's a disposable asset"

 

He is. In an objective game, he already did his job by making my bikes scoring. If he takes out one of your ICs, or a MC before he dies, lovely. If not *shrug* I guess he distracted you.

 

[i'm taking the high road on this, but i would never give up a rook or a bishop over a knight, or pawn.] [btw if ur capt dies, ur army lose his ld10, and ur "tactical core or objective holding bikers lose 2 points of Leadership, that must easier to route, pin, lash, psyche...]

 

No TDA w/ TH/SS in a LRC is going to accomplish this...

 

You seem to be misunderstanding roles. I can buy almost five MM attack bikes for the price of your command squad. Just as fast. Longer range. Better vs armour. Better vs infantry. Slightly harder to kill. TH/SS/LRC isn't for fast antitank. Brother Carc is just pointing out that your uber-unit costs way too much for what it does by using TH/SS/LRC as an example of something that is expensive.

 

[but you can't get 5 you can get 4 and only 4, thats the way the point system works and i can't image how 4 MM attack bikes are better than a command squad w/ FNP and stormbolters, i made this point already, so your not listening. You are just reacting, which... is why Space armies get whipped in GT's because the vas majority of player run them in a reactive fasion. which is completely counter to there nature.]

 

I'm saying why not try and push the envelope and see what it gets you... you may be suprised.

 

There's actually been quite a lot of envelope-pushing in this thread. Exploring bike-only lists as an answer to the mech meta. Exploring HQ choices. Exploring core tactical squad wargear setups. Double-hammer lists. Double-sternguard lists. TLAC/TLAC spam. Using solo MotF with 13AV HS choices. The meta is adapting, we're adapting along with it.

 

[last time i checked, the double sternguard, was posted by me...on page seven, and my NO Capt on bike BIKE i posted is crazy sic and death incarnet. and you know it. oh, and as for the scouts w/LLS coupled with Bikes.... yeah, i posted that too. so it seems like i'm the only doing on any thinking on this post... (sry gray mage i didn't mean it) i mean really... what you've suggested that we should run 2 full tacticals... wow, groundbreak. really.]

 

Spending 138 points for two bolters, or 232 points for four meltabombs isn't pushing the envelope. It's suboptimal. Other units in the book do the same job either better or cheaper.

 

So, please tell me, which of the "captain on bike layouts you posted not only on this topic but on this page alone" do something that another unit in the book doesn't do better or cheaper?

 

[sad to see just how stuck you are on this.]

 

[already addressed this, repeatedly.]

 

At first glance, I say "none of them", but I'd like to give you the chance to explain why you disagree. So go right ahead, I'm listening.

 

[meh. maybe you've learn something this time. i doubt it]

[Iron_Chaos_Brute]

Sometimes you're pushing the envelope, but then sometimes, you've just licked too many stamps.

General Retreat is entirely correct here. Your "tactics" aren't a transformative approach, they're different because they're useless. A captain w/ Sbolter on a bike? Really? If you're talking about a RB captain doing nothing and dying, how about not charging 30 man slogging mobs with it?

[Grey Mage]

Why in heavens name would you spend 5pts to trade an extra shot for twin linked? Its not enough of an upgrade for me to model it personally. If I ran a bike captain, I would consider the following to be good builds, all with or without meltabombs if I have a couple extra points:

 

Relicblade- cheap, efficient, killy.

 

2x LC- More attacks, very killy vs infantry.

 

Relicblade+Plasmapistol or Combimelta- expensive, but especially in a plasma-biker squad it can help out quite a bit. The plasma pistol actually does something that a TLBolter cant- kill tanks and terminators.

 

Relicblade+Storm Shield- If I expect to see alot of monstrous creaturs and really need that slight increase to my invulnerable save and am not in a command squad. Very niche.

 

Thats it. I wont go with a PW when I could have a relicblade fit nicely into even a 500pts list. I wont give him hellfire rounds because theyre just extra expense I dont need weighin him down.

 

At higher point values the only other option Ill consider giving him artificer armor- but thats almost the price of another biker somewhere in the list to its always a luxury item.

 

Efficiency is what its all about. In these kinds of threads I usually simply but down a relicblade captain on a bike, because were trying to get the most bang for our buck on a regular basis.... the more points we add to him, the more bang we need to get.

[brother carc]

OK clearly im gonna have to explain this REAL slow.

 

1st:dont let them catch you. Dont. he's your piece, learn some risk assetment.

 

Strange how you can effortlessly avoid combat but all the rest of us are endlessly tarpitted. We have a captain with RB on a BIKE. We will be choosing which combats we get involved in and when our captain does hit home we know we can rely on him for a certain amount of damage. We will not be charging solo into ork mobz.

 

I'm guessing at 23inches, your 6 twinlink bolter shots are some how, better at killing bug/ork/guards in your world than 12 stormbolter shots into the same mob, that's still out of Charging or being charged ranged.... and still having the option to run after another AV target or putting out a 2nd round of shooting +Charging the following turn. i'll let you work those number out for yourself.

 

Sorry for the mathammer but you asked for it:

at 23" twin linked bolters give 8/9 x 5 = 40/9 ~ 4.5 hits

at 23" storm bolters give 8/9 x 1 + 8 x 2/3 = 56/9 ~ 6 hits

 

So an extra 1.5 bolter hits a turn. Might be worth it but this unit is only going to kill a marine a turn playing this way so will never earn its points back. If you factor in the melta bombs it might have a chance but the fact is noone half decent is going to let you slag their tanks without being counterassaulted.

 

What you need to do is start giving us some credit for our tactical ability. Giving a bike captain a RB does not mean we are going to run him into the first available combat. There are many situations where a reckless charge would prove counterproductive. What it does do is use the captain's strengths, (high inititative and numbers of attacks) to create more favourable matchups and more opportunities to use him effectively.

 

You say your captain is more flexible but your captain is equally a one trick pony, only his trick isnt very good. Ours can threaten tanks, MCs and all standard infantry while not losing much in firepower to yours.

[mowglie]

Bikes give relentless..

 

Yeah, I just had to check that the beamer didn't have some kind of additional restriction like the Chapter Master's barrage does.

 

LSS + Scouts have scored 3 land raider kills, and numerous AV10 rear armor kills.

 

Glad they're working. Yeah, they're much better with BP/CCW. You win combats vs IG, Tau easily, and you can badly threaten Devastators, Broadsides etc. Then they run away with their Ld2. I really can't decide between a PF and Combi-melta + Meltabombs though. Maybe one of each...

 

maybe you've learn something this time. i doubt it

 

I read your post quite carefully, but you didn't really say anything.

[gettothegone]

Yeah, I just couldn't remember either till I got home to check for any special rules on the Beamer as well.

 

 

As for the whole Bike Captain, I think its safe to say that anyone who runs a bike army should understand that its a finesse army and not quite as sledge hammery as dual Raider TH/SS armies.

 

Much more difficult to play, but much more satisfying, and in the right generals hands, bike armies are absolutely ruthless.

[spartan249]

@brother

 

Personally, when I look at the captain's list of equipment, there's really nothing else that does better than the relic blade. I've tried storm bolters with hellfire rounds, thunder hammers, lightning claws, aux grenade launchers, and nothing compares with the versatility that the RB provides. Argue against this one to your own peril, as the statistics, logic, and tactical acumen are stacked against you. Personal attacks are also not very persuasive, you'll need to do better to show us any merit in other biker captain builds.

[Giga]

While what brother_fatisworn is doing makes makes sense on a superficial level (trying to figure out new options and loadouts is always a good thing), the way he goes about it doesn't make sense. The options he picks and the way he thinks about the established options are incomprehensible.

 

His attempt to prove that a RB bike captain isn't useful because he can be tarpitted with a 30 boyz mob is also quite incomprehensible. I mean, why would anyone send a solo captain against a boyz mob? It doesn't matter what gear the captain has, there's simply no good reason to do that.

 

This may be off topic, but it seems to me brother_fatisworn has personal reasons for going against established units/loadouts. In other words, we won't be able to convince him he's wrong simply because he doesn't want to listen and because his motivations on the subject are only understood by himself. I'm not trying to troll here, I'm just stating the fact as I see it.

I've tried storm bolters with hellfire rounds,

Hellfire rounds only work in normal bolters. It says so in their profile, and it doesn't matter anyway since hellfire round profile is rapid fire, anyway.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That being said, I've had some dual TL-autocannon dreads testing yesterday. Gotha say they were real damn good against other marines, since they made short work of rhinos and other dreads alike.

 

What I'm wondering about now is whether you guys have had luck with the missile launcher+TL lascannon shooty dread variant?

[minigun762]

What I'm wondering about now is whether you guys have had luck with the missile launcher+TL lascannon shooty dread variant?

 

I think it would perform roughly the same as the 2 TL Autocannons. It will be better against MCs and heavy infantry (due to AP2/3 instead of AP4) and more of a threat to AV13+. However you're paying more points for it and its worse against transports.

 

The main reason I wouldn't use it is that its 20 points more expensive and if I want cheaper Lascannons, I'd look towards a Combi-Predator instead.

 

A verison that I think has some good potential is Missile/Plasma. Decent against light armor and works well against heavy/light infantry and the same price as a RifleDread.

[Brother_Fatiswon]

While what brother_fatisworn is doing makes makes sense on a superficial level (trying to figure out new options and loadouts is always a good thing), the way he goes about it doesn't make sense. The options he picks and the way he thinks about the established options are incomprehensible.

 

His attempt to prove that a RB bike captain isn't useful because he can be tarpitted with a 30 boyz mob is also quite incomprehensible. I mean, why would anyone send a solo captain against a boyz mob? It doesn't matter what gear the captain has, there's simply no good reason to do that.

 

This may be off topic, but it seems to me brother_fatisworn has personal reasons for going against established units/loadouts. In other words, we won't be able to convince him he's wrong simply because he doesn't want to listen and because his motivations on the subject are only understood by himself. I'm not trying to troll here, I'm just stating the fact as I see it.

 

That being said, I've had some dual TL-autocannon dreads testing yesterday. Gotha say they were real damn good against other marines, since they made short work of rhinos and other dreads alike.

 

What I'm wondering about now is whether you guys have had luck with the missile launcher+TL lascannon shooty dread variant?

 

 

In other words, we won't be able to convince him he's wrong simply because he doesn't want to listen and because his motivations on the subject are only understood by himself. I'm not trying to troll here, I'm just stating the fact as I see it.

 

Funny. seems like you took the thoughts right out of my brain, beause i was thinking the same thing about you(s) (not personal giga)

and while i do understand that it's the makes the most sense, what i'm trying to do is get you guys to think about shifting your focus. What i'm Saying is, The RB dictates your capt's role, but it's not your only opintion.

 

What if (i know its asking alot) you can be sucussful, w/o the spending the 30/15 points on the wargear or the capt altogether. We all have to Take a HQ, costing a 100 and if on a bike an additional 35 points. But what pulls my chain, is the slave like fasion i see when people think: "in a all bike armies, you have to take a Capt and there for you must take a RB" and that's IT, and if you dont your OUT of the circle of acceptabilty.

 

No i've never been one to "fall in line". and maybe i do have personal reasons, none i can think of at the moment, but I HATE TO SEE PEOPLE LIMIT THEMSELF. Have any of you thought about just how hard a capt armed with a Stormshield w/ a command squad with 4xStormshields and bikes would be to remove from play. Perfect for waylaying Deamon Princes and other Big Nastys often see at GTs

 

An open mind, allows you to bring new tactics to your game.

 

Hell i even prove to don't have to take the capt to run a soild Bike army with 29 bikes and 2 rhino carried tacticals and that was dismissed because I dont happen to follow the Current line of thinking on HQ/wargear selection. Beside, wasn't it established on page one of the tread that an ALL Comers Dex GT army would need a libby? ok, take my Non-capt bike army and trade out the Chapter master for Libby on the Bike.

 

So, thats it, i'm done on this subject, i think we're all a little tired of it anyways.

all i'm really hoping for is that MoW learned that you DS ur Assualt Marines out of LOS and within 17 inches of your target. Sry couln't help it.

 

as fur RifleDreads... yeah, they are sic for sure, but i've kinda of been thinking about TLLC/TLAC Dreads...maybe even with VEN status for a point sink, Near guaranteed 3 kills a turn, be it Troops or transports...

 

 

oh and if the first time you missed it... here the re-vamped all comer NON capt on a bike w/RB GT ready scary hard BIKE army.

HQ:LIbby (pick ur own powers) bike 135 pt. (was changed. see below)

Troops: x2 Tactial 10m Squad w/ 2 plasma Cannons 2 Power fists 2 rhinos 470pt. (was also changed)

Fast: x3 8m Bike squad w/2 melta guns sgt w/PW MB and Attackbike w/MM 915pt.

Heavy: x2 vindacators 230pts

1750 on the nose.

 

Edit: changed due to illegal storm shield, as pointed out by spartan249, thanks man. :D

[spartan249]

HQ:LIbby (pick ur own powers) bike and Storm shield 175 pt.

I don't know what codex you're working out of, but you can't take terminator armor with a bike. Choose either a bike or terminator armor, can't choose both, despite how awesome that would look as a model.

[Brother_Fatiswon]

HQ:LIbby (pick ur own powers) bike and Storm shield 175 pt.

I don't know what codex you're working out of, but you can't take terminator armor with a bike. Choose either a bike or terminator armor, can't choose both, despite how awesome that would look as a model.

 

Word... sry about that... it was list building off the top of my head. How about we drop the illegal Stormshield, and add oh...idk...drop the 2 power weapons for a total of a spare 70 points and pick up a couple of Power fists for those tacticals...that adds some support punch and is nice and fluffy.

[Giga]

what i'm trying to do is get you guys to think about shifting your focus. What i'm Saying is, The RB dictates your capt's role, but it's not your only opintion.

RB doesn't dictate our captain's role.

 

What DOES dictate our captain's role is the fact that SM captain has no real options for shooting (just about the strongest shooting weapons you can give him are plasma pistols and combiweapons), has stats that are designed for close combat (high WS, high number of wounds, access to every single close combat weapon available to vanilla SM), and when geared up is just about the best dedicated close-combat generic IC available to vanilla SM.

 

Simply put, there's no way to make a good shooty captain. He can have a combi-melta to help out with vehicle busting, or a plasma pistol to kill an odd MEQ every now and then, or hellfire shells to be able to pop two wounds on a unit before he charges, but none of these are real shooting options. A real shooting option is a librarian with vortex of doom or avenger, or a motf with beamer. These guys can actually dish out some shooty death. The captain can't. At best, he can do some shooting support.

 

There are other limitations to the captain;

 

- he can't hold objectives

- he can't really support the rest of the army apart from opening access to command squads and bike troops

 

In short, as far as the captain itself is concerned, his best role is in close combat. It's what he's made for.

 

 

 

 

 

Again, you can argue against this, and I will listen to your points, but I'm pretty sure that's an argument you're going to lose. But anyway, I'm all ears, give me an example of a captain loadout that can fill another role apart from close-combat specialist. Some anecdotes of how you used them in actual game would be nice, too.

[Grey Mage]

What I see far to often, and find incredibly annoying in every case- not just this one- is the assumption that having a peice of gear or special rule and not using it constantly somehow decreases the effectiveness of your purchase. This is a logical fallacy.

 

Having a RelicBlade on your bike captain for the instance of CC is not a waste if you do not put him into an assault.

Have a Powerfist in your fire support squad is not a waste.

Having a Missile Launcher on your tac squad doesnt mean that they cannot move.

Not outflanking with a couple units that could because you have Khan in your list is not a waste.

 

Because frankly the situation dictates the tactics, situations you are likely to find yourself in dictates your list.

 

Captains are likely to end up in CC, either assaulting or being assaulted, thus it is prudent to give them some gear to assist them with it comes time and thus protect your investment- because at 135pts base for a captain on a bike you have already invested the price of almost five bikers into one model that you must take. It is worth spending another 30pts to cover a likely scenario.

 

Likewise, the loss of a single bolter shot in rapid fire range is not horribly significant, but the impact a downed or stunned transport can have can be, so a free missile launcher is a prudent choice. Just because you have it shouldnt change how you play your marines- if you want to use them agressively it doesnt hurt them to have it... and you are not forced in any way to think of them as IG because they have a heavy weapon.

 

On the flipside spending more points than are needed to cover your squads needs and weaknesses is inefficent- giving a captain hellfire rounds and a stormbolter on a bike is such an example as his shooting is already above average and these points dont increase his chances in a significant fashion. Or digital weapons without atleast a powerweapon, as a single reroll to wound is much less beneficial than ignoring enemy armor saves versus virtually any opponent.

 

***

 

As for the most recently posted list:

HQ:LIbby (pick ur own powers) bike 135 pt. (was changed. see below)

Troops: x2 Tactial 10m Squad w/ 2 plasma Cannons 2 Power fists 2 rhinos 470pt. (was also changed)

Fast: x3 8m Bike squad w/2 melta guns sgt w/PW MB and Attackbike w/MM 915pt.

Heavy: x2 vindacators 230pts

1750 on the nose.

 

I would instead propose:

Captain- Bike, Relicblade- 165pts.

Librarian- Bike- 135pts

 

Scout Squad- Powerweapon- 90.

Scout Squad- Powerfist- 100pts.

Bike Squad- 8+AB, 2x MG, MM, PW- 300pts.

Bike Squad- 8+AB, 2x MG, MM, PW- 300pts.

Bike Squad- 8+AB, 2x MG, MM, PW- 300pts.

 

Landspeeder Storm- HF- 60pts.

Landspeeder Storm- HF- 60pts.

 

Vindicator- Dozerblade- 120pts.

Vindicator- Dozerblade- 120pts.

1750pts.

For a bit more speed and scoring power, and a little more CC aswell.

[Bannus]

I'm not going to edit any posts - simply because it is too many, so I'll say it one time only:

 

Opinions are just that - opinions.

 

Leave the personal attacks and snide remarks of the forum or warnings will be issued.

 

Is that clear to all involved?

[Grey Mage]

:mellow: Yeah, sorry if I came off as snarky anywhere... I didnt mean to.

[mowglie]

Is that clear to all involved?

 

Crystal clear.

 

That being said, I've had some dual TL-autocannon dreads testing yesterday. Gotha say they were real damn good against other marines, since they made short work of rhinos and other dreads alike.

 

My worry so far with TLAC/TLAC is that the only thing that autocannons are efficient enough that I'd call them "good" against is AV10-12. They don't ignore MEQ saves, they don't insta-kill T4. That's excellent vs the current meta because they can pop... well, just about everything... but I find myself struggling against less meta-focused lists E.g. the example list that spartan249 posted way back on page six is going to struggle vs the same kinds of list that my triple-sternguard example list on page six struggles with - e.g. lots of orks - and that has me worried as to their effectiveness post-Tyranid codex.

 

(The advantage TLAC/TLAC has over MM-focused lists like mine is that it can pop transports from 48" rather than 24" ofc)

 

So, I'd want to mix them up with some higher strength and some anti-horde.

 

100 - MotF

 

210 - Tactical (Rhino, Flamer, Plasmacannon)

210 - Tactical (Rhino, Flamer, Plasmacannon)

 

125 - TLAC/TLAC

125 - TLAC/TLAC

125 - TLAC/TLAC

 

150 - 3x MM Attack Bikes

180 - 2x Typhoon

180 - 2x Typhoon

 

115 - Vindicator

115 - Vindicator

115 - Vindicator

 

1750 Points exactly.

 

That's not the kind of list I usually play, since you're kind of sitting back and letting your opponent come to you. You've still got a lot of 48" firepower (six twin-linked autocannons, eight krak missiles), but now you've got some flexibility to mop up the troops that fall out of the transports.

 

Seems worth a try.

 

all i'm really hoping for is that MoW learned that you DS ur Assualt Marines out of LOS and within 17 inches of your target. Sry couln't help it.

 

Ok, let's go with that for a minute.

 

First of all, let's assume I've got a juicy unsupported target, isolated from the rest of my army, with some LoS-blocking terrain within 18" of it that I can't get LoS behind even with my bikes or skimmers.

 

Then let's assume that your AM don't scatter towards me (out of cover and into LoS, or onto dangerous terrain), or away from me (out of assault range).

 

What's stopping me just moving my guys 6" away from your assault marines, leaving you out of assault range? There are very few things in the SM list that have to stay still. If I'm playing one, and I see some assault marines in your reserves that are capable of deepstriking and killing it, you can be pretty certain that either I won't leave it unsupported, or I'll let you because I'd rather your 205pt assault squad were punching my isolated 85pt dakka-predator than something more important.

 

I'm not convinced. Am I missing something really obvious?

 

What I see far to often, and find incredibly annoying in every case- not just this one- is the assumption that having a peice of gear or special rule and not using it constantly somehow decreases the effectiveness of your purchase. This is a logical fallacy.

 

I'm going to rise to this one because I'm guilty of it quite often.

 

You've got to draw a balance between efficiency and flexibility.

 

Obviously saying that not using your power fist every turn means it's a waste is a fallacy. You're not rapidfiring your bolters every turn either, so clearly by that logic the whole tactical squad is a waste!

 

The thing is that inflexible units - by design - are cheap and effective (i.e. efficient). Take the MM Attack Bike. It only has one job - killing tanks (although it's ok vs MCs). It's rubbish at shooting infantry, it's rubbish at assaulting, it's rubbish at being assaulted, it's rubbish at being shot at. That's why it's so cheap. Taking that cheap, inflexible unit and putting it in a situation where its strengths apply and its weaknesses do not is very powerful, but leaves you very very vulnerable to being outfoxed, outflanked, unlucky, or simply not having a target in the first place. I think that generally gets described as "fire style".

 

On the flipside, tooling up a squad so that it can handle anything on its own can leave you with a very expensive and unfocused squad. The squad on its own can deal with anything that gets thrown at it, but your army is at risk of simply getting overwhelmed because you're paying more points per unit. That generally gets described as "water style", although obviously I've chosen a very very extreme example.

 

So you've got to draw the line somewhere. Putting obviously unsynergistic choices together in a unit is bad. Giving your unit a narrow role and ignoring anything that doesn't directly contribute to that role is also bad.

 

(I should point out, though, that I'm fully aware that I've used probably the "best" example for a narrow unit, and the "worst" example for a flexible unit - I'm just playing devil's advocate to say that it's possible to go too far in the other direction. I like flexible units too! Just not so flexible that I feel like I'm spending so many points on them that I could play more units instead)

 

Experience (and don't get me wrong, I'm not at all saying that I have it...) plays a big part in that - knowing what situations come up enough that it's worth spending points to pre-emptively deal with them.

 

btw, I much prefer your bike list!