Creating a tourney All-Comers list with Vanilla Dex

[Giga]

What I see far to often, and find incredibly annoying in every case- not just this one- is the assumption that having a peice of gear or special rule and not using it constantly somehow decreases the effectiveness of your purchase. This is a logical fallacy.

I agree completely.

 

A lot of forum-goers talk of the game in terms of a perfect mathhammer ground, where every unit is compared to another unit on a one-to-one basis, and where every upgrade or weapon gets its full use 100% of the time. These people usually argue that there are "proper" ways to use certain units, and when making lists they often disregard such things like terrain, overcrowding syndrome, etc. Needless to say, no plan survives contact with the enemy, and when the actual battle starts there's no "proper" way to use your army. You do whatever you have to do to ensure victory.

 

There's a discussion I've seen (and engaged in) a lot on teh intrawebz. It's about what is the best LR transport for th/ss termies. Many people argue that crusader, or even redeemer, are by far the most superior, while the godhammer is ineffective. Their argument is basically; "when you have th/ss termies, you move forward with them to assault, hence crusader/redeemer are the best because they can move the most and shoot, while the godhammer sits back and shoots".

 

The idea is that you're either wasting a godhammer (if you rush forward) or wasting the termies (if you sit back and shoot). To me, both of these arguments are logical fallacies, because most of the time, there are situations when doing either one of those things is what ensures victory. Unlike crusader and redeemer, the godhammer gives this much-needed flexibility and can operate as a firebase.

 

However, most people will dismiss the godhammer immediately just because they feel they must get 100% use out of both their LR and their th/ss termies, completely disregarding the fact that getting 100% use out of units doesn't always coincide with winning.

[Giga]

So I'm toying today with Vulkan lists once again, trying to figure one that wouldn't be too much of a one-trick pony while still being rather good in an all-comers situation.

 

Here's what I came up with;

1750 pts

KP:12

 

HQ:

Vulkan – 190 pts

 

Librarian – 100 pts

- null zone

- the avenger

 

TROOPS:

Tactical Squad “Red” (10 men) – 240 pts

- flamer

- missile launcher

- power fist instead of bolt pistol on sergeant

- combiflamer

- rhino

 

Tactical Squad “Green” (10 men) – 240 pts

- flamer

- missile launcher

- power fist instead of bolt pistol on sergeant

- combiflamer

- rhino

 

Tactical Squad “Yellow” (10 men) – 215 pts

- flamer

- plasma cannon

- chainsword instead of boltgun on sergeant

- razorback

 

ELITES:

Assault Terminators (5 men) – 200 pts

- replace lightning claws with thunder hammers & storm shields

 

FAST ATTACK:

Land Speeder Squadron (2 speeders) – 140 pts

- multimelta x2

- replace heavy bolter with heavy flame

 

Attack Bike Squadron (3 bikes) – 150 pts

- replace heavy bolters with multimeltas

 

HEAVY SUPPORT:

Land Raider – 275 pts

- extra armor

- multimelta

Now, this is a pretty standard Vulkan list, as you can see. What I did was try and add a librarian to make the list more capable of coping with the all-comers situation. The idea here is to use some strong tacticals and vulkan's TL-ing ability to make up for the lack of the 2nd hammer unit.

 

Now, I'm toying with the idea of replacing one of the tactical squads (probably the tac squad yellow) with a unit of scouts with meltabomb+combimelta, in a land speeder storm with a multimelta. While this seems nice against mech, it does make me wonder how effective it'd be against hordes or the like.

 

The other idea is to get rid of the 3rd tac squad in favor of some added heavy support, such as combi-pred, dakkapred, TL-autocannon dread, or something. What I'm hoping for is to rack up on target saturation, and in doing so create a go-for-the-neck list that an opponent has to deal with asap. This would hopefully go a long way towards nullifying the lack of scoring units.

[Majere]

@Giga

I must first agree on your choice of classic LR against the Crusader. I am also a firm believer of tactical flexibility and the phobos pattern adds a lot more to our list than the other variants. I am also of the philosophy shoot them till they bleed and then hit then on the head to finish them off. This actually fits this mentality quite well.

 

On the third tactical squad: I have tested that for a long time and I always cannot accept the lack of killiness for a third scoring unit. Although the third tactical strips me of points that I could use elswhere, I always miss the security that a third scoring unit provides. Mu nest test will be to add a 5 man unit with sniper rifles and a missile launcher for only 85 points. This should not eat up too many points and you can always add their firepower against a unit that is far away.

 

On the librarian: Do you intend to join him to the combat squad of the third tactical? If not I believe that he does not add a lot if added to the already megakilly unit if Vulkan+termies.

 

MAJERE

[Giga]

On the librarian: Do you intend to join him to the combat squad of the third tactical? If not I believe that he does not add a lot if added to the already megakilly unit if Vulkan+termies.

The idea is to put him with a combat squad, into a razorback. This way the libby will be capable of adding support stuff and avenger-ing stuff, without drawing too much firepower to himself.

 

Another idea I had was to have a bike libby with null zone and vortex of doom, to accompany the attack bike squad, creating a highly-effective anti-vehicle platform.

 

Also, having the 3rd scoring unit sucks in one way (tacticals can't do much damage), but on the other hand I can't really think of a better option. What would you suggest?

In particlar the ultra competive ones that have to win at any cost, those players that can't agree to disagree, those that use every dirty trick every time they play. those player that see local pick up games as warm ups for tourneis and the gamers they crush as fodder for their uber-chew 'em up armies of routing by turn 3. In turn, those players drain the fun out of playing this particlar style of game.

 

Last time i checked... this was a thread for brain storming ideas on how to deal with possible GT armies, in the latest attemp by the braintrust at GW to increase sales of nids,guards,wolvies products as well as codice Marines...It was NEVER posted that "mine is better than yours. This muti day, muti page. reproductive measuring contest, all started, when a posting was questioned.

Nah.

 

Sorry m8, but players who want to play the game as it is aren't using "dirty tricks" or "crushing other people as fodder". What you need to accept is that many of us play to win. You may not believe this, but I, and many of us who post in this thread, only truly have fun when we're playing to win against players who also play to win. Only if both players approach the game with play-to-win mentality can we truly have fun.

 

When both players play to win, every battle ends up being the "hard to win" sort of memorable battle. Players who only "play to have fun", as far as I've seen, rarely if ever have anywhere near as much fun as I do when I'm playing to win. I'm sure I might be wrong here, but as far as my experience is concerned, this is true.

 

Simply put, I don't believe there's a "waac" or "cheese" list. If it's allowed within the rules, then it's all 100% fine with me. While this might seem harsh, I honestly believe that all players who whine about "cheese" and "dirty tricks" and the like, are just people who can't accept losing. I can't see any other reason why anyone would be annoyed by another player using the rules readily available in the game rules.

[Grey Mage]

Well since were trying to build a balanced list here with the objective of winning tournaments, then yes- this is going to be a play to win list, anything else would be absurd in context.

 

That being said, I put forth the following biker-based lists at four different point values, as Im currently have a bit of a love affair with the SM FA section:

 

500pts:

Captain- Bike, Relicblade- 165pts.

4 Bikers+AB- MG, MM- 175pts.

5 Scouts- Powerfist- 100pts.

Landspeeder Storm- Heavy Flamer.

500pts can be a bit rough for marine armies, this one relies on speed and twin linked bolters to win the day. You should never be in a fight you didnt choose at this point level with this force.

 

1000pts:

Captain- Bike, Relicblade- 165pts.

5 Bikers+AB- 2xMG, MM, PF- 235pts.

5 Bikers+AB- 2xMG, MM, PW, MB- 230pts.

5 Bikers- 2x PG, PF- 195pts.

Landspeeder Typhoon- 90pts.

Whirlwind- 85pts.

Smaller Squads allow for more tactical flexabilty, and three scoring units in 1000pts without sacrificing firepower is a great deal. The Typhoon is a bit vulnerable, but if the enemy is targetting it, thats fewer anti-bike weapons theyre sending down range. The Whirlwind is there to help against true hordes such as orks, nidz, and IG who otherwise can simply overwhelm a player with wounds.

 

1500pts:

Pedro Kantor- 175pts.

Captain- Bike, Relicblade- 165pts.

6 Bikers+AB- 2xPG, MM, PW- 260pts.

5 Bikers+AB- 2xMG, MM, PF- 235pts.

10 Sterngaurd- 2x Combimelta, PF, Razorback (TLLC)- 420pts.

Dreadnaught- TLACx2- 125pts.

Vindicator- 125pts

A bit more flexable overall, the Orbital Bombardment is a nice addition most opponents wont be expecting. The Sterngaurd, ACs, and PGs give a bit more midrange firepower to counteract mech armies and the near arrival of the new Tyranid list wich is likely to see a huge spike in the number of monstrous creatures we need to kill on a regular basis. I dont expect the vindicator to get a shot off most games, but it should absorb alot of firepower.

 

1850pts:

Captain- Bike, Relicblade- 165pts.

Librarian- Bike- 135pts. Avenger and Force Dome

 

Dreadnaught- TLACx2- 125pts.

 

Scout Squad- Powerfist- 100pts.

Bike Squad- 8+AB, 2x MG, MM, PF- 310pts.

Bike Squad- 8+AB, 2x MG, MM, PF- 310pts.

Bike Squad- 8+AB, 2x PG, PF- 320pts.

 

Landspeeder Storm- HF- 60pts.

 

Vindicator- Dozerblade- 120pts.

Vindicator- Dozerblade- 120pts.

Whirlwind- 85pts.

4-7 Scoring Units, good firepower, and again... speed. This list drops the Sterngaurd for more tanks and brings back scouts... who against artillery or Landraider+Termies should be rather devastating to the enemy plans. The Bikes can be combat squaded if needed, and are designed to give a variety of options depending on the opponent, and they should be fast enough for you to locate the right asset in the right position at need. Vindicators again may end up just being a distraction, but running a pair makes it more likely theyll punch through. Lastly, in a larger tournament like this a Librarian is something I consider a nessecity due to his psychic hood, while force dome will help with survivability a little.

[Brother_Fatiswon]

Well since were trying to build a balanced list here with the objective of winning tournaments, then yes- this is going to be a play to win list, anything else would be absurd in context.

 

1500pts:

Pedro Kantor- 175pts.

Captain- Bike, Relicblade- 165pts.

6 Bikers+AB- 2xPG, MM, PW- 260pts.

5 Bikers+AB- 2xMG, MM, PF- 235pts.

10 Sterngaurd- 2x Combimelta, PF, Razorback (TLLC)- 420pts.

Dreadnaught- TLACx2- 125pts.

Vindicator- 125pts

A bit more flexable overall, the Orbital Bombardment is a nice addition most opponents wont be expecting. The Sterngaurd, ACs, and PGs give a bit more midrange firepower to counteract mech armies and the near arrival of the new Tyranid list wich is likely to see a huge spike in the number of monstrous creatures we need to kill on a regular basis. I dont expect the vindicator to get a shot off most games, but it should absorb alot of firepower.

 

 

 

IMHO i really like this one of out of the other 3...due mostly to the balance and at 1750 level , adding say a Redeemer, for all of the Sternguard + Kantor to mob in. you could then use the Razor back in the same kinda of role, but maybe more of a pop and shoot from behind the LRR. I'm not seeing a 100pt shave option in the 1850 list that would not mess with over synergey(sp). IMHO

[minigun762]

1500pts:

Pedro Kantor- 175pts.

Captain- Bike, Relicblade- 165pts.

 

1850pts:

Captain- Bike, Relicblade- 165pts.

Librarian- Bike- 135pts. Avenger and Force Dome

 

My gut does not like the idea of 2 HQs at this level. Maybe if everything wasn't on a Bike but each of these guys is another squad or vehicle you could be using. You talk about Pedro and the Orbital Bombardment but it seems that going with a 2nd Vindicator would be a cheaper/easier/better way of getting a more reliable pie plate.

 

A big part of it is that I don't know if I'd want to run 2 "support" who are changing things into scoring units. Its a good idea for Bikes or Sternguard but both is asking for 20% of your army to be spent on 2 models.

[mowglie]

My gut does not like the idea of 2 HQs at this level. Maybe if everything wasn't on a Bike but each of these guys is another squad or vehicle you could be using. You talk about Pedro and the Orbital Bombardment but it seems that going with a 2nd Vindicator would be a cheaper/easier/better way of getting a more reliable pie plate.

 

Hm.

 

I think the librarian at 1750+ is easily justifiable. You need some answer to Lash/Sanctioned Psyker etc, and the hood is better than a kick in the teeth. I'd toy with giving him Vortex since he's relentless already...

 

The "controversial" option is taking Kantor + Bike Captain at 1500. I don't take two HQs very often at 1500 - as you say, 20% of my army on two models...

 

That said, it looks worth testing. I'd tweak it a bit (No footslogging, either 9x sternguard + rhino or a LR, more Combi-meltas, combat-squaddable bike squads), and that solo vindicator looks a bit vulnerable, but I might give it a shot.

 

I something like:-

 

175 - Kantor

165 - Bike Captain (RB)

 

310 - Bike Squad (8 models, Attack Bike, Multi-melta, 2 Meltagun, Power Fist)

090 - Scout Squad (5 models, BP/CCW, Combi-melta, Melta-bombs)

 

310 - Sternguard (10 models, 10 Combi-meltas, Razorback)

125 - TLAC/TLAC

 

065 - Land Speeder Storm (Multimelta)

 

260 - Land Raider (or Crusader, Multimelta)

 

= 1500 Points

 

That solo big tank still looks vulnerable, doesn't it? And I definitely feel like I'm wasting points on making stuff scoring...

[Grey Mage]

Id feel naked with less than 3 scoring units at 1500pts frankly, and Sterngaurd will put out more quality firepower than 2 tactical squads that you could purchase for their price, so I figured makem 10 strong, throw Kantor in there to givem 3 attacks base and get a little more firepower.

 

Still, Id be willing to drop the Sterngaurd down to a pair of tactical squads, and get a second vindicator or a laspred.

[minigun762]

I think the librarian at 1750+ is easily justifiable. You need some answer to Lash/Sanctioned Psyker etc, and the hood is better than a kick in the teeth. I'd toy with giving him Vortex since he's relentless already...

 

The "controversial" option is taking Kantor + Bike Captain at 1500. I don't take two HQs very often at 1500 - as you say, 20% of my army on two models...

 

That is a better of way saying it. I agree that most SM armies will probably have a Librarian hidden somewhere just for the Hood. The key with the Librarian is to keep him relatively cheap.

[Giga]

From my own experience, a standard naked librarian with a bolt pistol and force weapon is the most cost-effective option.

 

You get all the best things (the hood, null zone, and another psychic power of your choosing) in this package, and the libby himself has 3 power weapon attacks (4 on charge). You put him in a land raider, or an inconspicuous transport (say, in a razorback with a combat squad) and position the transport so that libby's 24" bubble is where you want it.

 

One use that I'd like to test out someday, is a bike libby with null zone and vortex of doom, riding with a mm attack bike squad, or a small biker squad with meltas. Sounds like rather fun, high-threat, vehicle-killing unit.

[brother carc]

If all we want is a hood could we simply ally an inquisitor/ inquisitor lord?

 

You could use him as a cheap firebase and to deter any deepstrikers and he also opens up options for assassins.

[Grey Mage]

Well the thing is... do we need assassins? Do we want to be involving other codices? And do we need the protection against deep strikers?

[Brother_Fatiswon]

Fire Style GT 1750 pt Dex Marine army...under construction....

 

2librarian w/ GOL Null zone 200

3 tactical squads w/ +40points of upgrades(thinking +2 PC +1 LC +2 PW/MB for 2 of the Sgt. )

Dread PC

Dread PC

10 man Assault Marines w/flamers x2 / sgt w/Mb

2 landspeeders w/x2 MM

3 Attack bikes w/MM

WhirlWinds x3

770 sub total (Fa/Hs)

430 HQs/Elites

550 Troops

total:1750 pts

paper for rocks, rocks for siccors(sP) and siccors for Paper

short verison:

Libby(s) Taxi the tacticals Via GOL and Hang to defend. risky i know but hey...

WhirlWinds = anti horde Land speeders anti armor/anti hero/Mc hunting /Assault squad Counter strike/ point defence. /Attack bikes anti armor /Dreads: anti MEQ/anti horde/ anti light transports, and 3 Scorning units ....

i pretty much think this is your made to order GT 1750 list, that you've been looking for.

btw this is a strict codex army (spent about a hour thinking about DH allies [iquistor lords w/hoods, and either an Assassian(cheese) or muti deamon hosts(pricey Cheese)and yes i know 2 hq... but if ur solo libby bites in GOL or round 2 ur SOL... so take two.

[Giga]

If all we want is a hood could we simply ally an inquisitor/ inquisitor lord?

Well, I for one also want null zone and avenger. Those two psychic powers are absolutely awesome.

[Newtoncain]

This is very interesting thread. Now I'm only on page 5, but I thought I'd throw out my core 1500pt force.

1500pt

MotF + PW

 

10 man Tac 1 -F/LC, PF+Combi melta, Razor w/ TLAssC

 

10 man Tac 2 -PG/ML, PS+MB, Razor w/ TLLC

 

10 man Tac 3 - F/PC, PP+PS, Razor w/ TLLC

 

10 man Tac 4 - MG/PC, PF+Combi Plasma, Razor w/ LC-TLPG

 

10 Man Tac 5 -PG/MM, PF+Combi Flamer, Rhino

 

I like Razors, i know they are expensive (w/ weapon upgrade) and easy to kill, but T1 I have (Tac squading) 4 LC, 2 PC and a ML for long range. If anything can make it to range 24, add in a MM, TLAssC and PGs.

 

At 2000pts I take out the MotF.

Add 190pt Chapter master (really thinking about changing this)

Add- 3 Scout bikes w/ cluster mines, Combi melta and MB

Add-Vindy, Whirlwind and Pred (TLLC/HB sponce)

 

At 2500 I take out CM

Add Chapy in Term, 5 ASS Terms and LRR w/MM and Chronus.

 

Disclaimer:

I try not to run any special charaters besides Chronus and Telion. My own Sm chapter you see.

I just love scout bikes, I only use groups of 3, Cluster mines always pay for themselves and flanking bikes to kill Tanks is always good. The Combi/MB don't always hit, but for just shy of 100pts = well worth the disruption thye cause.

Also thinking about using a Libby as the HQ now that the new NIBs keep deap striking Zones in my face.

[vhati]

Well an interesting topic I must say and a pretty long read. I'll just put in my 2 cents

 

The core of an army will always be 1 HQ and 2 Troops, so I'll give my opinion on those first:

 

HQ

 

Special Characters will change how an army plays completely, so play Kantor if you want scoring sternguard, Vulkan if you want to have twinlinked stuff Shrike for fleet, etc. These guys will determine a lot of your other choices so think about them (No need for Kantor if you have no sterguard and no need for Vulkan if you do not use TH, melta, and flamers ;) )

 

So onto the Vanilla characters, and I feel that there are 2(4) competative builds:

 

(Use a chapter master over captain if you feel that you need the honour guard or especially like the bombardment, but I feel the captain is the better choice.)

 

1: Captain with relic blade, digital weapons and combi-flamer

2: Epistolary Librarian, choose 2 out of Avenger, Null Zone, Gate of infinity

 

The captain takes the relic blade because it is the highest str weapon that still strikes on I5, with the new influx of tyranid MC, I included DW because that one reroll could mean an extra wound. I also included the flamer because of Orc mobs, tyranid small ones, and guard regiments, toasting a few of those will reduce the amount of attacks back should you attack them.

 

The Librarian chooses 2 out of the 3 powers that combine well, and as I find it a waste of having two powers and not being able to use them both in one turn I feel we should upgrade him to an epistolary. Even if you can only use one, you could charge and still use your force weapon. He also has a hood for protection against psychic powers.

 

Put both on bikes in a bike list, simple as that we go from 2 to 4 builds B) In battles over 1500 points I feel we should include both.

 

TROOPS

 

These guys are where I experiment the most in my lists, they never seem to satisfy me. The basic roles for troops are objective holder and/or objective grabber. Another thing that is considered important is mobility, so lets examine a few options:

 

For objective holding in your own deploymen zone people feel that a basic tactical squad in rhino is the standard choice, it has one heavy weapon so it can snipe, it has mobility and has staying power. The special weapon and equipment given to the sergeant seem to be more something of an insurance in case of being assaulted. Critics of this unit point to the huge cost for, if all goes well, one heavy weapon. Popular heavy weapons are the Missile launcher and the Lascannon. To me this unit has never proven it's worth in 5th edition. So I looked at another option:

 

1: 10 snipers, one with ML, and cloaks.

 

I upgraded the sergeant to a counts-as-Telion, because I own 9 snipers and Telion so that makes 10 and WYSIWIG, and it works surprisingly well, a BS5 ML is quite usefull. They have the same staying power as the tactical squad vs shooting, namely T4 and a 3+ save (vs ap3 weapons they are better, vs heavy flamers they are worse) They have the same amount of attacks in CC, and although they seem to lose out on mobility, they have the option to infiltrate and the move through cover rule. As an objective holder just put them on the objective with infiltrate and that's all the mobility they should have. So they are the same as the tacticals, although the cost of a Rhino cheaper. The bonus they have is the 9 sniper shots, which can threaten more units. The longer range also meshes well with that of the ML. With the upcoming nids MC's, the Space wolves terminators and the rhino's of our own faction, the snipers have a better chance of wounding them. As such I would include one of these units as an objective holder over a unit of tacticals.

 

The second function was objective grabbing, and again the durability and mobility of the tactical squad is considered important. Another notion is that the squad usually is considered a support unit. An 'Elite' unit has to clear the objective so the tactical squad can take and hold. Tactics that I see used are making use of the special weapon a unit brings, eg flamer, melta, plasmagun. Driving the unit into rapid fire range, disembarking and shooting the crap out of the enemy. Then round up the straglers with the powerweapon/fist equipped sergeant. In my opinion this tactic works better with other units:

 

1: 10 Sternguard, with two heavy flamers/meltas/plasmaguns in a Rhino, sergeant powerfist

 

Ok, you need Kantor for this and you stil need to fill the second troop choice with something, and it is also more expensive. But the benefits are quite big. You get 2 special weapons instead of one, you have special amunition which should increase the amount of kills you inflict, and in case of a counterassault you have more attacks to attack back with.

 

2: 8 bikers with 2 special weapons, an attack bike with a heavy wapon, sergeant with powerfist

 

So you need to put your captain on a bike, not a bad choice on it's own. Again it is a more expensive choice, and you suddenly become more vulnerable to Lash lists. You did include a Librarian right? ^_^ Another weakness is the chance you are taking when you assault an objective in cover, since a dangerous terrain test will kill your sergeant 9 out of 10 times, but that could just be me :P. The benefits are considerable though. You become T5, your bolters become twinlinked, you have 2 special weapons, your heavy weapon can shoot on the move, and you can move and assault further.

 

3: 10 scouts with bp/cb, sergeant with combi-weapon and powerfist

 

a cheaper option, but also with some drawbacks, you lose out on your special weapon (imitated for 1 turn with the combi-bolter, but then again normal sergeants could bring it as well) Again the vulnerability to lash/templates. and the loss of 1 BS/WS and an 4+ armour save. You also lose the ability to rapid fire. So what are the benefits? The option to infiltrate, scout and move through cover will guarantee most assaults into cover, and they have an extra attack over normal marines, and did I mention that they were cheaper? They combine very well with Shrike, with fleet they can assault that much sooner, and it allows for first turn assaults

 

4: 5 scouts with bp/cb, sergeant with powerfist, land speeder storm with a heavy weapon

 

a cheaper option that uses up 2 FOC slots, that is fragile, has lower BS/WS/armour. However, It allows for first turn assaults, has a large number of attacks, can make last turn grabs more easily, and has the option to infiltrate (outflank). It can also shoot its heavy weapon on the move, while it loses its special weapon, this usually is an improvement

 

5: 5-6 tacticals, sergeant with combiweapon and powerfist, in a razorback.

 

This is also a cheaper option, it loses bodies, access to special weapons, and a couple of attacks. However, the powerfist is still there, and it now has a heavy weapon capable of shooting on the move. So it is easier to take multiples.

 

CONCLUSION

 

In my opinion the 10 man tacticals squad mounted in a rhino is dead, for each function there are better options available. Currently I am playtesting 1 sniper quad, 1 LSS squad and 1 razorback squad, and the feeling that my troops are wasted points is slowly changing. When I finally get bikes I will playtest those too, but for now I feel that others are in a better position to discuss those. In 1500 points I would say that with a basis of 1 captain, 1 librarian, 1 sniper squad, and 2 other alternative troop options a tournament player cannot go wrong far.

 

If people are interested I will also give my opnion on how to add to this basis...

[mowglie]

1: 10 Sternguard, with two heavy flamers/meltas/plasmaguns in a Rhino, sergeant powerfist

 

Ok, you need Kantor for this and you stil need to fill the second troop choice with something, and it is also more expensive. But the benefits are quite big. You get 2 special weapons instead of one, you have special amunition which should increase the amount of kills you inflict, and in case of a counterassault you have more attacks to attack back with.

 

Kantor makes them scoring, but doesn't make them troops.

[vhati]

I know, that is why the fact that you still need to fill the second troop choice is a negative trait, the first troop choice being the objective holder. But for objective claiming you only need a scoring unit on it right? so with Kantor the sternguard can still claim objectives, and my point is that this unit does it so much better than rhino+tacticals.

[minigun762]

CONCLUSION

In my opinion the 10 man tacticals squad mounted in a rhino is dead, for each function there are better options available.

 

I think you make some good points but I would disagree with it being dead. The reason for this is that alot of the alternate builds (Bikers/Sternguard) require you to field a particular HQ. That cost has to be figured into the equation whereas a standard Tac Squad can be used regardless of your choice of HQ.

[Grey Mage]

Frankly, the main reason that the 10 man Tactical isnt dead is because at the end of the day 40k, any GW game, and arguably any wargame relies on volume of fire to work- the more attacks you have going downrange the stronger your army. A line of Bolters will always be impressive, and always do well. If you dont have volume of fire your giving your opponent the advantage of volume of wounds or armor saves... there be no two ways about it.

[vhati]

I understand, maybe I should restate it as tactical squad+ rhino is a suboptimal choice. ;)

 

But let's examine the price increase shall we? The captain that I'm suggesting costs 150 points, Pedro costs 175, an increase of 25 points. If you went with an chapter master in the first place it would cost you the same. So for 25 points extra you would make your sternguard scoring, in my opinion worth it. 1 sniper squad, 1 cheap troop (like scouts+lss, or 5 sniper scouts), 2 sternguard should make a nice base for a tournament army

 

The biker captain will cost you 35 points extra which make your bikers troops. again negating the need for normal tacticals around 200 points. So again not that expensive. If you play a bike list heavy list you would already buy 2 bike squads right so for 35 points you would negate the need for at least 1 tactical squad (if you still play 1 objective holder squad, like the squad squad) so you would actually save 165 points right? You could look at it this way :cuss

 

And the last option of the razorback squad is in my opinion always superior to 10 tacticals+rhino. A Rhino squad will cost you 230 points at its cheapest (remember powerfist equipped) a Razorback squad would cost 165, or 200 for the most expensive Razorback version so at worst you'll be paying 30 points less for a powerfist, combiweapon instead of special weapon, and TL heavy weapon that is capable of firing on the move.

at best 65

 

So all in all, that is why I feel a standard tactical squad is suboptimal/dead ;)

 

*edit*

 

@ grey mage: with the points saved you could buy other units that could fill a gap or buy more bolters in a stronger/different unit so it would still look dangerous right?

[Grey Mage]

Well consider the price difference in the squads too though- 10 Sterngaurd is a naked 250pts, while 10 Tacticals is 80pts less than that. Sure, you get alot for those 80pts... but you also take up a valuable elite slot, and are incapable of hurting tanks at range. A tooled up SG unit with a Transport is around 340-350pts, a good 100pts more expensive than the tactical squad with a similar tooling and transport.

 

Scouts on the other hand simply cant get transports, meaning youll either have to take up FA slots that you may or may not have, or have them be static and/or footslogging. And while they are cheaper their firepower suffers from a lower BS, meaning that point for point they have no edge over tacticals in the end.

 

Bikers on the other hand are 25pts a peice, but lack sterngaurds firepower or CCW ability, instead getting speed and durability in its place. Again, a well equiped squad is just over 300pts, and needs a specialized captain to make them scoring- though they are IMHO the best troops choice available to a marine player, they by no means invalidate the use of Mounted Tacticals.

[Brother Captain Josef]

Why so little love for mounted tactials? I have found they are an excellent way to get lots of high durability/versatility models on the table. My only gripe is that a rhino only has space for 10 models so you cannot hide a suprise HQ in there with them.

I would argue that bikes being more durable is highly subjective and is something we could debate all day. Yes they are awesome but you get less for your money (which in itself reduces relative durability) and they are particularly vulnerable to high strength low AP pie plates that you cannot deny that every GT army is gonna have.

 

You could argue that you should take a mixture, perhaps tac squad for objective camping and bike to nab opponent/free objectices but I am a firm believer of target saturation and giving my opponent difficult decisions. When you field different types of units (foot slogging / mounted / bikes) you are giving your enemy a clear indication of what to use his offensive assets on. ie. pie plates and anti infantry for op1+2 and anti tank on op3. When you saturate (spam if you will :) ) one type of unit he has to make more calculated decisions on what to fire at.

Given codex access to cheap and effective armour like the pred and dread variants and the usefullness of LR+TERM (lets not digress back on to that one please!!) it seems fitting that you should mount up the tacticals in Rhinos etc so your opponent has to choose what to aim his anti armour at. I am play testing 3 mounted tac squads ( ~700pts with added goodness) with preds + LR with upto now reasonable success. Pred + LR take majority of anti armour fire then tacs dismount infront of something and rip it to bits with ~60 S4 shots and a bag of flamers. Since this I have been unworried by hoards and have on occasion dropped an MC with nothing other than volume of fire.

 

Horses for course I suggest but on reflection I would argue that if your gonna go one way or the other have a think about spamming it :D

[Giga]

The Librarian chooses 2 out of the 3 powers that combine well, and as I find it a waste of having two powers and not being able to use them both in one turn I feel we should upgrade him to an epistolary. Even if you can only use one, you could charge and still use your force weapon. He also has a hood for protection against psychic powers.

Eh, are you sure about this?

 

An epistolary librarian costs 150 pts. An epistolary librarian on a bike costs 185 pts.

 

The way I see it, that's WAY too expensive for a character that doesn't have an invulnerable save and that also pretty much sucks in anything except support (and occasionally incinerating some traitors/xenos with avenger).

In my opinion the 10 man tacticals squad mounted in a rhino is dead, for each function there are better options available.

Nah. Tactical squads can't do much on their own, but if you play them the way they were supposed to be played (as a support unit), they will do just fine.

 

Furthermore, there are ways to make them do considerably more damage;

 

In a Vulkan list, giving them a flamer and combiflamer makes their rapid fire A LOT more dangerous then normal.

 

In a Pedro list, with Pedro nearby, your tacticals get a bonus attack and are stubborn, which makes them better then regular chaos marines.

 

If you got Sicarius, you can also have a str 10 lascannon in your tactical squad, which is a real nice thing, to be honest.

 

I know it isn't much, but there are ways to make good use out of tac squads. And besides, they're still MEQ and they still have ATSKNF, which on its own makes them rather survivable. Combat squads is really useful here, too, as it allows you to adapt to any situation.