Creating a tourney All-Comers list with Vanilla Dex

[mowglie]

Yeah. I rather like the 10-tactical + rhino.

 

The trouble with taking sniper scouts as a home objective camper is that they die if anything so much as sneezes on them in assault. Their maths is really bad too. Even if you don't take camo-cloaks, they're expensive for the killy you get out of them.

 

The trouble with taking BP/CCW + LSS is that you really need the option of treating them as expendable, otherwise you're not getting anywhere near the full potential out of them. They're much better as a 3rd troops choice so you don't *have* to use them as an objective taker.

 

Obviously you've got the option of making something else scoring (Sternguard, Bikes), but you *do* pay for it.

 

You say "Kantor is only 25 points more than my Captain", but I say he's 75 points more than my Librarian - plus you pay 80 points more for the sternguard squad, plus the elite slot. I don't see many people playing non-bike captains. You wanna build your list around Kantor or a Bike Captain, that's great, but clearly they're not the only options. Heck, unless I'm really making an odd list, I'll play two tactical squads even in a kantor/20-sternguard list.

 

I love sternguard, but I think there's always a place for two flamer templates and 15 S4 AP5 shots with a 26" threat bubble.

[fudal78]

I think an important note to make about Tacticals in Rhinos, particularly when plaing horde armies is to dismount your guys before the vehicle gets charged. A canny player will attempt to surround the vehicle so that if he destroys the transport you will not be able to deploy the unit inside and they will be lost as well.

[Brother Captain Josef]

I think an important note to make about Tacticals in Rhinos, particularly when plaing horde armies is to dismount your guys before the vehicle gets charged. A canny player will attempt to surround the vehicle so that if he destroys the transport you will not be able to deploy the unit inside and they will be lost as well.

 

Absolutely! Using your Rhino as a shield from oncoming monstrous gribblies is a sound tactic also as it costs the gribbly movement to go round it and can if used right deny an assault move into your squad. Works slightly less effectivly on hoards as the squad's frontage tends to allow models on the perifery to assault directly around the Rhino but you can decrease the number fo incoming attacks that are usually vital to the effectivness of a hoard assault.

[Warprat]

The trouble with taking sniper scouts as a home objective camper is that they die if anything so much as sneezes on them in assault. Their maths is really bad too. Even if you don't take camo-cloaks, they're expensive for the killy you get out of them.

 

The trouble with taking BP/CCW + LSS is that you really need the option of treating them as expendable, otherwise you're not getting anywhere near the full potential out of them. They're much better as a 3rd troops choice so you don't *have* to use them as an objective taker.

 

 

To avoid using an extra Kill Point, you can pretty much take a full squad of scouts and divide them whenever KP's are not an issue. Four snipers and a heavy in one squad, the sarge and four BP/CCW in the other (w/Storm.) But that leads to the problem of wasted shots, should Kill Points demand that the scouts be fielded as a full squad, and not combat squadded. That, and the Storm is left to support as a half effective Land Speeder.

 

Given the above, what would the best weapon loadout on the sarge and Storm be? Flamer has the benefit of auto hit on BS3, so that is probably the best... but is melta more useful, more often? Also, would it be better to mix the weapons in the close combat squad, (say 2 with BP/CCW, and 2 with shotguns) to utilize wound allocation?

 

One sniper rifle shot is roughly equal to one bolter shot. If a defending Tac squad would get one long range shot bolter shot, then a rapid fire shot off, Scout snipers should be able to average roughly the same performance over 3 turns. Which the snipers can do easily with the 36" range.

 

Scouts also have the ability to infiltrate and act as counter infiltrators. With the realitively small amount of Space Marines vs. other armies, refused flank can be very usefull. Scouts can infiltrate to offset enemy setup, stacking deployment even more in our favor. Or, at least neutralize a weak area somwhat, by deneying other infiltrators.

 

Scouts bring in capabilities that other units don't have. Generally, I would say that Tacs w/Rhinos are better. But a Scout squad as a 3rd troop option might be pretty good...

 

Warprat ;)

[spartan249]

I have been testing my dreadnought list extensively, and I found that the rifledread configuration is disgustingly effective at taking down transports, but only mediocre at taking down other real threats like MCs and high armor saves. So, I started experimenting with a TL Lascannon & TL Autocannon. While this made my dreads more expensive, transports were popping even faster, I had a decent chance each shot to wound MCs, and most other targets actually felt threatened by my 6 Lascannon tottin dreads. Because of the prohibitive price of the lascannons, one tactical squad had to go, but despite the lack of scoring units, I won quite a few of my games with this list simply because I cut the opponent's legs out from under them so quickly that they were forced to footslog their way to me or the objectives.

 

Going to continue testing this idea out against other opponents like the new tyranids and other footslogging type lists to see if there are any inherent disadvantages when facing true marching lists.

[Captain Idaho]

I think an important note to make about Tacticals in Rhinos, particularly when plaing horde armies is to dismount your guys before the vehicle gets charged. A canny player will attempt to surround the vehicle so that if he destroys the transport you will not be able to deploy the unit inside and they will be lost as well.

 

Although a danger, it isn't that much of a worry anymore as the emergency disembarkation rules enable the transported unit to deploy anywhere within 2" of the vehicle if unable to deploy from the access points. Of course you are automatically pinned if that happens, but at least it ain't the end of the world for the unit inside.

 

I would suggest staying in the transport for as long as possible, only disembarking when you need to rather than because you are scared of being in the transport when it dies. Unless your rolls are like mine (I failed 6 out of 8 armour saves from an exploding Rhino) you shouldn't lose more than a handful, and when faced with a charge from a unit of 6 Fiends of Slaannesh you are better losing 4 Marines in the destruction of your Transport and getting another turns shooting off against them, than letting them charge your Tacticals early.

 

Remember if the opponent destroyed the transport the unit inside only suffers damage on a roll of a 6, and the S3 blast can claim some of them too.

[Gornall]

Although a danger, it isn't that much of a worry anymore as the emergency disembarkation rules enable the transported unit to deploy anywhere within 2" of the vehicle if unable to deploy from the access points. Of course you are automatically pinned if that happens, but at least it ain't the end of the world for the unit inside.

 

Actually found out (the hard way) this isn't actually true. The way the rule is worded, if your opponent pops your transport and you have to emergency disembark your guys cannot act for the remainder of the player turn. So on your turn they're back to normal by pure RAW.

 

Even more reason to stay in your transports for as long as possible. TBH, in most mech on mech games, he who gets out of their transports first loses.

[Lord_Caldera]

Wow, what a read! You guys all make some great points, but there is one thing which seems to be lacking to me (though I have never played in a tournament environment): drop Dreads. Not necessarily Dropclads, but the standard as a shock unit, with a heavy flamer and a multimelta. I find mine to be quite effective every game, horrendous melta-luck notwithstanding. What do you tourney-savvy fellows think of them? And would an assault cannon be a better option than the multimelta for tank hunting and general synergy with the flamer?

[Giga]

Drop dreads aren't worth the price, IMHO. The chance a single melta will do something useful is rather slim for the price, actually, and 9 times out of 10 the dread is going to die on the turn it arrives. Its only real purpose lies in drawing lots of fire on the turn it arrives, hence making it easier for the rest of your army to advance. If it does kill something with its melta, then that's an added bonus.

 

Of course, if you're really lucky with those single melta shots, and you get to kill land raiders, leman russes, etc. on the turn your dread arrives, then I say excellent - if it works for you, you should use it. However, for most of us, that single multimelta shot tends to miss more often then not (I know mine misses virtually 100% of the time).

[Gornall]

It can be useful in a Vulkan list and if you resist the temptation to OMGDROPRIGHTNEXTTOHIM. Use the DP to put yourself into a position where you outrange your opponent's meltaguns but can still waddle into the fray on Turn 2. If you get a MM shot of that's great. If not, just pop smoke and run to get a better position.

[gettothegone]

Some thoughts after having played the TLAC/TLAC dreads, and a new army list.

 

TLAC/TLAC dreads usually allow for MC's to make their saves, but right now I don' see very many with 2+ running around.

 

Combined with null zone.. I've whacked C'Tans.

 

In mass I've whacked Avatars before they even get to move.

 

I stopped counting Rhinos / Chimeras.

 

Overall, just because you can't break a 2+ save, doesn't mean you can't cause a LOT of easy wounds on something you wouldn't normally be able to. Thing is you have to be smart with your target selection and you have to have synergistic units that go along with them.

 

I think one of the biggest things that I see around, which are incredibly expensive are IG Chimera spam lists, technically taking the LEAST AMOUNT OF POINTS possible, and cramming it into the best units possible for the price.

 

So I was thinking... how can you apply this to marines....

 

TLAC/TLAC is obviously on my plate... but what else fits this?

 

Dakka Preds... certainly, low points 8+ str5 shots.

 

Typhoons with heavy bolters / typhoon launchers.

 

Then I can cram a bunch of razorbacks in that list to round out the long range TL'd Lascans.

 

Lo and behold I found many many lists out there on the net that centralize around this.. one being a cheeky Space Wolf spam list on Stelek's website.

 

So this is my current list, soon to be reality once the models come in.

 

1 @ Librarian / Bolter *Null Zone / Gate *

5 @ 5X Tacticals / Rhino *TL LASCAN*

3 @ TLAC/TLAC Dread

3 @ Typhoon Land Speeders / Hbolter

3 @ Pred AC/HB

 

 

56 S5+ Shots

29 S7+ Shots

5 Scoring Units

Null Zone / Hood

Speed

AV13

Lots of 48" range.

 

 

The only real downside I see is Killpoints, AV14, getting jumped on by a seized initiative, extreme open tables.. with Tau. While yes you have 5 TL'd Lascannon shots, They're not reliable AV14 killers.

 

So far I've enjoyed what I've played with this list, and I absolutely never ever leave home without my Rifle Dreads, they are a staple of any army I build now. I've become very comfortable with using variants of this army prior to this build, but this capitalizes on items I never use, or builds on items with a lack of redundancy.

 

So in closing.

 

SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM

[Grey Mage]

Dont forget a supreme lack of CC ability- an army with decent outflank, or god help you DE raiders on a table with decent cover, or any army on DOW deployment- and all of a sudden you have nothing to counter assault with, and your forces will table in less than three turns.

 

SPAM is lame, only hawiins like it :D.

[minigun762]

I'd agree that the list would be alot stronger if you balanced it out a bit. Hell even taking 3x10 Tac squads in Rhinos with Power Fists would give you some kind of counter-assault force (albeit a weak one) and you could always take Plasma/Lascannon and fire it from the fire point if you really want to. I also think the above army would be better with either 3x Whirlwinds or 2x Vindicators as you already have a fair amount of direct fire multi-shot weapons.

 

As for this topic as a whole, considering its run 12 pages now, what about trying to go through it and create a stickie with the main points/thoughts/theories.

[gettothegone]

The problem is, and this comes from my own experience and its quite possible others have had better success.... but once you start tacking on the pfisted tactical squads, you're looking at 230 pts per squad along with lascan / plasgun and now you're 245ish, with no ability to move and fire at all with a liability to lose a str 7 weapon if you rapid fire it... which you'll need to since you're moving. In fact its now pretty much taken 800 pts of the army and made it smaller, easier to disable, and completely immobile should you want to hit anything at 48" of range. It's a dangerous combo that doesn't offer much once people are within 12" where you can be effective while moving.

 

And the reason I felt this way, because over in the corner here.... the 3 rifle dreads are taking names and marching 6" every turn.

 

Don't forget a supreme lack of CC ability- an army with decent outflank, or god help you DE raiders on a table with decent cover, or any army on DOW deployment- and all of a sudden you have nothing to counter assault with, and your forces will table in less than three turns.

 

Lack of CC... completely agree, I have no answer other then lots of bullets and smart play to minimize hits but I have no outright answer once I am locked down.

 

I think you and I see downsides differently... mine spawn from things that don't need to have any special situations to exist. The rest of the situations you mentioned are all strategically related problems rather then just pure "Hrm I have no answer for this" situations.

 

If you hang out on a table edge and you know there's outflanking units... boooo.

If you spread your very vulnerable army along the table and let your enemy refuse flank you... ouch.

If you sit still allowing all those power claws automatic hits... yeesh.

If you feed your army to someone piecemeal... bagoooo.

 

I don't think anyone in this thread plays like that, or anyone here that DOES play like that, is looking to be more competitive with this particular codex.

 

Some of the armies we're discussing here require a lot of finesse to play, and a bit more dedication to the game to purchase and paint. Not saying mine requires finesse, its pretty point and click, but once things get close, there's lots of nuances and formations you can use to minimize damage and generate cover saves for yourself.

 

For example, simply moving 12" makes it that much more difficult to assault said tank, or a well placed AV13 tank shock could force some crucial LD checks.

 

On the other hand, if someone plays some AV14, no amount of tactics is going to change the requirement of needing 6s to pen, or the fact that rail guns will out range me for at least a turn.

 

This isn't to say that what you said didn't make any sense, but I think the advice you gave is more how to avoid getting punked and actually adds to any shooting based army by way of experience. I think what could be done is to start a pure tactics thread which could offer advice for those looking to get a bit more tactically reinforced with their armies.

 

Also... Spam was a cheap alternative to meat in college..... it also allowed me to buy more liquid bread to wash the taste down.

 

EDIT: DE Raider lists have a rough time with the range, and they're made out of paper. I like playing DE with this list. I hate playing Mechdar, that's a complicated game.

[spartan249]

Well, looks like someone finally agrees with me.

[Grey Mage]

Don't forget a supreme lack of CC ability- an army with decent outflank, or god help you DE raiders on a table with decent cover, or any army on DOW deployment- and all of a sudden you have nothing to counter assault with, and your forces will table in less than three turns.

 

Lack of CC... completely agree, I have no answer other then lots of bullets and smart play to minimize hits but I have no outright answer once I am locked down.

 

I think you and I see downsides differently... mine spawn from things that don't need to have any special situations to exist. The rest of the situations you mentioned are all strategically related problems rather then just pure "Hrm I have no answer for this" situations.

 

If you hang out on a table edge and you know there's outflanking units... boooo.

If you spread your very vulnerable army along the table and let your enemy refuse flank you... ouch.

If you sit still allowing all those power claws automatic hits... yeesh.

If you feed your army to someone piecemeal... bagoooo.

 

I don't think anyone in this thread plays like that, or anyone here that DOES play like that, is looking to be more competitive with this particular codex.

 

Some of the armies we're discussing here require a lot of finesse to play, and a bit more dedication to the game to purchase and paint. Not saying mine requires finesse, its pretty point and click, but once things get close, there's lots of nuances and formations you can use to minimize damage and generate cover saves for yourself.

 

For example, simply moving 12" makes it that much more difficult to assault said tank, or a well placed AV13 tank shock could force some crucial LD checks.

Actually I think its a difference in tables- around here we play mostly on 4x4's, Im willing to bet you play on 6x4's normally eh?

 

Here, you cant fit that army in an area to avoid outflanking units- its just something you have to prepare for, because an outflanking fleet/biker/skimmer squad WILL hit you, and theres not a whole lot you can say about that.

 

Move your Razorback forward 12? Cool, now you didnt fire at me and your closer to my own units giving me *most likely* better LOS to you and less distance to close to assault.

 

As for the peicemeal- the issue is just as pronounced with spearhead deployment *wich also changes the fire arcs unfavorably for gunline forces I find.* Any time your opponent is capable of getting off multiple first turn assaults this army will have alot of issues.

 

Its nothing personal, I have the same problem with, and have said as much about, a number of the lists that have been posted up here. Lastly I have a philosophical issue with spam:

 

You say that the unit in question is the best for its points? Im more likely to disagree than to agree with most of the chocies in armies where I hear that, and as an oppossing player I love to hear that out of my enemies mouth- because anything that works well against one unit in his army is going to be useful against probly 2, and maybe even 4 or 5 other units. And when I say works well, I mean capable of ripping them apart in a single turn of shooting or CC to the point of destruction or inability to effectively impact the game. I bring balanced armies for exactly this reason- I know most of the armies in 40k pretty well, and I know a good strong all around unit when I have it in my hands. I, and I know Im not alone on this one, take the tools that will give me multiple ways to effectively cripple particular kinds of enemy units, concentrating on taking units that are capable of doing this to multiple enemy units as opposed to one particular type.

 

This is alot like the debates I see about WHFB tactics- do you overly specialize your army and attempt to overwhelm one particular attribute of your enemies forces in order to press a win or do you take a well rounded force capable of fighting anything the world throws at you? Personally, I always opt for the latter. That isnt to say that 2 units of Archers, 3 Silver Helms, Dragon Princes, 2 Mages, a Lord, and a pair of Bolt Throwers wont hit like a ton of bricks against my saurus blocks- but it means that Ill have taken measures to the best of my ability to weather that storm, while still having the damage output to march into and out of blocks of skaven and gobos, or flank imperial/dwarven cannonades.

 

I hope Im understandable here... its been somewhat of a long evening.

[Gornall]

Actually I think its a difference in tables- around here we play mostly on 4x4's, Im willing to bet you play on 6x4's normally eh?

 

That's such a HUGE change in the dynamics of the game it's almost not even the same game anymore.

[Giga]

Gotha agree with Gornall, 4x4 tables make it exceedingly easy for outflanking forces to completely dominate. The rulebook itself states that a wider table is important.

 

Where I play, it's rather easy to avoid getting hit by outflankers (even if they're bikers!) by keeping the important elements in the middle of the table. Slow outflanking stuff like genestealers is basically useless around here simply because they will move out of outflank and get murdered before they can ever reach close combat.

[gettothegone]

Nope totally understandable, and I am from a 6x4 table so you are absolutely right.

 

4x4 table I wouldn't even consider that army, as it pretty much does itself in with no room and using the major 6x4 advantage which is more space. There is one place in town that plays strictly on 4x4... I don't usually play there as the guys who do, tool up for it and shooting armies don't really have a chance. I try to avoid them as much as possible. Thankfully any tournament here is 6x4 and nothing less.

[Grey Mage]

Ahh, see and we do 1500pt tournies here, on 4x4s. If it gets bigger than that we switch to 6x4s but people complain because their are fewer open slots. *spreads hands*.

 

Now, Id still think it risky on a 6x4, but I wouldnt blink at it on an 8x4 *shrugs* so yeah, all in the numbers. Ill try to remember your table size for future lists <_<.