Creating a tourney All-Comers list with Vanilla Dex

[Giga]

I misunderstood then, because I thought that was something you wanted to get away from.

Well, most vanilla armies I see have th/ss+LR+HQ as their only hammer unit in the army. The remainder of their army usually consists of a bunch of tacticals (not very killy), a dread or two (again, not very killy), and some anti-tank. I want to avoid this. I want to have an army that has more then one massive threat.

 

As for pedro and sternguard being a pointsink, together with the rhino they cost a grand total of 480 pts. I don't think it's a point sink. If I took a tac squad with rhino and PF instead, I'd have 250 pts left, and I don't think a combipred and a dreadnought would really be worth it.

 

Then again, I'm open for suggestions. What killy thing do you think I could get in those 250 pts? I'm looking at something that would be able to seriously worry an opponent.

Lets just say the tactic probly works alot better for my wolves, despite having less AT fire at range. I find it takes a Dread (TLLC) and 4 ML toting longfangs 2 turns to kill a Daemon Prince from CSM on a reliable basis. I see no reason however why that would change with Vanilla Devs, though to be honest I have only encountered a DP once with C:SM, as I usually bring Wolves and Eldar to tournies.

This tactic works better for your wolves because your wolves have both bolt pistol AND ccw AND counter-attack AND they can take two specials. This means your army as a whole isn't nearly as scared of CSM troops as standard vanilla is. If those plague marines or even standard CSM assault my tacticals, I usually have only 9 standard attacks + 2 PF attacks to defend myself with. If those guys assault your GH, you get 28 standard attacks + 2 PF attacks, or even more if you have a WG in the squad.

 

In other words, you can effectively use all your AT fire to kill those DPs, because you don't need to worry all that much about those plague marines, zerkers, and CSM closing in on your troops - you can safely go toe to toe with them in close combat. I, on the other hand, need to prioritize my anti-tank fire, and sometimes it means I have to leave those DPs for later, or even let them close in so I can kill them in assault. If a bunch of rhinos full of CSM troops hits my lines, I'm probably going to get overwhelmed. Pedro's attack aura goes a long way towards negating this innate close combat weakness.

 

Like minigun said, vanilla needs to shoot up the enemy and then assault the stragglers. This is why we have cheap th/ss termies - so we have something that get stuck in and get the job done when those enemies do close in (which, in this age of mech, they WILL do unless you're incredibly lucky with your dice rolls).

Why would you add to the expense? If your taking anything on assault scouts it should be a powerfist, maybe a combi-weapon. Of course if your not running them in a set-up that is actually geared towards their mission they wont do well and are overcosted.

Assault scouts necessitate an aggressive playstyle that I don't like. I'm more of a water warrior guy. :D If I was taking scouts, I'd prolly go with snipers.

Why would I want to spend 600+ points on a single squad in a 1750pt game? Particularly one that is all but worthless against Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Tau... as the transport will be halted and most of the TDA gone in short order *in my experiance*. Between Brightlances and Railcannons to take out the transport and plasma to get rid of the rest, with perhaps some firewarrior support, it just seems astronomical for what it can do. After theyre done hitting you with enough fire power to wipe those out, theyll still have enough to stun a couple rhinos is the worst part.

Well, it depends how you're gonna use that LR with termies. I find them invaluable in any situation. Usually, the very threat of them being there is going to draw lots of fire. Gotha go now, will write up more later. :D

[minigun762]

Well, most vanilla armies I see have th/ss+LR+HQ as their only hammer unit in the army. The remainder of their army usually consists of a bunch of tacticals (not very killy), a dread or two (again, not very killy), and some anti-tank. I want to avoid this. I want to have an army that has more then one massive threat.

 

As for pedro and sternguard being a pointsink, together with the rhino they cost a grand total of 480 pts. I don't think it's a point sink. If I took a tac squad with rhino and PF instead, I'd have 250 pts left, and I don't think a combipred and a dreadnought would really be worth it.

 

Then again, I'm open for suggestions. What killy thing do you think I could get in those 250 pts? I'm looking at something that would be able to seriously worry an opponent.

 

Ahh I see where you're going now. You want to build an army with a "one-two" punch, 2 nasty units that are hard to ignore and should take the heat off the rest of the army, is that right? And if we drop the Pedroguard, we're looking at 250ish points leftover (after we buy a Tac squad).

 

Here are my suggestions:

1) 2 Vindicators. Probably the best means of keeping the rest of your army alive. People hate these guys and will kill them ASAP. Having 2 of them means they can't rely on getting lucky once or using 1 throw away unit like Termicide. Assuming you take the Siege Shield, they're 250 points on the nose. Use your Rhinos or Land Raider to protect their weaker side armor and you should be just fine.

 

2) 5 Tactical Terminators w/ CML. Similar to the Sternguard I think. Less kill points, better assault and better long range firepower at the expense of the special ammo and fewer bodies on the table. Marching them up the field will provide some mobile firepower and they can be used quite well to support a Tac squad thats has been assaulted.

 

3) Some mix of RifleDreads + Combi-Predators. Don't underestimate the amount of long range firepower these units can put out and at 48" to boot. TL'd Autocannons are probably the best thing in the game for knocking our transports like Rhinos and they will reliably wound MCs. Lascannons provide that important AP2 and let you threaten heavier armor. Remember that you can still glance AV13 which is good enough to stop that Hammerhead from shooting your Marines.

 

4) Another Land Raider. Since you already have a standard pattern, I'd probably go for a Crusader/Redeemer. Lots of extra anti-infantry firepower and it spreads out their anti-tank firepower even further. Plus you can always carry your Terminators in it if the other should blow up. Lastly, don't be afraid to put a wounded Tac squad in there to camp an objective.

 

5) 3 Multi-Melta Attack Bikes. Nobody with any amount of armor can let 3 fast moving MM run around the board and not kill them. This squad can always be used to kill MCs, figure 2 hits and 1-2 wounds per turn with no armor save, thats not bad. Toss in the TL'd Bolters and maybe you'll get lucky. All at the safe range of 24".

 

I personally think all of these choices are better then Pedroguard. Of the ones I've listed, I'd probably hate to see either the Vindicators or Attack Bikes the most, because I know they'd require my immediate attention since they can hurt me alot.

[Giga]

I like the dual vindicators idea. It would create valuable target saturation with two AV13 tanks, and they sure as hell have more overall punch then the sternguard. Another idea is to max out on attack bikes and the like. I will definitely be testing this out... All I need to do is buy some vindicators. ><

 

As for the pedroguard, I still think it's probably better in an all-comers list, though. The unit itself is great, and pedro himself can pack a punch, but I think the biggest benefit is in the boost pedro gives to the whole army. His +1 attack aura is great, and so is armywide stubborn, IMHO. Then there's also the cool orbital bombardment.

[Titan87]

I too like the dual vindicators idea, they are great vs. everything, and with two you have the built in redundancy to keep them firing. The only real knock on them vs. Sternguard are that one shot that makes it past that armor needs a weapon destroyed or worse to be put out of the game where as it will take quite a few more shots to get rid of the sternguard.

 

I believe that without pedro in your army to make them scoring sternguard lose alot of their potency and fall out of the discussion of C:SM "best units". Their "anti everything role can be replaced for the same price or cheaper by Terminators, dreads, Vindi's, Land Raiders, Land Speeders, etc. With these options you either get more firepower, greater surviveability, or both. So if sternguard are not going to be scoring, I think that one of the above units can fulfill the role of Anvil to your "hammernators" hammer. (pardon the pun)

 

p.s. I am putting together a list as well and am trying to figure out if sternguard are worth it even with pedro in the list, or if I should spend my points elsewhere.

[waaanial00]

IMO Sternguard are "worth it" even without scoring if you manage what you are using them for.

 

What is the big deal about scoring on such a high profile and relatively easy to kill unit anyway? Take the fancy gun, extra attack and better leadership away and what do you have? A Tactical marine. Would you expect a squad of Tactical marines to sit easy on an objective after drop podding?

 

I find that without making your entire army pod based they arrive in numbers small enough for a smart player to deal with. So you either need to make them count or deploy them smartly. Either way its easy to counter and a smart player will build enough redundancy into a list to avoid alpha striking from killing off their list (hell thats what we are discussing so you have to assume that others have come to the same conclusion).

 

So what does that leave us with? Pedro Kantor bringing more expensive elite troops which count as scoring in drop pods, half of which are not immediately useable and those that are are easy to counter. I will hazard a guess that despite what it looks like on paper Pedro lists are not the answer to the tournament scene because the missing element in the overall calculation is the experience and skill of the opponent.

 

Pedro lists require an opponent to either alpha strike enough critical parts in the opponents army, use the combat buff to avoid getting out assaulted and target saturation on Objectives. All of these will be easily countered by a tournament player. So what are you left with after that? A small army which is incapable of reacting quickly and is likely in a position to be shot heavily or taken apart piece meal.

 

Then you compound the lack of numbers with 450 points +/- HQ with what I still believe is a false saviour of a unit. I know you will disagree with what I am about to say but I will say it anyway. Sooner of later everyone adapts to Assault Terminators, they fail to shock or intimidate if your opponent has enough guns (Nids, IG, Orks) they can also only kill so much before their numbers diminish to the point where their effectiveness drops to useless. At this point you have an expensive delivery system which will never kill enough to warrent its inclusion (absorbing firepower is a different story, smart players target things they can kill well first and wait for the raiders to get close - or they will do to you what you plan for them and quick melta it) and a small tough expensive unit with not nearly enough bodies to make enough of an impact.

 

I really hate Assault Terminators, round where I play they are the least used elements of Space Marine armies. I am willing to accept that used well anything can be a game breaker but given that they are still only 1 wound each you only need to roll 3 1's and then your unit is below half strength and only capable of killing a maximum of 6 enemies a combat phase. Not to mention that they are so overkill that unless you charge a particularly tough/large unit you are likely to overkill in your own assault turn then continue to get shot in the enemies turn.

 

There is also an over reliance on melta in most Tournament lists I see, to the detriment of long range weapons. I wont go into this any further other than to suggest with the up and comming Nids army and the existing nasty IG ones it is a mistake not to have mobile long ranged weapons which are capable of doing high strength damage. Too many times I see and read that a weapon is no good because the chances it will destroy a vehicle are too slim, glancing a shooting vehicle and preventing it from shooting is as good as killing it in the short term, possibly better as it prevents units from using it as cover. Denying shooting and moving is great against transports as extra armour and its variant names are usually viewed as expensive upgrades for several tournament players (I know its one of the first things people suggest you cut in our list forum).

 

Still enough of my ramblings. There was a similar thread to this in the Ultramarines forum a while ago. Very interesting though the outcome/conclusion I think was a little skewed and not to my liking.

 

Wan

[Giga]

@waanial

 

It might be the fact english isn't my native language, but I don't exactly understand what you're trying to say with the sternguard.

 

Are you saying that one should keep sternguard in drop pods or not? I personally feel that keeping sternies in droppods isn't a good idea on the whole. TBH, I don't really like drop pods to begin with, and especially not with sternguard.

 

No, I run my sternguard in a rhino. The key to keeping them alive is the smart use of cover, popping smoke, and target saturation. I find the targets that draw most fire in a vanilla army are speeders, attack bikes, land raiders, th/ss termies, sternguard, and vindicators. Get enough of these in a list, and you can be sure that an enemy will be hard pressed to prioritize his shooting.

 

As for getting pedro to boost the army with his aura, I personally find this is really easy to do, and it comes naturally to me. I call that tactic pedro phalanx, which basically means I'm either playing refused flank (against assaulty armies, such as nids, this is the best tactic IMHO), or I'm in the rushing mood (such as against necrons or IG), at which point the aura has easy time touching all the elements I want it to touch anyway. All it requires is some proper positioning and planning.

I find that without making your entire army pod based they arrive in numbers small enough for a smart player to deal with.

I don't understand this. How are vanilla "arriving" in numbers small enough for an opponent to deal with? Arriving where? Pretty much the only battles where I'm always at the offensive (ie. rushing towards the enemy) are battles against IG, necrons, and tau, and even then it might be only so I can draw their fire away from my scoring units and contest their objectives.

 

The entire "arriving in small numbers" thing can be attributed to any mech army.

[waaanial00]

One of these days I will read the whole of the OP.

 

Sorry assumed that you were deploying Sternguard in Drop pods, was basically brain dumping against that idea. Sternguard in Rhinos are good and probably the best way to employ them. In drop pods they are bad and should only be used in small suicide troops but I personally hate wasting them.

 

 

I find that without making your entire army pod based they arrive in numbers small enough for a smart player to deal with.

 

I don't understand this. How are vanilla "arriving" in numbers small enough for an opponent to deal with? Arriving where? Pretty much the only battles where I'm always at the offensive (ie. rushing towards the enemy) are battles against IG, necrons, and tau, and even then it might be only so I can draw their fire away from my scoring units and contest their objectives.

 

Again assuming that you were going with the standard Pedro Drop Pod rush. Given that they are in drop pods they come in small numbers which are easily destroyed. Using them with the main Rhino push stops this from happening. Again this comment was wrong and was due to me not reading the whole thing properly.

 

A friend of mine attempted something similar a while back using Pedro as a linch pin but he worked with Honour Guard and geared more to assault. It was a trial I have yet to see him use again.

 

I will re-read the original post and raise something sensible to this discussion later. It was wrong of me to assume but whenever I usually see Pedro its always with Drop Pods.

 

Something on topic though is that Stubborn is not as great as I originally thought it was. Having played several Lysander builds before ditching him mid way through this year i have come to respect Combat Tactics, whilst they are not exactly amazing or full proof decent use of this special rule is devastating to an opponent. Being able to avoid assaults or avoid getting shot before assaults (either they shoot you up and risk you running away so they cant assault you, or they forgo shooting you and risk not being able to tip the scales).

 

As I said though I will post something more meaninful a little later. There has to be a way to get Vanilla marines to work at tournament levels, I am not convinced that the SC's are all that and I am sure that true vanilla with a decently balanced army is a great way to upset many tournament players who come expecting skewed builds.

 

Wan

[Grey Mage]

Why do people play DPs as suicide death from above armies? What is it that takes otherwise good players and turns them into ravenous idiots?

 

I truely dont understand.

 

When you play DPs you should allocate between 1/5 and 1/3 of your points to support options that will be on the board- like Landspeeders, scouts, and bikes. These support units mean your going to have more people on the board at the beggning, can bring heavy weapons thatll get to fire without the expense of a Dreadnaught *or the elite slot, depending on build* and can even give you a first turn assault in some cases.

 

You also dont have to deploy next to your enemy if itll get you wiped the next shooting phase.

 

Use TACTICS! dang it.

 

/nerdrage.

[Giga]

Most people are completely brainless when it comes to DPs.

 

If I was using drop pods, I would probably do it like this;

 

Get two drop pods, one with a tactical squad for objective guarding, the other with 5 sternguard with combimeltas.

 

The plan would not be to actually land the sternies on turn 1. The plan would be to land first the tacs (on an objective, somewhere), and then have the sternguard as a terror thing for turn 2+ ie. the sort of thing that an opponent knows is coming sooner or later, but can do precious little about. When they do arrive, I can be sure that they will arrive where I want them, and assist my army where I need them.

 

 

 

 

Again, it's not a brilliant strategy, but still I believe way way better then landing a dread or a big squad of sternguard into an opponent's deployment zone on turn 1. I find that to be a rather dumb thing to do, and fascinating mostly to beginners.

 

 

 

The other use for drop pods is in an alpha strike list. If your plan is to rush the enemy and kill them as fast as possible, then having a droppoding ironclad is a cheap option that ensures your opponent won't be shooting his anti-tank firepower at the rest of your army for at least one turn. The ironclad will die, but it's cheap and with a little luck it might pop a vehicle with its meltagun.

Something on topic though is that Stubborn is not as great as I originally thought it was. Having played several Lysander builds before ditching him mid way through this year i have come to respect Combat Tactics, whilst they are not exactly amazing or full proof decent use of this special rule is devastating to an opponent. Being able to avoid assaults or avoid getting shot before assaults (either they shoot you up and risk you running away so they cant assault you, or they forgo shooting you and risk not being able to tip the scales).

Stubborn isn't great, but I find that in a non-bike list having stubborn is better then having combat tactics. Stubborn allows me to virtually never lose combat, and renders me just plain immune to a bunch of leadership modifying effects in the game. This is particularly useful when I'm being hit with ordnance barrages, or when nids presence gives you a -2 to leadership and then spams you with barbed strangler pieplates.

 

Combat tactics I don't find very useful outside of a bike list.

[minigun762]

Why do people play DPs as suicide death from above armies? What is it that takes otherwise good players and turns them into ravenous idiots?

 

I think because its easier to use a suicidal unit, especially one geared up to take out armor. Its a game of "I trade you unit X for unit Y) and you hope that you come out ahead in the end.

 

The problem is that unlike Chaos with Termicide squads (around 100 points), Codex Marines have no super cheap option to trade. Even a 5 man squad with a Meltagun and Combi-Melta in a pod is going to be nearly nearly 150 points and not be able to do the same job as well as the Termicide can for cheaper)

[Grey Mage]

Why do people play DPs as suicide death from above armies? What is it that takes otherwise good players and turns them into ravenous idiots?

 

I think because its easier to use a suicidal unit, especially one geared up to take out armor. Its a game of "I trade you unit X for unit Y) and you hope that you come out ahead in the end.

 

The problem is that unlike Chaos with Termicide squads (around 100 points), Codex Marines have no super cheap option to trade. Even a 5 man squad with a Meltagun and Combi-Melta in a pod is going to be nearly nearly 150 points and not be able to do the same job as well as the Termicide can for cheaper)

You know how to win at checkers?

 

Dont trade units for anything but the win. Always block or go offensive.

[waaanial00]

Stubborn isn't great, but I find that in a non-bike list having stubborn is better then having combat tactics. Stubborn allows me to virtually never lose combat, and renders me just plain immune to a bunch of leadership modifying effects in the game. This is particularly useful when I'm being hit with ordnance barrages, or when nids presence gives you a -2 to leadership and then spams you with barbed strangler pieplates.

 

Combat tactics I don't find very useful outside of a bike list.

 

 

OK so it means you never run away from a combat but you can still be losing it and having your men chewed up slowly over time. I have found that given how survivable marines are when running from a combat (either getting away or just sufferring no retreat wounds on a 3+ save unit) its mostly prefereable to break combat to try and limit losses. With stubborn you rarely get the chance and you can get stuck in hopeless combats which you are slightly outclassed and losing combat by 1 or 2 over half the game not really contributing, given how small marine armies are anyway I find that keeping units contributing is my biggest challenge.

 

Dont get me wrong Stubborn has some brilliant applications - a 10 man tactical squad with Stubborn is an excellent road block unit, rarely does it get killed in 1 turn so you are usually holding up even an insane combat unit for a whole game turn. There are also the things you have suggested. It is essentially the new Fearless given a decent enough LD value, however I have had Lysander run a number of times.

 

I am interested to hear why you think its not particularly useful for a Mech army? Especially a marine unit where they shoot better than they assault (though of course they assault twice as much).

 

Mech is definitely the way to go, depending on how the Nid army actually pans out we might find less use for Multi Meltas. It might breed neccessity to keep the distance, at present there are few armies we marines really need to stand off from. Orks being the main one where a good round or two of shooting at range before moving up to take the offensive is usually a good option. With nids being pipped as a huge army we might see a requirement for more long ranged multi shot weapons.

 

What is your opinion of spamming Thunderfire Cannons? I appreciate that it is viewed as a glass cannon but given its potential impact in one turn I think 2 of these for 200 points is a valid investment given the potential opponents you are likely to face in a tournament setting. Their different options also allow for some interesting things, denying turbo boosting, denying cover saves or just spamming S6 templates.

 

Wan

[Brother Captain Josef]

I love and hate my Thunderfire but taking two is basically squaring their effectivness so I approve of more than one. Perhapse two or none at all? :thanks:

 

The S5 ignore cover shot is amazing even though its only AP6. Just denying a 4+ cover is good enough when you laying down 4 templates per turn. My only gripe is that they need LOS to work and thus you take a lot of incoming fire an yes it is very fragile. I have only had one battle where the TF has survived past the first turn and that was only because the Tech marine bolstered the fortification he was in giving his unit a 2+ cover save - never forget that!

 

I have been thinking about the relative benefits of TF vs. WWind - it's natural comparrison in the vanilla list and its a toughie. The TF arguably dishes out more damage and is more consitant with its shooting (and more useful) but a WW doesn't need LOS and so you can hide it away in a dark corner somewhere and its ignore cover shot is AP5 though only S4 and 15 points cheaper.

 

I feel the TF is the most inconsitent of the two overall, hence the love hate relationship. If you can get it in a bolstered fortification is nigh unstoppable and it dishes out the hurt but this is not guranteed and the best you can reasonably ask for is 3+ cover save.

 

It all depends on what you feel is more important in a tourney list - consistancy or the ability to cause some real headaches for you opponent in the right circumstances. I still haven't decided...

[Giga]

About stubborn;

 

The thing with stubborn in a pedro list is that you don't really lose combat nearly as often, simply because in a pedro lists your tacticals have 2 attacks base, and 3 attacks on charge, due to Pedro's aura. This means your tacticals fight as well as assault marines, which is great, and means they can often hold their own against pretty much anything short of close combat hammer units such as th/ss termies, daemon princes, hive tyrants, and the like, but then again everything dies against that. ;)

 

And the great thing about stubborn is that, unlike Fearless, it doesn't suffer from no-retreat of itself. You're very likely to pass every ld test, and hence stay in place no matter what. This is only really bad if you're assaulted by things that can't sweeping advance (such as terminators), but then you really shouldn't get assaulted by them in the first place.

 

 

 

 

As for combat tactics. Well, my local metagame has lots of nids and chaos marines. Combat tactic is pretty useless against them, because they're usually the ones closing in on me, so I'm normally close to my table edge once they finally reach me. Not only do they have high I and can catch me easily, I also risk getting my units running off the table.

 

Against other armies, such as IG, necrons, tau etc. combat tactics are pretty useless, because I don't want to be running away from them. I want to be close so I can assault them as soon as possible.

 

Against other shooty armies, such as other vanilla lists that will shoot+assault, all they have to do to nullify my combat tactics is not to shoot the unit they want to assault in the shooting phase. It's common sense that allows them to instantly nullify the entire combat tactics special rule.

 

Simply put, with all this, I don't find combat tactics particularly useful against anyone but beginners and noobs. Any smart player will just not shoot the unit they really want to assault, anyway.

 

 

 

 

As for thunderfire cannons... Can't say I used them much. Theoretically, they seem good, but from my own experience unless you're shooting big hordes, the scatter tends to make those small templates miss more often then not. I'm considering whirlwinds these days, though, as an option to nullify the new nid codex. Two whirlies come out at 170 pts, and offer quite some damage against hordes.

[waaanial00]

Firstly thanks for the clarification. I wasnt challenging Im interested in both sides of the Combat Tactics debate and always looking for more experience than my own (the reason I started using CT is because I have seen other players using it well).

 

Any smart player will just not shoot the unit they really want to assault, anyway.

 

This is actually the point of combat tactics that I like. You take less damage before combat and therefore have a better chance of either winning the combat or doing a larger amount of damage before disengaging in their turn and shooting then re-engaging in your own.

 

I wont pressure anyone or decry people for not using them. Only suggest that you try and find someone who uses them well and watch how they use them, its really interesting when a good player who understands the limitations makes a vanilla army much better with them. still you dont like em so I will not bring them up again.

 

As for thunderfire cannons... Can't say I used them much. Theoretically, they seem good, but from my own experience unless you're shooting big hordes, the scatter tends to make those small templates miss more often then not. I'm considering whirlwinds these days, though, as an option to nullify the new nid codex. Two whirlies come out at 170 pts, and offer quite some damage against hordes.

 

Again its a thing I would urge you to proxy a few more times before discounting. The thing about the thunderfire is although it is a small blast there are 4 of them. Im not sure how lucky you are with scatter but it is rare for me not to hit something something with less than two of the templates (regularly all 4 hit home or scatter to hit a similar number).

 

I would say against MEQ the thunderfire is agruably better, say you can average 3 hits per template if they "hit" and you hit twice a unit of 5 Tactical marines, you have the possibility of more wounds than there are models. However with a Whirlwind you can only ever hit each model once. With 4 successful hits you have greater potential to hit more and possibly put 2 wounds per model, making the possibility of important body kills that much higher.

 

This makes it IMO better at attacking smaller units than bigger as the impact of hits is felt stronger for the smaller units, despite it being a little more difficult to hit smaller units with a smaller blast.

 

Wan

[Brother Captain Josef]

I would say against MEQ the thunderfire is agruably better, say you can average 3 hits per template if they "hit" and you hit twice a unit of 5 Tactical marines, you have the possibility of more wounds than there are models. However with a Whirlwind you can only ever hit each model once. With 4 successful hits you have greater potential to hit more and possibly put 2 wounds per model, making the possibility of important body kills that much higher.

 

This is a good point that I hadn't thought of and with more shots you have more chance of hitting something even if only once. 4 x 3" templates cover more area the 1 x 5" template too. ~28" square to ~19" square respectivly. You gotta agree the TF is better on the attack. Don't want to turn this excellent thread into a TF vs WW though so will just say that it depends how much you value LOS vs damage in a tourney I suppose.

 

I value combat tactics. I've proxied Lysander and Pedro. Pedro's inspiring aura adds a significant benefit which I find alleviates the lack of CT in smaller games (12" range) but even Lysander being a combat monster in himself I don't find his bolter drill makes up for the ability to leg it in your opponents combat phase and then re engage in your own. It's very powerful as you can get a whole turn shooting and a charge too. I gotta say if you value Stubborn then go with Pedro.

[Giga]

This is actually the point of combat tactics that I like. You take less damage before combat and therefore have a better chance of either winning the combat or doing a larger amount of damage before disengaging in their turn and shooting then re-engaging in your own.

The thing is, most of the units that are actually dangerous in assault do not need shooting to be able to wipe out or otherwise completely neutralize tacticals marines. In fact, most of these will profit from not killing the squad in a single phase, which enables them to kill it in the next assault phase, which is always better.

 

Take th/ss termies and genestealers, for example. They can't shoot at all. Banshees, berzerkers, plague marines, honor guard, and assault marines only get some pistols, which is again not something they need for shooting. Hive tyrants, daemon princes, greater daemons, dreadnoughts, defilers, killy ICs, etc. don't have to shoot a tac squad in order to be able to completely pwn it in the assault phase.

 

It's not just with combat tactics, either. When I want to assault a non-fearless unit with my terminators, I never shoot it. Shooting is risky if you want to assault, and the only times when I would advocate it is if the unit you're shooting is already very close to their table edge.

 

Hence, having an opponent not shoot your tactical squad before an assault is actually not particularly useful, when you think about it. Unless, of course, the assaulting unit is a unit that the tactical marines can actually stand up to, which means the assaulting unit isn't exactly particularly dangerous assault-wise, anyway.

 

Also, I don't understand how exactly you leave combat and re-engage in your own turn. Let's say you manage to escape combat in the first assault phase (odds are against you, unless you're running away from terminators, considering that most of the mentioned assault specialists have I4 or higher). Your average 2d6 roll will be 7". This means that the opponent can consolidate after you even if he rolls a 1 on his consolidate move, as it will put him 6" from your fleeing unit, making it impossible for them to regroup, and forcing them to run for a further 2d6" in your own movement phase and do nothing for the rest of your turn. You would need to roll 8+ on 2d6, and your opponent would need to roll a 1 for you to actually succeed in running away and then shooting them next turn.

 

With bikes it's a different story, since they fall back 3d6 and have it really easy to escape, but with standard mech marines combat tactics isn't exactly a great way to escape close combat. IMHO, the best way is to simply not get caught up in an assault you aren't going to win or at least draw.

 

 

 

 

 

 

As for the thunderfire, you're very lucky if you always get all 4 shots to hit something, and in that case you should use it as much as possible. I myself still got a lot of playtesting to do with it.

[minigun762]

As for the thunderfire, you're very lucky if you always get all 4 shots to hit something, and in that case you should use it as much as possible. I myself still got a lot of playtesting to do with it.

 

The Thunderfire isn't a bad little toy but it competes with 2 cheaper and possibly better anti-infantry options, the Whirlwind and the Dakka Predator.

In a direct fire role, I'd much rather see a Thunderfire across the table then a Dakka Predator because knocking out AV10 vs AV13 isn't even comparable. Both units should be hiding in cover 36" away from anything too scary so you're forced to waste either deepstriking Melta squads or long range anti-tank fire on them and the Dakka Predator is just so much more durable.

 

The Whirlwind might be less killy overall and it doesn't have that novel tremor round, but the ability to hide out of LOS and pound a squad with a pinning weapon weapon makes it the safer choice in my book. Again its durability and cheaper price make it a better overall value.

 

What the Thundefire has is alot of cheapish offensive firepower, but keeping it alive long enough to really make a difficult. It feels like an "alpha strike" turn 1 weapon.

 

 

The biggest problem with all of these units is that they are all anti-infantry specialists, which is something that Tactical squads in Rhinos/Razorbacks do very well naturally. What Marines normally need is more anti-tank firepower and/or Land Raider transports for assault. I think the best Heavy choice for Codex Marines is the Combi-Predator. 120 points for three 48" anti-tank weapons on a AV13 platform is a very good buy. Pairing these up with MM Fast Attack to kill Land Raiders and you will have alot to threaten enemy armor or MCs.

[Gornall]

I think the best Heavy choice for Codex Marines is the Combi-Predator. 120 points for three 48" anti-tank weapons on a AV13 platform is a very good buy. Pairing these up with MM Fast Attack to kill Land Raiders and you will have alot to threaten enemy armor or MCs.

 

This. I love my Combi-Predator for silencing AV12, nailing Rhinos, and if nothing else, popping Oblits. MM/HF Landspeeders and MM ABs can handle the bigger stuff that shrugs off the Lascannons/Autocannons.

[Giga]

I have one combipredator, and gotha admit I'm far from impressed with it.

 

For one, I dislike it's immobility. You put it on a hill somewhere, and shoot. And that's the end of it. Moving it is a bad idea because then it gets to shoot less, and there is no way to improve its shooting through synergy. This makes it easy for an opponent to always have cover saves against it. :/

 

If I was going after long-range firepower, I think a single typhoon speeder would be better then a combi-predator. Typhoon speeders are a beast I haven't tested out properly yet, mainly because they're so pricey, but I feel they would be a really powerful thing, especially now with the new nids coming. All those heavy bolters and frag missiles gonna work real well vs hordes.

 

 

 

 

BTW, how do you guys do with your 1500 pts lists? Am I the only one who just can't make a 1500 list I'm happy with? No matter what I do, it always feel like it's lacking a lot. :lol:

[Grey Mage]

I have one combipredator, and gotha admit I'm far from impressed with it.

 

For one, I dislike it's immobility. You put it on a hill somewhere, and shoot. And that's the end of it. Moving it is a bad idea because then it gets to shoot less, and there is no way to improve its shooting through synergy. This makes it easy for an opponent to always have cover saves against it. :/

 

If I was going after long-range firepower, I think a single typhoon speeder would be better then a combi-predator. Typhoon speeders are a beast I haven't tested out properly yet, mainly because they're so pricey, but I feel they would be a really powerful thing, especially now with the new nids coming. All those heavy bolters and frag missiles gonna work real well vs hordes.

 

 

 

 

BTW, how do you guys do with your 1500 pts lists? Am I the only one who just can't make a 1500 list I'm happy with? No matter what I do, it always feel like it's lacking a lot. :lol:

I agree, the TFC is static, but I dont think thats so much of an issue. It hits fairly hard if it hits well, and that can more than make up for any cover saves. But then, thats being on the receiving end- personally, I have always prefered the whirlwind.

 

I love 1500pts, I usually feel hard pressed to find something tht properly synergises with my lists for that last 250, or 350pts of larger tournaments without being "tacked on".

[minigun762]

BTW, how do you guys do with your 1500 pts lists? Am I the only one who just can't make a 1500 list I'm happy with? No matter what I do, it always feel like it's lacking a lot. :rolleyes:

 

I think 1500 points is the perfect size for most games.

Anything smaller and you're too handicapped by the (2 Troops/1 HQ) rule. You're lucky to have 1-2 other units in your army if you take full sized Troop squads.

1500 though lets you take 3-4 Troop squads and still fill out your other FOC slots reasonably well.

 

My current Chaos list is something like 40 CSMs in 4 Rhinos backed up by 2 Defilers and a DP. I rarely feeling like I'm lacking anything.

 

I have one combipredator, and gotha admit I'm far from impressed with it.

 

For one, I dislike it's immobility. You put it on a hill somewhere, and shoot. And that's the end of it. Moving it is a bad idea because then it gets to shoot less, and there is no way to improve its shooting through synergy. This makes it easy for an opponent to always have cover saves against it. :/

 

If I was going after long-range firepower, I think a single typhoon speeder would be better then a combi-predator. Typhoon speeders are a beast I haven't tested out properly yet, mainly because they're so pricey, but I feel they would be a really powerful thing, especially now with the new nids coming. All those heavy bolters and frag missiles gonna work real well vs hordes.

Its true that its a very static option, but the long range of the guns and sheer number of high S shots does a good job of mitigating any potential cover saves.

I can't comment on using a Typhoon but I think it has alot of potential. However I'd rather see (or not see I guess haha) a Codex Marine's FA options filled with MM/HF Speeders which are cheaper and supply your anti-Land Raider firepower better.

 

The Typhoon is more of a multi-tasker, but point for point it can't compete with the Combi-Predator at busting transports (which is a big part of the meta game now).

 

3 Typhoons = 270 points = 6 Kraks + 9 HB shots

2 Combi-Predators = 240 points = 4 AC shots and 4 Lascannon shots

 

vs AV11 (Rhinos)

6 Kraks = 4 hits = 1.3 glance/pen

9 HB = 6 hits = 1 glance

Total: 2.3 glance/pens

 

4 AC shots = 2.7 hits = 1.3 glance/pen

4 Lascannons = 2.7 hits = 2.2 glance/pen

Total: 3.5 glance/pen

 

So the Predators do the same job (killing Rhinos) better and cheaper then the Typhoons.

[Giga]

1500 though lets you take 3-4 Troop squads and still fill out your other FOC slots reasonably well.

I love 1500pts, I usually feel hard pressed to find something tht properly synergises with my lists for that last 250, or 350pts of larger tournaments without being "tacked on".

That's the problem, you see, vanilla troops are support units, and can't be relied on to deliver the punch against anything that isn't GEQ. They can be improved a bit through synergy, but you can never use them as your primary hard-hitting forces.

 

Taking 3 of them means you don't get enough points for the hard-hitting stuff, so at 1500 I usually have to scramble with only 2 tac squads, so I can have enough points for proper anti-tank and anti-infantry.

 

CSM and SW have it completely different, seeing as your troops are designed in such a way to be the real center of your army. Which is one of the reasons why vanilla gets cheap access to superkilly stuff like th/ss terminators, sternguard veterans, mm attack bikes, etc.

 

 

 

 

 

MM/HF speeders are one of the standard units I use. I agree that they're pretty awesome, although I want to test out using squadrons of only two now. I feel that might actually be the better option overall.

So the Predators do the same job (killing Rhinos) better and cheaper then the Typhoons.

Which is okay, but the thing is, the speeders aren't just made to kill rhinos. They can lay down a lot of hurt against any infantry in the game, including monstrous creatures. What's more, they can turbo boost to contest objectives, they can play the wound allocation game, and they can move 6-12" and still shoot like mad.

 

I think both units have their niches though. I'm probably gonna be playing against seer council list tomorrow, and I think I just might use the combi-pred. :)

[Grey Mage]

Not to mention Typhoons are better at getting side armor shots than Predators are by a long shot- mobility really is a factor in their price.

[Iron_Chaos_Brute]

I agree, Giga. 1500 is just too limiting across the board.

 

My CSM lists are much better at 1750.

My SM lists are much better at 1750.

Same thing for Orks, Daemons, SW, and IG.

 

The points increase of 250 gives the list way more than 250 more points of actual effectiveness. This drops off after 2000 in my experience.

 

It just seem like 40K is best balanced between 1750-2000 these days.

 

EDIT-I really hate preds. They just don't cut it.