Creating a tourney All-Comers list with Vanilla Dex

[minigun762]

Not to mention Typhoons are better at getting side armor shots than Predators are by a long shot- mobility really is a factor in their price.

 

True. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Typhoons are bad. I think they're a great little unit that you can find a role for in most any SM army.

 

I was saying in the niche role of transport/walker busting, the Combi Predator is superior.

 

But this goes back to the previous point, what are you going to take for your Heavy slots when your main anti-infantry is handled by your Troops and your anti-heavy tank is handled by your Fast Attack.

 

You can either load up on more anti-infantry (Dakka Predator, Whirlwind, Thunderfire) or get some long range anti-tank (Combi/Las Predator, standard Land Raider, Missile/Lascannon Devs) or get some kind of assault vehicle/bullet sponge (Crusader, Redeemer or Vindicator).

 

Of course, Codex Marines can make a viable army without using their Heavy slots, which is a big difference over Chaos where we have to use our Heavies.

 

If you don't like the static nature of the Predator, I think the RifleDread makes for very good substitute if you have the Elite slots open. Its just as killing against transports and its able to move/shoot to full effect.

[Giga]

I think the RifleDread makes for very good substitute if you have the Elite slots open. Its just as killing against transports and its able to move/shoot to full effect.

I've been considering the rifledread. The ability to move 6" a turn and keep shooting is really nice, and it costs only 5 points more then the predator.

 

However, what has kept me from rifledread, is the fact there's no model for it, and I don't feel like buying forgeworld dread arms. :/

 

 

 

 

 

BTW, I had a good laugh today with the combi-predator.

 

I took it in my list in two battles, one against seer council eldar, the other against anti-mech IG (specifically tailored to kill my list ;) ).

 

Against the eldar, the combipred murdered a bunch of dire avengers (it had nothing better to shoot at) and a falcon. That was okay, nothing special. Two attack bikes might or might not have done better.

 

Against IG, however, the combi-pred blasted a vendetta to pieces in turn 1, then proceeded to kill a leman russ in turn 2, and then to kill ANOTHER leman russ in turn 3. 470 pts in 3 turns. That's like it knew I've been foulmouthing it on B&C and wanted to rub it into my face how wrong I was. :)

[Paulochromis]

However, what has kept me from rifledread, is the fact there's no model for it, and I don't feel like buying forgeworld dread arms. :/

Use the aegis defense line gun (quad auto-cannons). You get some useful terrain AND just what the "dread"-ed doctor ordered.

 

Cheers, Paul.

[minigun762]

[bTW, I had a good laugh today with the combi-predator.

 

I took it in my list in two battles, one against seer council eldar, the other against anti-mech IG (specifically tailored to kill my list :) ).

 

Against the eldar, the combipred murdered a bunch of dire avengers (it had nothing better to shoot at) and a falcon. That was okay, nothing special. Two attack bikes might or might not have done better.

 

Against IG, however, the combi-pred blasted a vendetta to pieces in turn 1, then proceeded to kill a leman russ in turn 2, and then to kill ANOTHER leman russ in turn 3. 470 pts in 3 turns. That's like it knew I've been foulmouthing it on B&C and wanted to rub it into my face how wrong I was. :ph34r:

 

See, you upset its machine spirit and it had to prove itself to you. ;)

Both the Combi-Predator and the RifleDread make for excellent counters to those annoying Vendettas. (damn I hate those things!)

 

Use the aegis defense line gun (quad auto-cannons). You get some useful terrain AND just what the "dread"-ed doctor ordered.

I too have heard good things about this idea. If nothing else, it would make for a very striking Dreadnought I think.

[fudal78]

Really interesting discussion so far, I'd like to add the list I think is going to be competitive in a Tournament setting and an explanation of how I would use it:

 

HQ:

 

Pedro - 175pts

 

Chaplain - 105pts

Melta Bombs

 

Elites:

 

Sternguard - 270pts

3x Bolters, 2x Combi-Flamers, 2x Combi-Meltas, Sgt w. Bolter and Power Weapon

Rhino

 

Dreadnought - 125pts

Plasma Cannon, DCCW w. Heavy Flamer

Drop Pod

 

Troops:

 

Tactical Squad - 225pts

Missile Launcher, Meltagun, Sgt w. Bolt Pistol and Power Weapon

Rhino

 

Scout Squad - 165pts

9x Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons, Sgt w. Bolter and Power Fist

 

Scout Squad - 179pts

5x Sniper Rifles, 1x Heavy Bolter, Camo Cloaks, Sgt Telion

 

Fast Attack:

 

Land Speeder - 70pts

Multi Melta, Heavy Flamer

 

Land Speeder - 70pts

Multi Melta, Heavy Flamer

 

Heavy Support:

 

Predator - 85pts

Autocannon, Heavy Bolter Sponsons

 

Land Raider - 250pts

TL Lascannons, TL Heavy Bolter

 

The Sternguard with Pedro are the objective takers/forward assault team, supported by the Land Speeders. The Sniper Scouts are the home objective sitters supported by the Predator and Dreadnought. The Tac Squad in the Rhino are mobile support or mid-field objective holders. The Close Combat Scouts ride in the Land Raider with the Chaplain and will support the Tac Squad in the Rhino but can effectively support any of the other squads in objective taking or defending.

 

IMO I think the list has a lot a dangerous looking units forcing your opponent to make some difficult target priority decisions. The Sternies and Pedro are a formidable fire team and can generally afford to take a charge with Pedro's Inspirational Presence rule. The Scouts with the Chaplain are very nasty in CC and the Land Raider is an awesome fire-base, I've gone for a vanilla Land Raider for its anti-armour fire power which is a little lacking elsewhere in my army, but any flavour would work.

 

The Sniper Scouts are somewhat weak on paper but having the Dreanought close by makes them look like less of an easy target in close combat and 3+ cover saves all-round make them a pretty tough unit to fire on in cover. Telion's abilities make the harassment factor of this squad a concern for your opponent. Also, by Giving the Dreadnought a Drop Pod you can still Infiltrate your Snipers if necessary.

 

The Tactical Squad in a Rhino is probably the least threatneing unit of the list but it's mobile (in a Rhino) tough to kill and scoring .. what's not to like about that! Finally the Land Speeders and Predator should be concerns fr any general as they have great anti-infantry and anti armour capability and are mobile (particularly the speeders).

 

I'm pretty confident that this would be an effective all-comers list for tournament play but I'm interested in the opinions of the people who have already commented above as your above comments have influenced my thinking in putting this list together.

[spartan249]

I believe that the strongest attribute of the vanilla codex is the ability to take withering amounts of high strength, high accuracy, and medium durability weapons and weapons platforms. The Ideal list should have an abundance of units that are cost-effective, S6-S8 to maximize light armor penetration and infantry killing, and mobile enough to shift to ever morphing strategies.

 

My sample 2k tourney list:

 

2000 pts "Sample Tourney List"

HQ

Master of the Forge: Conversion Beamer, Bike - 155 pts

Troops

Tactical Squad: 10 Marines, Lascannon, Flamer, Power fist, Razorback - 245 pts

Tactical Squad: 10 Marines, Lascannon, Flamer, Power fist, Razorback - 245 pts

Tactical Squad: 10 Marines, Lascannon, Flamer, Power fist, Razorback - 245 pts

Heavy Support

Predator: Heavy Bolter Sponsons - 85 pts

Predator: Heavy Bolter Sponsons - 85 pts

Predator: Heavy Bolter Sponsons - 85 pts

Elites

Dreadnought: TL lascannon, Heavy Flamer - 145 pts

Dreadnought: TL lascannon, Heavy Flamer - 145 pts

Dreadnought: TL lascannon, Heavy Flamer - 145 pts

Fast Attack

Land Speeder Squadron: 2 Land Speeders, Multi-melta & Heavy Bolter - 140 pts

Land Speeder Squadron: 2 Land Speeders, Multi-melta & Heavy Bolter - 140 pts

Land Speeder Squadron: 2 Land Speeders, Multi-melta & Heavy Bolter - 140 pts

 

There are no vital parts to the army, but every unit is a threat to just about any target, and destroying a dreadnought here or a land speeder squadron there will not derail the overall plan of the list, which is to get as many shots into the enemy in as little time as possible. Combat Tactics shines here, as any infantry squad being assaulted only needs to lose by 1 to fall back, and as they are in combat squads, their loss is negligible. However, when they do fall back, they will be open to ALL of the return fire, which is considerable in this list.

 

Obviously, this list will be using terrain to it's advantage, trying to set itself up with 1 or 2 distintive choke points to concentrate fire upon. As very little of the list actually depends on blast templates to get numbers of shots in, having a choke point is only a small boon, not a necessity, as terrain control is almost never present at a tournament.

 

Staying simple and avoiding point sinks is the way to go to 1: Get bodies on the field, and 2: get enough firepower to neutralize 1 or 2 full units per shooting phase. With the wide distribution of firepower in the list, you can easily change targets should the first lucky lascannon hit finish the job.

 

Cheap. Effective. Deadly.

[Gornall]

I believe that the strongest attribute of the vanilla codex is the ability to take withering amounts of high strength, high accuracy, and medium durability weapons and weapons platforms. The Ideal list should have an abundance of units that are cost-effective, S6-S8 to maximize light armor penetration and infantry killing, and mobile enough to shift to ever morphing strategies.

 

That sounds like a pretty solid philosophy, and I ain't gonna lie... I think that sample list would be pretty nasty.

[minigun762]

With a few minor changes, I think that would be a very nice list Spartan249.

 

I think the main thing its lacking is the lack of a counter-assault unit. While Dreads and Tacticals are ok, I'd like to see something able to block a assault unit.

[Giga]

@fudal78

 

I don't particularly like that list. It doesn't really have anything overly dangerous in it, and it lacks counter-assault units. I think you'd do better with a librarian instead of a chaplain.

 

@spartan249

 

That sort of list does look scary and feasible on paper. However, the one thing I'm worried about it is that, even though that kind of firepower seems impressive for space marines, I am not sure it can really stand to the equivalent amount of firepower an IG, Tau, Eldar etc. army can deliver in the same point value.

 

Though that list does seem pretty nice, and I might be trying something like that someday. :)

[spartan249]

Including counter assault units is something the opponent will suspect. Thus, the opponent will try to find the counter-attack element in the list, something like a land raider full of terminators, and seeing nothing, feel suddenly lost. That uber unit of killy nonsense suddenly has 16 targets to choose from instead of 1 or 2, and the bewildering amount of things to attack convey a false sense of choice when, really, any choice they make will be the wrong choice. That one precious assault phase will have been spent killing a combat squad, or a dreadnought, or a predator, which is a pittance compared to the price of that uber unit. And by the same note, we will have a very easy time picking out target priority, as we know what the opponent values above all else in his list.

 

To Giga, I know for a fact that IG can field more guns that are more powerful than the space marine's arsenal. There are, however, a few things that set us apart from them. 1: our infantry can actually survive pretty well, and are immune to sweeping advance, therefore, are not as suseptible to dying completely to bad LD rolls or Initiative rolls. This makes our infantry able to sprint across a firing line with a higher probability of surviving. 2: Our BS is higher. IG are firing more guns at a lesser accuracy, so while IG guns are amazingly powerful and effective, they're only hitting half the time. Their weapons platforms are also, overall, more fragile than our weapons platforms. Our net power is strangely equal in that regard, although some believe that rolling more dice facilitates luck. I don't know, I just play marines because they look cool. Yes, IG can put out lots of fire power, but they work in the same way orks work: Quantity, not Quality. If you like weighing your luck by rolling lots of dice, IG is the army to play. For those of you who play Craps all the time and win, Space Marines can serve you better.

 

Tau are a slightly different beast. Tau follow in some of the same veins of the IG method of warfare, but have a critical weakness: Their line troops and heavy artillery depend on support elements to up their effectiveness, and if you can successfully identify and eliminate those support elements, I.E. Stealth Suits with Networked Markerlights, Pathfinders, Pirahnas, Cheap Shas'os with Positional Relays, then the rest of their shooting suddenly becomes very similar to Space Marine capabilities. They'll simply be more powerful in the to wound rolls as opposed to the to hit rolls.

 

Eldar have been and always will be trouble. However, the mech gunline approach to space marines stands a much better chance than an assault based approach because of one thing that all space marine players forget: Eldar have the lowest AV values for their vehicles. How do they cover up this weakness? Through speed, cover saves, forcing rerolls, and other such things. Expensive and powerful Anti-armor weapons like Lascannons and Conversion Beamers and Multi-Meltas are missing the thing you need against speedy vehicles: Quantity. It takes pure dice rolling to get past the cover saves, the spirit stones, the force shields, and all the other survival tools that eldar vehicles use to keep their mech moving. While there are a few lascannons in the list I made above, There are also quite a few lower strength weapons that fire more often. It does not take much to penetrate eldar armor, and most weapons are treated as S8 weapons in the first place. Multi-Meltas and Lascannons are overkill on eldar vehicles, and are best left at home simply because they roll one dice. This is where the dakka predator can come into its element: 2 S7 shots and 6 S5 shots can score glances and occasional penetrates on the target, and quantities of dice will punch through those cover saves and other vehicle shenanigans. They are also highly effective against Eldar Infantry, so the moment those skimmers disgorge their contents, those contents become prey to the mountains of high accuracy medium strength weapons we bring to bear. Eldar also happen to suffer from the same lack of BS for their line troops that the IG and Tau have to face. As Eldar are only slightly more numerous than space marines (Unless they take mass guardians, and lord knows you wish you had vanguard veterans then >.>), they work in the same way that Tau work: Higher strength and lower AP weapons, but trouble hitting with it.

 

We may look like we have much less dakka on the board, but that is because we can hit much more accurately across the board. If IG had BS 4 on all of their heavy weapons teams and leman russes, then Space Marines would become utterly useless. Our higher skill and higher survivability are paid for by the premium rate prices, and reduced amounts of dakka is what we pay for our kick ass stats. Combine kick ass stats with large amounts of weapons, and we're looking at a pretty good setup.

[Grey Mage]

While I disagree on your statements for tau, youve got the Eldar pretty much pegged.

 

Id say that your lists main strength is in sheer number of vehicles and weapons, not in survivability as a whole. That is a list Id like to play against some time, just to see what happens.

[spartan249]

XD I did say the list was filled with high strength, high accuracy, and medium durability weapons platforms.

 

Most of the tournament build tau lists I've seen work that way, so if you see other things going on with Tau players, maybe you can enlighten us.

[Grey Mage]

1500pts is standard around here, with the occaisional 1850 as a large tournament.

 

Mostly its something along these lines:

 

Shas'o with bodygaurd, running around 250pts.

4 Firewarrior squads, occaisionally mounted

3 Broadsides

Stealth Suits or Crisis suits.

Often a second Command Squad

Sniper Team or Pathfinders.

 

Command Squads tend towards shield generators, broadsides always have shield drones, markerlight drones are common in command squads. Devilfish are occaisionally seen, and usually they drop stealthsuits or the second command squad to make up some of those points, trimming the rest from the firewarrior squads.

 

One guy, and only one, plays a Kroot Heavy list... but hes never placed in the top half, let alone the top 3, save once in the painting section.

 

Few, if any, take Piranahs- they are usually seen as redundant to Stealth suits or Crisis teams. I have yet to see anyone take a positional relay, and I note you can only have one per army anyways.

 

Hammerheads tend to be common when the players are coming on mounted, with the one player who does take piranahs on occaision always backing them up with up with a Hammerhead and a pair of Broadsides.

 

Pathfinders always have Rail Rifles and a target lock. Theyre used for their high value of markerlights, and are one of the few true support units I see. Stealth Suits on the other hand are used as tank hunters.

[spartan249]

Kill the pathfinders, stealth suits/crisis suits, then advance and pour fire down on the devilfish/fire warriors, staying in cover to provide cover saves for all the armor. Ignore the Broadsides and HQ unless they are targets of opportunity or are positioned in a commanding field of fire. Killing the support units and locking down the movement capabilities of the devilfish are top priority, while silencing his big guns and HQ are secondary considerations. While Fire Warrior squads can glance Razorbacks, the odds are very low, and with further cover saves protecting against half of those glances, the razorbacks are relatively safe. The Broadsides, undeniably the scariest guns in the tau armory, right next to the hammerhead, are, in the end, 3 shots. 3 shots turn into 1, maybe 2, penetrating hits, of which half will outright destroy one tank, if the tanks are not in cover. With cover, the odds go down by 50%, so it would take two vollies average to permanently down 1 tank. These kinds of losses are acceptable as long as the space marines can deny the tau army mobility and markerlight / short range anti-armor support. Once those support elements are taken care of, we have improved mobility and can take territory easier, flanking those broadsides and HQ units and wiping them out if the dice gods permit.

 

While not a fool proof plan, it is the plan I use against Tau, and have been using to great success so far. Scythe their legs down, then cut off their head. The rest will follow.

[Grey Mage]

The tau in return destroys all three of your predators and starts in on your dreadnaughts by the end of his second shooting phase, with an average of 8 hits the fire warrior squads are quite likely to get their shots off on your transports, but most likely they will target your landspeeders that have to get close to do their jobs. The HQ in turn targets your transports and troops, as would the second crisis team.

 

+1 on the damage roll, 3+ to damage, and with 75-88% chance of hitting a set of 3 broadsides is quite capable of crippling two predators a turn. Plasma Rifles and Missile Pods give the Crisis teams enough firepower to take on speeder squadrons and dreads, or to support the firewarriors in destroying tactical squads. Crisis teams can almost gaurantee a destroyed vehicle a turn if ignored, 6 str 6 shots and a meltagun are rather effective.

 

Best way Ive found of killing them is to concentrate firepower on the suits while nuking firewarrior squads with whirlwinds behind cover. Use scouts to tie up the command squad, often killing it with an attached WG, *a LSS squad could replicate this in C:SM*, and to use rhinos as moving cover to advance towards the assault via running, using natural cover whenever possible. Wipe their Firewariors in assault, take on their vehicles at close range where disruption pods will be worthless.

[Giga]

@ spartan 249

 

Very interesting philosophy, I must say.

 

However, I disagree about IG's lack of accuracy. IG melta platforms (veterans) have BS4, and are usually driving around in superior transports (vendettas and chimeras). So their capability to pop our vehicles at meltarange is no worse then our own capability to do the same.

 

As for the rest of dangerous IG stuff, a lot of it is pieplates, which pretty much negates the entire BS3 disadvantage, as at the very worst it means 1" more scatter.

 

Also, the BS3 is largely minimized thanks to the "BRING IT DOWN" and "FIRE ON MY MARK" orders. Combined, these allow the IG heavy weapons teams to shoot TL lascannons into your vehicles while at the same time denying you your cover save (if you have any to begin with).

 

Simply put, while I do agree that your list is definitely interesting and would be hard to beat for many people, I feel there's no way it could ever stand up to a properly played IG list at the same points. Even with reduced accuracy, the amount of firepower 2000pts IG can put out is staggering. Just think of all those manticores, leman russes, etc.

 

This, on its own, makes me reconsider it as a viable all-comers list.

 

 

 

Do say, however, how would you make a similar list at the 1500 pts range? Do you think it would work?

[Giga]

So spartan249's philosophy has really gotten me thinking. This is a rough list I came up with that would, I think, suit my local metagame pretty well;

HQ:

Master of the Forge - 120 pts

- conversion beamer

 

TROOPS:

Tactical Squad "Red" - 215 pts

- flamer

- plasma cannon

- razorback

 

Tactical Squad "Yellow" - 215 pts

- flamer

- plasma cannon

- razorback

 

ELITES:

Dread with 2x TL-autocannon - 125 pts

 

Dread with 2x TL-autocannon - 125 pts

 

Dread with TL-lascannon and heavy flamer - 145 pts

 

FAST ATTACK:

MM/HF Speeder x2 - 140 pts

 

MM/HF Speeder x2 - 140 pts

 

MM/HF Speeder x2 - 140 pts

 

HEAVY SUPPORT:

Combipred - 120 pts

 

Combipred - 120 pts

 

Combipred - 120 pts

Comes out at 1725 pts. I felt spartan's list kinda lacked that long range anti-tank short of those 3 tl-lascannons on dreads, so I went the other way, using combipreds instead of dakkapreds, and equipping dreads to be able to deal with infantry & light vehicles alike. I also abandoned the DCCWs on 2 out of 3 dreads, feeling they weren't really useful to this list. Also went with some plasma cannons on tacticals, which are my preferred heavy weapon for tacticals. There are a total of 7 heavy flamers, for those green tides and the like.

[Gornall]

I think it loses a little in the translation, as you're losing bodies, number of shots, and range (specifically in the Landspeeders).

[spartan249]

It's a variation of the same concept. To each his own, I say.

 

The master of the forge has a bike to give him 4x the maneuverability he had before. As positioning is everything, I give everyone the ability to move more than 6" a turn.

 

I put the 3 tac squads in the list because of the distinct possibility that there may be more than one objective on the field, thus giving me options for claiming those objectives.

 

I had 6 lascannons in the list before, 3 of which were twin-linked. All of the weapons were at 36" or 48", so with that medium range, you could begin firing as soon as the game began. I think that not shooting from T1 is a waste of dakka and points.

 

One more thing about the land speeders: Their weakest position to be in is within 12" of infantry and 18" of vehicles. I tried to avoid having them close the distance as long as possible, and as a side effect, they were suddenly able to take on two different roles: infantry hunter and tank killer. Giving land speeders Multi-Meltas and Heavy Flamers is a powerful combination, but the combo is asking to be dragged down from the sky by enraged infantry, and getting into flamer range is asking for the speeder to go kamikaze. I personally prefer to have the speeder be able to shoot down infantry from 36" away, then be able to zip in and melt tanks the next turn.

 

For chipping away parts of the list, it's all up to personal preference, really. As I said, nothing in the list was vital to it's operation, so you can pick and choose what to take off. I would personally take off a tactical squad and one of each other unit until I had enough points.

 

IG is the toughest opponent for this type of army to face, but it can be done. Once again, we are ironically more faceless than the IG, who rely on orders, LD tests, and fragile vehicle squadrons to do their job. I did not say that IG were horrendous with accuracy, I just said we were better. A viable change to the list that I'd consider is swapping out a predator for a whirlwind. While the whirlwind will attract tons of hate, concentrated hate isn't a bad thing at all. That means my other units are under less pressure, and are thus able to do their job without fear. And it'd give those heavy weapons teams and wallodudes something to think about.

[Kay]

VERY interesting reading so far guys, poats like this one are the reason why B&C shines.

After reading your opinions and experiences, im gonna dare to post i think would do good at a tourney;

 

Lysander (i really love the dude, he is like my fetish xd)

Libby

 

6ass terms

Tllc dread with hf

 

8snipers+telion(got some sucess focusing MCs)

2 tac squads w/ meltagun ml meltabombs and rhino

 

2 vindicators with siege shield

Lrc

 

2typhoon ls

 

1995

 

I find it to have pretty nice anti-av, above average anti-infantry, cc monster, and multiple threat. It may be lacking a 4th scoring unit...

 

What do you guys think?

 

Back on topic i feel wh40k has become a mathgame. No longer fluff care, and the "i have it in my list cuz i just like it" is gone. All it cares is how good or bad it is.

 

I guess thats why i dont shine at tournments. I always try to make lists that, while competitives, have some substance into it. The ls-dread-pred list above is pretty nice, but i donts see a real sm commander fielding that (as real as a sm can be)

 

What i come to say is, besides how deadly your army is, when you come to play, you really enjoy playing it? Or is it just the winning at all costs what motivates you (may be okfor sum1, but doesnt fit me.) Was there any unit you just liked or thought was cool, and you dindt include it cuz it may do poorly? Did you have fun?

 

That is what i ask myself and urge you to ask yourselves. If i loose a tourney but one battle made an heroic defence against a nid swarm untill they finally ate me, the next one managed to kill a chaos army with my lysnder 1vs1ing his DP and the 3rd one charged unto and ork waaagh (lets say, 1win 1loose 1draw, not impressive) having played those 3 battles with those 3 results, i'd be happy.

 

Thats for me, for those who dont agree... keep mathhammering.

 

Keep up the good threat. Very very helpful so far.

[Giga]

@ spartan 249

 

LOL, I actually didn't notice that you were using heavybolter+multimelta speeders, I thought you had mm/hf speeders. That'll teach me to read more more carefully. :/

 

Anyway, the heavybolter+multimelta does seem like an unusual, but pretty darn good combination. Well, that's another thing for me to test out. Gonna get myself some AoBR dreads now and convert some shooty guys. :)

 

 

 

 

@ Kay

 

The thing I dislike about your list is because it suffers from the eggs-in-basket syndrome. You have one LR with 6 terminators, lysander, and a libby. That's 825 pts in a single unit (providing you take extra armor and multimelta on that LR), which I think is too many points in a single place. A little lucky rolling on your opponents part, and you can end up with almost half of your points footslogging over the table, doing nothing.

 

As for the entire "fluff over effectiveness" and "I use this unit because I like it, not because its effective" thing... Well, the entire thing is pretty much a moot point for me, because I don't feel particular units are particularly more fun or fluffy then others.

 

For example, I don't think a MM/HF speeder is any less fun then a HB/AC speeder or a typhoon. They're all just speeders, after all. They're used in different ways, but they're speeders that all have 10 10 10 and work like glass cannons. Some just happen to be generally better then others. Same can be said about the entire codex, pretty much. There are variations, but they're all fluffy, and they all work the way I imagine they should work for my own DIY chapter. These winning lists I make are all actually lists I feel my own DIY chapter would be running normally. Those ARE their fluffy lists.

 

Speaking of fluff, I also find it exceedingly unfluffy not to play to win when playing marines. I mean, marines are the pinacle of warrior might, what the imperial guard can't conquer, the space marines destroy. We are SUPPOSED to stomp all over the opposition, slaughtering them without mercy and winning with a large margin and few - if any - losses. The only times when losing more then 4-5 marines per battle is acceptable, is when we're fighting necrons, daemons, CSM, craftworld Eldar, or other SM.

 

One more big factor I find is, I don't think units that aren't effective on the table ARE fun. I mean, I deride very little fun from buying a 10-men sniper squad, then spending time and energy assembling & painting them, and then having them suck on the tabletop. It's just not entertaining to use a unit that can't contribute to the battle. It's very unfluffy in my eyes, not to mention it's a waste of my money (hey, I'd love to have enough money to buy the entire space marine range twice over, but seeing as money doesn't grow on trees, I have to plan my shopping and buy stuff that will actually be useful in-game, otherwise I'll just end up with a shelf crowded with pretty-looking but useless models).

 

 

 

 

That being said, there IS one thing I don't like, and try to avoid putting in my lists, it's footslogging stuff. I hate footslogging because it's slow and stupid (I really can't see the humanity's finest slogging around and getting shot up without transports, tbh), but the main reason is because I hate physically moving all those models. That's why, when I was picking my 40k army, I didn't go for orks, nids, or IG - I simply didn't want to manually move tons of models. With MEQ it's easy, you just move a rhino, and voila, the entire unit has just moved. :P

 

Needless to say, this is one of the big reasons why I avoid using stuff like assault squads, footslogging fleeting terminators, scouts, etc. Not to mention it actually goes against my DIY fluff (Steel Slayers are the sort of chapter that shoots a lot and generally avoids close combat, with only a small amount of assault specialists in the entire chapter).

[Giga]

Now, let's talk about Vindicators.

 

What do you guys think about vindicators in all-comers list?

 

 

 

 

 

I myself have very little experience with vindicators. I sort of feel they're like that orbital bombardment on the chapter master. They are potentially extremely deadly, but they're also very hit and miss. I fought against dual vindicator army on multiple occasions, and I always found cover and being mech went a long way towards nullifying the power of vindicators. Not to mention at side armor 11, they're quite easy to shake or stun.

 

However, they also go a long way towards adding to the target saturation of an army. People are afraid of vindis, after all, and will go to great lengths to destroy, or at least shake them. Which is where CSM are luckier then us, they can get daemonically possessed vindicators.

 

Share your experiences! Did you see/play/fightagainst a tourney list that used one or more vindicators? How did it fare? How were they used?

[Brother Captain Josef]

Reason for EDIT: Never mind, too slow :lol:

[spartan249]

I'm kind of stoked that 5th edition moved more toward mech, as that's exactly how today's marines and army's mechanized and cavalry divisions work.

 

@Giga:

I had a good laugh when you said you didn't see the heavy bolters on the speeders XD I do that occasionally, so I totally forgive you.

 

Vindicators, is it? Well, When they are included, they are fielded with lots of playmates to go with them, and they are almost always used in a defensive manner. Read: in area terrain with an objective 12"-18" away from them. When the opponent tries to claim said objective, the vindicator creaks out of cover, then lays down the hurt. With the multiple vindicator lists, this is repeated multiple times, making objectives secondary considerations in the face of the vindicators. AV 13 in cover is a pain to get rid of, especially if the player knows how to cover his flanks.

 

(edit: Ninja'd >.>)

 

@Kay

I do agree that the game has become a game of calculating what combination of units will give you the highest probability of victory against the most army types as possible, but that's how tournaments are. Nobody remembers who got 4th place, or 3rd, or 2nd. 1st place is the throne, and every contender has their eyes on the prize, so it's natural that such hyper-competitive behavior would show itself. As for the sample list I made, I based it off an USMC ground team, and given my chapter's heraldry which includes elements of the imperial fists, using vehicles and tanks makes sense to me. Infantry survivability goes up tenfold when they have transports, it works the same way warfare today works. Vanilla space marines are one of the codecies in the game that put the strength in the right place: Mechanized Assault. Tyranids are skewed towards Nidzilla, Orks are taking Nob Bikerz and are hardly taking hordes anymore, Chaos is fielding units from two directly opposed chaos gods, things like that. If GW had kept the chapter traits system in the codex and not replaced it with the chapter tactics system, then the vanilla codex would have been perfect.

We aren't powergaming in the strictest sense. Chaos is, Tyranids are until next year, and even then, they might still do the same... We're doing exactly what the marines would be doing normally. Don't yell at us T.T

[Kay]

Ah! Dont get me wrong, im not being critic to you, but to the game itself and the actual playstyle. You guys are making what you are supposed to: analyzing different units. Fortunately, c:sm does not have an army list with a "the one list" label on it, like some other armies do. Im just saying that i prefer including lets call them "non-tourney units" (vanguard, lss teams, tfc...(in my list enhancing my playtime rather than my results.

@giga: i was talking about game fluff, not your personal fluff

 

Concerning vindicators, i find them very usefull, depending on your opponent, you could earn uts points back in just one lucky shot.

Additionally, it is not just their firepower what counts, but also the psycollogical factor. One, yet better two vindis will make ur opponent dedicate them a lot of attention, not for what they really do, but for what they could.