Creating a tourney All-Comers list with Vanilla Dex

[Pulse]

I tend to use two vindicators i find them very useful for the reasons above, people tend to focus on them much more, but the amount of pain they can cause tends to make me laugh when i slap a pie chart down on my opponent models, just to see the look on the faces is enough for me ( i play to win) lol. :)

[Grey Mage]

Vindicators are powerful but for my money Id rather have a dreadnaught- more flexable overall in my opinion. If I need pie plates I pull out a pair of whirlwinds, wich are an absolute steal for 170pts.

 

That being said I never snub my nose at a list that runs 2 of them, they just dont often match my playstyle. I like to get my boys close to the fight before hitting the enemy with an assault... and the vindicators short range means it also has to be close, and thus is more likely to hit my own guys than with a standard codex list.

[Pulse]

Your right Grey Mage dreadnaughts are more flexable, and whirlwinds are very good for the cheap cost, i just like the impact a pair of Vindicators can have! :D

 

I must admit my style is fairly similar getting the lads in close and going all out at an enemy, although i tend to mix it up with long range.

[Giga]

Im just saying that i prefer including lets call them "non-tourney units" (vanguard, lss teams, tfc...(in my list enhancing my playtime rather than my results.

I believe playing around with "non-tourney units" is actually productive to tourney players, because by playing around with all sorts of lists and perfecting suboptimal tactics, the player learns the nuances of his army better then most people, and hence will be able to better asses the relative value of units as well as deal with a variety of unexpected situations.

 

Vanguard are a good example of this. Many people see them, and automatically assume they suck, only to be unpleasantly surprised when they come across a guy who has learned how to maximize the potential of his vanguard and make their role extremely important to his army. Different units have different value in different armies and when played by different players - just because th/ss termies are generally better doesn't mean vanguard can't be way better then th/ss termies in the hands of particular players and when backed up by particular lists. I hope that made sense. ;)

 

And after all, there's the modeling & painting enjoyment too. I myself am having fun modeling my own 10 men vanguard unit these days, to use in casual matches and mini-tournaments. ;)

@giga: i was talking about game fluff, not your personal fluff

It doesn't matter. DIY fluff is endorsed, and even promoted, by GW. Just because Pedro Cantor happens to be the chapter master of crimson fists, it doesn't mean it's somehow amoral or unfair (ludicrous notions, both) for me to use him to represent my own chapter master, for example. Even GW agrees with this.

 

Hence, no fluff discrepancy exists, and it definitely shouldn't be a factor when writing a grand tourney list. After all, in tournaments you know you'll be facing WAAC lists, and hence, when in rome, do as romans do philosophy is the order of the day.

[Kay]

You missunderstood me. By personal fluff i meant the part you argued it wasnt fluffy paying certain price for something you cant afford. Theres nothing wrong with DIY

 

On topic, you cannot compare vindicator's pie with the ww's one...

[Grey Mage]

You missunderstood me. By personal fluff i meant the part you argued it wasnt fluffy paying certain price for something you cant afford. Theres nothing wrong with DIY

 

On topic, you cannot compare vindicator's pie with the ww's one...

I can, and I do- they are two artillery tanks, one is designed for short range and high damage output, the other is for long range and medium damage output and saturation.

 

I prefer the latter, others prefer the former.

 

And yes, I have destroyed enemy tanks with Whirlwinds. Mostly transports, but pen'd and destroyed none the less- 2d6 pick the highest, just like a vindicator.

[Kay]

Well, i dont. They fullfill complete diferent roles and they are complete different tanks. Having just a large pie in common and saying they are similar is like comparing a land raider and a wartrukk cuz thhe have a frontal of 14.

 

Wws are designed to thin hordes, and as you say, saturation, but even if you score a hit on 10 marines you are killing what, 2? 3at best. Score not 10, 7 meq hits with a vindicator. You will likely kill them all. Same goes for termis, t6 eldars, ork nobz, meganobz, necron immortals, and if rumours are true, nid warrioors who now have 3w but no longer eternal warriors. Any unit from the previous will vanish under a vindicato pie, but will laugh at a ww.

 

You may have killed vehicules with a ww, but you will agree with me that you were quite lucky (i killed a wartrukk with shotguns this week but that doesnt mean scouts with shotguns exceed at av hunting) the str10 pie from the vindi is more likely to turn a vehocule upside down than ww's str5.

 

The ww is much better when facing low ress low save armies, and intense shooting armies. Tau eldar of both sides, nid swarms, ork hordes and even guard once u pop their chimeras. Against those armies wws really do their joband beyond, cuz to wound rolls are not much of an issue an in most cases you will be denying both armor saves and cover ones, and their shooting abilities (not orks and nids lol) will be rendered useless because they wont see the ww, so the will have to put extra effort in killing it

 

As you see, to me they are complete different

[Grey Mage]

When I hit a tactical squad, and by hit I mean cover 10 models I expect to kill about 3 from experiance.

 

Whirlwinds also has two things against Termies, nobz, meganobz, necrons etc that a whirlwind doesnt- the ability to fire indirectly and the ability to pin. Both are incredibly valuable, and prove themselves to me game after game.

 

And yes, your right... str 10 is more likely to penetrate a vehicle than str 5. Of course, but against transports, undoubtedly one of the most common vehicles in the game, the flexability to either destroy a squad that was forced out of its transport in your enemies deployment zone in the opening salvos or to get another crack at that same vehicle shouldnt be overlooked.

 

And I do see what your saying, theyr focus is in different areas, but they are still both the only things marines have that can be called "artillery" outside of the thunderfire cannon. Its the difference between a 12 gauge shotgun and a 20 gauge shotgun- theyre both shotguns, but you hunt different things with each... and either of them well say "get off my lawn" with a respectably loud voice.

[Kay]

Ok, lets reach a mid-point

Do you agree on "they are both artillery, but they have different roles"?

 

although i like the ww, i like the vindi better, not only i like more imagining a BOOOOM! sound rather than a ZZZASSS! Sound, but also the image of the vindicator. Get a brick, put the biggest caliber you find on it, there u go! :cuss! Even the name sounds cooler xD

[Grey Mage]

Ok, lets reach a mid-point

Do you agree on "they are both artillery, but they have different roles"?

 

although i like the ww, i like the vindi better, not only i like more imagining a BOOOOM! sound rather than a ZZZASSS! Sound, but also the image of the vindicator. Get a brick, put the biggest caliber you find on it, there u go! :cuss! Even the name sounds cooler xD

Lol, well good sir it is your army, and far be it from me to reduce the coolness factor in your eyes! We are easily agreed.

[Kay]

What about predators? Loadout, tactica...?

[Giga]

I like my predators in two types;

 

Combipred (autocannon+lascannon sponsors) and the standard dakkapred (autocannon+HB sponsors). The triple lascannon pred is just overpriced for what it does, IMHO.

 

Basically, I just put my predators on a hill somewhere to give it good line of sight. From then on, it spends the rest of the battle pivoting on the spot on shooting and at stuff.

 

The thing is, both of these predators are very cheap, so they don't form a big part of your army and work as a good alternative to the crappy devastator squads. The combipred is particularly useful, IMHO, as it serves as all-around okay anti-vehicle and good anti-MC. A lascannon has 33% chance of glancing or penetrating AV14, after all, and two such shots go a long way towards ensuring that actually happens.

[Gaz1858]

Hi, my names gary and Im a combi-pred lover

 

120 points for it it has to be one of the best options in AT for Marines. Coming with a AV13 front makes it a bit more durable aswell. The best Heavy Support vehicle there is IMO.

[Kay]

Would 2 combipreds+the meltas in 2tacticals and the one in the lrc (and a vindicator) fulfill the anti av role, or do i need anything else?

[Gaz1858]

Id asay thats pretty much sown up!!

[Captain Idaho]

Hi, my names gary and Im a combi-pred lover

 

120 points for it it has to be one of the best options in AT for Marines. Coming with a AV13 front makes it a bit more durable aswell. The best Heavy Support vehicle there is IMO.

 

I concur as he has used it against me and it was the unit I feared most (actaully the drop podding Iron Clad was until it died due to bad luck).

 

I would be happy to have a combi-Predator in my list, alongside my Twin linked lascannon/Heavy bolter - 250pts for 2 great tanks. Thing is they can work well together as anything they gang up against will really suffer. The 6 HB shots will bolster 3 Lascannon and 2 Autocannon shots nicely.

 

I have a hankering for adding both into my list now!

[minigun762]

From an outsiders perspective, it seems that Plasma Cannon Devs would be a great buy. Same logic as Obliterators for Chaos but you can buy more of them in a single squad and have more bullet sponges to keep them alive. Plus you can cheaply add a TL Heavy Bolter Razorback to the squad to help finish off weakened units.

 

With the Whirlwind, an interesting idea is to buy a Razorback and use it just as an escort unit for the Whirlwind. Block LOS to it and take up space so deepstrikers can't reach it all the while blasting nearby enemies.

[Giga]

From an outsiders perspective, it seems that Plasma Cannon Devs would be a great buy.

At 25 points per a plasma cannon? I don't think it's cost worthy.

[minigun762]

From an outsiders perspective, it seems that Plasma Cannon Devs would be a great buy.

At 25 points per a plasma cannon? I don't think it's cost worthy.

 

You can always put a cheaper weapon in there and not use a full 10 man squad.

 

If I was to do a Loyalist Army, I'd like to use this:

8 Devastators, 1 Heavy Bolter, 3 Plasma Cannons, TLHB Razorback = 268 points.

About the same price as a decked out Land Raider, but you're packing 5 heavy weapons that will do a good job of killing any infantry unit, most MCs and even threaten light armor. Plus you can fire them at 2 targets if you wanted.

I went with the HB because I think its the best of the cheap choices for using that BS5, though the ML would be a close 2nd.

[Bannus]

The triple lascannon pred is just overpriced for what it does, IMHO.

But could be very effective when combined with Cronus.

 

My personal favorite tank killer is.....a tank.

 

MkIII Land Raider with a pintle-mounted multi-melta.

 

You can roll forward at 6" and fire both lascannon sponsons at long range or scoot forward 12" and pop something close with the multi-melta (this can suprise some opponents). If you have He'stan in the army, it is also twin-linked. (or chronus can give it BS5). makes for a nasty tank-hunter IMO.

 

Did I mention it carries troops, too? :)

[Gornall]

Yeah... I know a lot of people don't like the Vanilla LR, but I think it serves a useful purpose in SM armies. I don't think we should be rushing at opponents (with the exception of maybe Tau/Guard), but rather trying to outshoot/out-manuever them. The Lascannon LR provides some more long-range support while you wait for your opponent to get close enough to counter-charge with whatever you have chilling inside. It makes a great transport stopper on Turns 1-2, as it does a number on AV10-11. Yes, ACs are actually as good if not better at busting up tanks, but Lascannons/Heavy Bolters allow you to start working on your opponent almost immediately, something the other LR variants can't do.

 

I know one of my normal Lash opponents hates it when my LR sits in place and unleashes everything into some poor Daemon Prince...

[minigun762]

Codex Land Raiders are awesome for the simple fact that you can target more then 1 unit with them. That alone is priceless.

Add in the Multi-Melta option as well as having a 12 man capacity and it makes me sad to think about our pitiful little Chaos Raiders.

[spartan249]

I personally like the Godhammer Land Raider for 3 reasons. 1: It boasts 2 twin-linked lascannons for long ranged sniping, 2: carries valuable things in them, and 3: is versatile in it's role in your army. Holding an objective with a GHLR and 5 scouts inside while the rest of my army blitzkriegs across the table to grab the opponent's objective is amusing. Contesting/claiming an objective with the GHLR and 5 scouts in it is a bargain bastion parked on an objective, and if you put the land raider on the middle of the objective, they HAVE to explode it to get your fat carcass off of the objective. Place the objective on the side of some impassible terrain, then park the land raider with one side to the impassible, and it's suddenly unclaimable unless the opponent manages to explode the land raider and deal with the contents and the rest of your army. On the flip side, you can load it up with your hammer unit of vanguard vets or terminators and ride across the field with your other vehicles, disgorging your contents and backing up to provide flank support like one of the more aggresive variants of the land raider.

 

On the subject of plasma cannon devastators, 4 plasma cannons are intimidating as hell, and can kill boatloads of enemies that are not tactically aware or careful. 270 points for a full squad of 10 with 4 plasma cannons is only 30 points more expensive than my regular tactical squad + transport, so I don't think they're too expensive. It's just too bad we can't infiltrate devastators anymore... that was a lot of fun to do. I used to run 3 squads of 10 devastators with 12 plasma cannons overall in just the devastators. With the melta and Pfist equipped tactical squads melting tanks that wandered too close, it was my favorite Raven Guard style army. Heck, the 4 Pcannon Devie squad got 20 points cheaper from 4th to 5th, and the sergeant comes with the BS5 granting signum, something only techmarines had in 4th. The only reason I don't take them anymore is that they can no longe infiltrate, which means I have to move them into optimal positions most of the time.

[Giga]

The thing I don't like about devastator squads (plasmacannon or otherwise) is that:

 

- they're overpriced compared to predators and land raiders

- they aren't scoring

- they automatically lose an entire turn of shooting in dawn of war deployment

- they suffer from leadership tests and can be killed with any weapon in the game

- having a tank is way cooler then just having a bunch of marines with heavy weapons

 

Whatever devs can do, other things can do better. If I badly wanted plasma cannons, I could always get a 5 men unit of sternguard with two plasma cannons for considerably fewer points. Simply put, I think the designers were smoking pot when they wrote down devastator weapon prices. If anything, they should have access to very cheap heavy weapons, to balance them out.

But could be very effective when combined with Cronus.

A triple lascannon predator with cronus would cost 235 pts. At this point, why not just get yourself a land raider instead? Or even better, get two combipreds for 240 pts? Or an entire squadron of mm/hf speeders? Or add some points and get an entire squadron of typhoons? All those are way better then a three BS5 lascannons that can be shaken with a single glancing shot.

 

When it comes to long-range anti-tank, quantity over quality is the order of the day. ;)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Speaking of land raiders, I agree with spartan. I feel the standard land raider fills a niche in vanilla lists that makes it the absolute best choice. Redeemer has too short range and draws too much fire (a single immobilized result renders it useless). A crusader is too focused on anti-infantry.

 

The LR classic brings forth some much-needed reliable long-range anti-tank/MC. It adds to the overall vanilla versatility. Especially in this age of mass mech.

[spartan249]

Well, Devastator Squads are a bit on the expensive side, but I think the thought behind doubling/tripling the weapons prices was that you were also paying for the ability to take 4 of them in one squad of marines. I still think the prices should be reduced by 5 points for each option, which would make me take devastators again, but they are undeniably powerful. Yes, a land raider and predator are cheaper and cooler, but devastator squads can be hidden much easier, and with the right setup, can be a pain in the butt to get rid of, especially when you can position them in a sweet spot with clear terrain in front of a fortified area. Also consider that Sternguard are 9 points more expensive than devastators, they can only pack 2 heavy weapons, and they take up a precious elites slot that should be used for the hammer units in your army, not the fire base or anvil of your army.

 

Devastators are not easy to use and require a lot of support from counter-charge units and anvil types, but they can be rewarding. Yes, Tactical squads and Sternguard squads can take heavy weapons, but not in the sheer quantity that devastator squads can pack, and there is no unit in the codex that can ram 4 lascannons or 4 plasma cannons into one slot, let alone have one of them at BS 5. Facing down 12 Plasma Cannons positioned in superior firing positions and higher ground is a very daunting prospect, especially when you have land speeders and melta tactical squads roaming around hunting any threats to those devastators. And, while they are expensive, you also have to consider that there are 18 bolter marines included with those 12 Pcannons/Lascannons/Missile Launchers. Ablative wounds and bolters are an important aspect to consider when assessing the worth of the devastator squad in your army. I used Plasma cannons back when it was a 4+ to hit when the blast template only covered half of the model. Now they hit no matter how little of the base the blast covers, which can get disgusting numbers of hits when having units piling through a choke point. A squad of 10 with 4 Plasma Cannons and Infiltrate cost me 320 points, and I gladly paid the price for the 3 squads.

 

Now that mech is more prevalent, I moved in the drop pod direction, and drop pods are not the ideal army to use devastators in. If chapter traits ever gets redesigned into the marine codex, I'll consider moving back to my old infiltration style army. Until then, it's sternguard and tacticals for me >.>