Creating a tourney All-Comers list with Vanilla Dex

[minigun762]

I believe that the strongest attribute of the vanilla codex is the ability to take withering amounts of high strength, high accuracy, and medium durability weapons and weapons platforms. The Ideal list should have an abundance of units that are cost-effective, S6-S8 to maximize light armor penetration and infantry killing, and mobile enough to shift to ever morphing strategies.

Cheap. Effective. Deadly.

 

Going back to this point, I think its something that really should be stressed. Codex Marines have alot of options for low priced long range firepower. Now you will never outgun a decent IG or Tau army but unlike both of those armies you aren't helpless in the assault phase. Especially now that the main meta game is transport heavy and your typical transport is AV11/12, you really need to be able to field alot of S6+ firepower. Meltas are great at killing but if the transport has already made it across the table, who really cares if it dies? This is why I'd push for any Codex list to consider things like Rifledreads, Combi-Predators, standard Land Raiders, Terminators with CML or Typhoon Speeders. Start pounding the opponent from turn 1 and don't let up. This long range firepower doesn't have to win the battle by itself, but the more transports you kill and the more support units you weaken, the easier it will be to mop them up when they're within 24" which is where you can bring your troop mounted weapons to bare.

 

TH/SS Terminators are great and Codex Land Raiders are awesome but I see so many people who feel that they have to have them, like a security blanket or something. 500+ points is too much to have "just in case". You need to make those an intergral part of your army but that same 500 points buys you alot of dakka.

[Giga]

Concerning the "have to have LR+termies". While you technically don't HAVE to have them, they are still a huge part of standard-built vanilla armies.

 

For one, that unit fulfills a variety of purposes;

 

- long range firepower (dual TL lascannons and TL heavy bolter on a highly-mobile and highly-accurate platform)

- target saturation (the unit and the LR draw a lot of firepower and unnerve the opponent)

- MC/vehicle/heavy infantry murder (th/ss termies do it better then anyone else)

- transport + retinue for a killy HQ

- highly effective way to deliver some strong punch to a specific location

- awesome models

- synergizes very well with the rest of the army, as it fills certain always-needed niches

 

 

 

 

Anyway, I'm currently writing an article on list building (as I see it), that is based heavily off what I've learned from this thread. When it's done, I'm going to post it up and have you guys gimme comment and help me improve it. :D

[Shen Al'ahn]

Having been very inspired by this discussion I decided I'd try my hand at adding an all-comers list of my own.

 

HQ

175pts. Captain: Relic Blade, Bike, Digital Weapons

 

Troops

290pts. 7 x Space Marine Bikes + Sergeant (Powerfist); 2 x Flamers, Attack Bike (HB)

 

300pts. 7 x Space Marine Bikes + Sergeant (Powerfist); 2 x Melta, Attack Bike (HB)

 

300pts. 7 x Space Marine Bikes + Sergeant (Powerfist); 2 x Melta, Attack Bike (HB)

 

Fast Attack

230pts. 9 x Assault + Sergeant (Thunder Hammer); Flamer

 

225pts. 9 x Assault + Sergeant (Powerfist); Flamer

 

Heavy

115pts. Vindicator

 

115pts. Vindicator

 

Total Points: 1750pts.

Total Models: 51 + 2 Vehicles

Scoring Units: 3 (6)

Kill Points: 8

 

 

This list is devestatingly fast. Able to redeploy instantly, it can bring it's full power to bear on any part of the table with relative ease and outmanuevre all but the fastest and/or largest armies in 40K. Every unit is fully capable of tackling tanks, MC's, or any kind of infantry my opponent fields and none are so vital to the battle plan that I can't live without them. If the mission is kill point based, I've got VERY few KP's on offer for a 1,750pts. list, and if the game is objective based... I can easily break up those bike squads into six scoring units without any real loss of effectiveness. If an opponent wants to shoot me... I can be in their face by turn two. If an opponent wants to assault me... I can stay well clear of them until I've softened them up enough to finish them off in CC. I'd like to think of this as a real all-comers list that'd be competitive in almost any environment; but, I'd certainly like to hear what the rest of you think.

[minigun762]

I think you're on to something Shen, but what I'm seeing is a lack of anti-tank options. You have some Power Fists and Meltaguns in the Biker squads and Assault Squads and the Vindicators are helpful in that area but all of this is short range and buried in other squads which might be better served killing infantry.

 

However the fix is easy I think.

1) With the squads with Meltaguns, give them a MM Attack Bike

2) The Assault Squads don't really offer anything you couldn't do with the Bikers. I would drop them and either buy some MM Attack Bikes, MM Land Speeders, RifleDreads or Ironclads in Pods.

[Shen Al'ahn]

I thought seriously about swapping the assualt marines for attack bikes minigun, but here's why I originally configured the force this way.

 

An armor heavy force isn't really going to bother this list much as they'll either have to remain stationary to get the full effect of their fire power (in which case their easy meat for all those power fists)... or they'll be moving around and vulnerable to being picked on by my entire force (which the list is fast enough to do). What's REALLY going to give this list a bad day is if it's up against a true horde.

 

You're absolutley right, there's little the Assualt Marines can do that the bikes can't... except bikes aren't so hot in CC unless they've been able to soften the unit up by pouring in a little dakka first. The assult marines are there to extricate the bikes from a close assault they're not going to win and get them back to doing what they do best; moving and shooting. It also gives me a few more bodies on the field to offset the fact that bike armies tend not to have too many boots on the ground... which can really hurt against those hordes. I know it's really only a couple of more boots... but I felt it'd offset the reduction in fire-power and help out where the army was weak.

 

Further, while adding a Multi-Melta to the Melta bike squads looks like a great idea, it's usually over-kill... and the melta's are really there as a utility weapon to make sure heavy-armor goes away when you need it to. Where the bikes want to be shooting is at infantry and the Heavy Bolter augments this role nicely. 36 twin-linked bolter shots and 3 Heavy Bolter rounds pouring into a maxed out Slugga Boyz squad? Yes, please!

 

Also, the whole force is meant to screen itself. With T5 and a 3++ save, turbo-boosting bikes are going to be able to take whatever's being dished at'em and still hit back. These will also screen the assualt marines... that'll only be a hair's bredth behind them after having run to catch up. And the Vindicators will get the cover save too... making all of the enemy's long range Anti-Tank just that much more ineffective; and by turn 2, so much of this army will be all over you that they might even forget about'em entirely (and if they don't... and decide to go for'em anyway... they're really going to get smacked down)!

 

And I know this isn't supposed to really figure into a thought experiment... but I also considered how much all of those attack bikes would cost... and it wasn't pretty. Let's just say you're accountant will be thanking you if you opt for the Assault Marines.

[minigun762]

I see your point about horde and while I agree in part, I think you have some additional resources.

The first is the Vindicators, lets face it S10 pieplates will help thin out any horde force. Second is the Bikes themselves. Packing TL Bolters that can hit out to 24" is a pretty nice way of thinning their lines and most hordies are S3/4 at best so your T5 on the bike will help keep you alive longer.

 

If it was my army, here is what I'd instead just to give you an idea:

1) Drop Ass Squads

2) Buy Whirlwind, TFC or Dakka Predator for 3rd Heavy slot

3) Upgrade to MM Attack Bikes for 1 Meltagun Bikers

4) Buy 4 Tornados

 

Now you have 1 dedicated anti-horde weapon as a Heavy, slightly more anti-tank in one of your Biker squads and 2 squads of a flexible fast weapon that can work at killing transports and hordes.

[Warp Angel]

I believe that the strongest attribute of the vanilla codex is the ability to take withering amounts of high strength, high accuracy, and medium durability weapons and weapons platforms. The Ideal list should have an abundance of units that are cost-effective, S6-S8 to maximize light armor penetration and infantry killing, and mobile enough to shift to ever morphing strategies.

Cheap. Effective. Deadly.

 

Going back to this point, I think its something that really should be stressed. Codex Marines have alot of options for low priced long range firepower. Now you will never outgun a decent IG or Tau army but unlike both of those armies you aren't helpless in the assault phase. Especially now that the main meta game is transport heavy and your typical transport is AV11/12, you really need to be able to field alot of S6+ firepower. Meltas are great at killing but if the transport has already made it across the table, who really cares if it dies? This is why I'd push for any Codex list to consider things like Rifledreads, Combi-Predators, standard Land Raiders, Terminators with CML or Typhoon Speeders. Start pounding the opponent from turn 1 and don't let up. This long range firepower doesn't have to win the battle by itself, but the more transports you kill and the more support units you weaken, the easier it will be to mop them up when they're within 24" which is where you can bring your troop mounted weapons to bare.

 

TH/SS Terminators are great and Codex Land Raiders are awesome but I see so many people who feel that they have to have them, like a security blanket or something. 500+ points is too much to have "just in case". You need to make those an intergral part of your army but that same 500 points buys you alot of dakka.

 

Couple of points here.

 

1) There's a reason that I advocate firebases as a critical part of an army build. You need the ability to reach out and touch someone with some hard hitting firepower.

2) You can substiture fast attack with melta for a firebase in SOME situations.

3) The point of 1 and 2 above (relevant to this part of the discussion at least) is to deny your enemy the ability to sit back an pummel you or advance their transports to where they want them.

 

Other than that, I completely agree with minigun's assessment of this part of the discussion.

[Giga]

@ Shen

 

That's definitely a nice biker list. It sure looks like something that would give most lists a run for their money.

 

However, I think it has some biggish problems when it comes to tournament metagame.

 

For one, it's a biker list. As such, it's extremely vulnerable to lash, psyker battle squads, hordes, and template-totting armies. You can have a 3+ cover save, but that still doesn't protect you from getting hit head-on with a battle canon template and proceeding to fail some saves.

 

Which gets us to the other problem; in this list every unit except the two vindicators is vulnerable to psychic powers, and you don't have any protection against those.

 

Minigun already mentioned the lack of anti-tank. This is easily fixed. Replace the thunderhammer with a powerfist, remove the digital weapons, shuffle some points around, and you'll easily be able to upgrade at least 2 attack bikes into mm attack bikes. These are superior to heavy bolter attack bikes, anyway, as they can insta-kill nobs, most characters, pwn vehicles, and pop easy wounds in monstrous creatures at 24" away.

 

 

 

 

 

Basically, it's a good bike list. I for one would have to think hard to beat it with my regular lists. However, I feel that list opens itself up to some REALLY bad matchups in tournaments. Bad, as in, the list probably wouldn't stand a chance against, say, a lash list, or a psyker chorus spam list.

 

That being said, have you considered replacing the bike captain with khan on bike? I believe that might have a drastic effect on the list. You would lose combat tactics, but would enable your bikes to be pretty much immune to enemy shooting until they entered from outflank.

[Rage]

I've started to use bikes as plain 5 bikes + meltabombs, which comes in at 145pts...if i have some spare points I'll hand out a couple of flamers just in case they need to clear out a small enemy unit.

 

On paper they look rubbish and they are if you try to use them normally. Instead I have added Khan to my lists and used the outflank rule for them to keep them off the board and out of harms ways for a turn or more...hopefully much more. The turboboost will get you to the objective with no issues and you'll get a 3++ save, making you a bit tough to get off the objective easily unless there is some mass firepower (or an assault but then you shouldn't be letting that happen). Though you'd be hoping you're in a situation where the opponents force has been sufficiently weakened and the mass firepower shouldn't be available or trying to deal with other high threat targets. If they come on too early you go and hide them somewhere or keep turboboosting and trying to give them a low profile.

 

An added bonus of this way is that I only need 2 of them for 1500pts and 3 for 1750pts, meaning you get an awful lot of points left over for Termies, Command Squad, MM Attack bikes and anything else big and nasty that you'd wont to take. You can fit in a command squad + Termies/LR with the remaining points (with still more remaining) that'll give 2 high threat durable assault units. I would start these on the board, as if the dice gods hate you then you're in all sorts of trouble, plus they should be across the board by the 2nd turn so they wont have to take to much fire.

 

In killpoints they just serve a roll of tank hunting, assaulting vehicles is such a satisfying way of doing over a transport/tank.

 

At 1750pts there is absolutely no excuse for not having a Librarian in a bike list, personally I go with TermArm/SS, Nullzone and Might of Ancients (for the S6 powerweapon) and stick him in with the Terminators.

[minigun762]

Couple of points here.

 

1) There's a reason that I advocate firebases as a critical part of an army build. You need the ability to reach out and touch someone with some hard hitting firepower.

2) You can substiture fast attack with melta for a firebase in SOME situations.

3) The point of 1 and 2 above (relevant to this part of the discussion at least) is to deny your enemy the ability to sit back an pummel you or advance their transports to where they want them.

 

Other than that, I completely agree with minigun's assessment of this part of the discussion.

 

Welcome back Warp. Good to see that ugly furry ball of death avatar of yours.

[Shen Al'ahn]

Alright, thanks to Giga and Minigun for their input. I've shied away from named characters in the past, but when you mentioned Kor'Sarro Giga (as well as how the list would likly get pounded by some... shall we say... ultra specialized lists) it got me thinking as to how I could revize the list. So here we go:

 

HQ

205pts. Kor’sarro Khan

 

185pts. Librarian: Bike, Avenger, Null Zone, Epistolary

 

Troops

290pts. 7 x Space Marine Bikes + Sergeant (Powerfist); 2 x Flamers, Attack Bike (HB)

 

310pts. 7 x Space Marine Bikes + Sergeant (Powerfist); 2 x Melta, Attack Bike (MM)

 

310pts. 7 x Space Marine Bikes + Sergeant (Powerfist); 2 x Melta, Attack Bike (MM)

 

Fast Attack

140pts. 2 x Land Speeder Tornado; Heavy Flamer, Multi-Melta

 

140pts. 2 x Land Speeder Tornado; Heavy Flamer, Multi-Melta

 

Heavy

85pts. Whirlwind

 

85pts. Whirlwind

 

 

Total Points: 1750pts.

Total Models: 32 + 6 Vehicles

Scoring Units: 3 (6)

Kill Points: 9

 

 

The whole list is predicated on maximizing Kor'Sarro's outflank ability and I'd envision using it as follows: Deploy the whirlwinds behind cover and nothing else. If the enemy goes for the whirlwinds with drop pods or infiltrators or any of their other badness then... yeah team! They've strung their forces out nicely to get hammered by bikes and speeders when they come on via outflanking/reserves. If they stay castled up in their deployment zone for fear of outflanking biker death then... yeah team! My Whirlwinds can now pound away at their army with impunity. The core of the list is just as fast, but packs a lot more fire power at the expense of CC ability and boots on the ground. It also has a Librarian for dealing with various sorts of psyker spam... and nullifying the invulnerable save on Seer Councils of doom, Vulkan and/or Lysander and their legions of TH/SS termies, etc.

 

The one thing I'd say about this list is that it's a real scalpel. There is NO margin for error in its use and a few bad reserve rolls could really ruin your day. Still, when played right, I think it could be very competive.

[terminatorAM]

i have been watching this topic with great interest for awhile now and have found it very helpful, but the one thing i have yet to see is the dual raider lists that seem to be popular in several places including my local hobby shop. Is the point sink and limited variability simply a no go to everyone on this forum or has the topic simply not come up yet?

[minigun762]

i have been watching this topic with great interest for awhile now and have found it very helpful, but the one thing i have yet to see is the dual raider lists that seem to be popular in several places including my local hobby shop. Is the point sink and limited variability simply a no go to everyone on this forum or has the topic simply not come up yet?

 

It depends, mostly the point level.

 

In my eyes, dual Raider lists are stronger in small games for the same reason that 'Zilla lists are, there is less overall anti-big thing firepower to kill them.

In a 2k game, you're likely to run up against someone who (should be) packing enough anti-tank to kill your Raiders with some degree of reliablity.

 

The other issue is, what to put inside them. Chaos has the advantage here where we can put cheaper, scoring units in our Raiders. Of course our Raiders are crappier then Codex Marines but thats part of the game right?

 

The most useful units for Codex Marines to shove into a Raider are Assault Terminators. Of course this unit is now 400-600 points depending on if you attach an HQ to it and in a small game, that doesn't leave much room for scoring units.

 

So in a dual Raider list, you're always trying to balance the shock value of your Raiders with enough depth in the list to play if you lose a Raider or two early. As the point level goes up, you also need to start stocking up on other pieces of armor to further spread out their anti-tank weapons. More Raiders is an obvious choice but Vindicators, Predators and Dreadnoughts all work well. I wouldn't rely on Speeders or Rhinos because a smart player will direct S5-7 shots against those and S8+ shots against the big things so you really need your armor to be AV12 atleast.

[Rage]

Alright, thanks to Giga and Minigun for their input. I've shied away from named characters in the past, but when you mentioned Kor'Sarro Giga (as well as how the list would likly get pounded by some... shall we say... ultra specialized lists) it got me thinking as to how I could revize the list. So here we go:

 

HQ

205pts. Kor’sarro Khan

 

185pts. Librarian: Bike, Avenger, Null Zone, Epistolary

 

Troops

290pts. 7 x Space Marine Bikes + Sergeant (Powerfist); 2 x Flamers, Attack Bike (HB)

 

310pts. 7 x Space Marine Bikes + Sergeant (Powerfist); 2 x Melta, Attack Bike (MM)

 

310pts. 7 x Space Marine Bikes + Sergeant (Powerfist); 2 x Melta, Attack Bike (MM)

 

Fast Attack

140pts. 2 x Land Speeder Tornado; Heavy Flamer, Multi-Melta

 

140pts. 2 x Land Speeder Tornado; Heavy Flamer, Multi-Melta

 

Heavy

85pts. Whirlwind

 

85pts. Whirlwind

 

 

Total Points: 1750pts.

Total Models: 32 + 6 Vehicles

Scoring Units: 3 (6)

Kill Points: 9

 

 

The whole list is predicated on maximizing Kor'Sarro's outflank ability and I'd envision using it as follows: Deploy the whirlwinds behind cover and nothing else. If the enemy goes for the whirlwinds with drop pods or infiltrators or any of their other badness then... yeah team! They've strung their forces out nicely to get hammered by bikes and speeders when they come on via outflanking/reserves. If they stay castled up in their deployment zone for fear of outflanking biker death then... yeah team! My Whirlwinds can now pound away at their army with impunity. The core of the list is just as fast, but packs a lot more fire power at the expense of CC ability and boots on the ground. It also has a Librarian for dealing with various sorts of psyker spam... and nullifying the invulnerable save on Seer Councils of doom, Vulkan and/or Lysander and their legions of TH/SS termies, etc.

 

The one thing I'd say about this list is that it's a real scalpel. There is NO margin for error in its use and a few bad reserve rolls could really ruin your day. Still, when played right, I think it could be very competive.

 

A couple of problems:

 

1. The Landspeeders can't flank, they don't have combat tactics, scout or infiltrate....unless you were thinking of deepstriking them!? Brave move!

 

There is NO margin for error in its use and a few bad reserve rolls could really ruin your day

 

2. You are totally reliant on your reserve rolls...I've been there, done that and taken it rather firmly in an uncomfortable place...unless you're lucky you will turn up piece meal, making it easy for the opponent to pick off each unit as it arrives....or on the wrong side of the board.

 

3. The Librarian is a bit of a quandry here, you have to hope he turns up early to be able to counter all the issues that a bike army has with Lash, else you'll find those units arriving on the board lashed before the librarian can do a thing about it.

 

In this type of force, where you aren't looking at being a CC powerhouse you should be probably keeping all your units on the table...with the possible exception of 1 for objective grabs or backline harrassment. Bike armies are small enough as is they don't need to be split up on purpose. You've spent all those points on mobile firepower you should be using it from T1 onwards, plus you have more than enough troops to survive a game unless it all goes horribly wrong!

 

Khan as I'm seeing him gives you one really strong option and that is hiding your troops and giving them longevity for capturing the objectives. Putting expensive units in outflank is a waste as you'll never be sure when they'll turn up and especially if they'll achieve much when they do e.g. they turn up on turn 4 and kill one tank! The only kill unit that I can think of that would benefit from outflank is Vanguard with the added bonus of Khan being attached to them (he can run), they have more chance of assaulting the turn they arrive and they don't have to suffer so much shooting as they do getting across the board. Also by not really having any assault unit you're wasting Furious Charge and H&R...

 

It's not a bad list I just think that outflank would do more harm than good

[Shen Al'ahn]

@ Rage; Oh well... liked the first list better anyway! :)

[brother carc]

Can't you keep the first list and simply halve the size of one of the bike units in order to fit in the librarian.

 

The main reason you need him is for his hood so just keep him bog-standard on a bike for 135 points with avenger and nullzone.

 

I prefer the vindies to the whirlwinds cause they have the fear factor and offer something against nobz and the upcoming tryanid warriors who apparently have 3 wounds apiece but are no longer immune to instant death

[Shen Al'ahn]

Actually, as a lot of Tournies are 1850pts. I'd just drop the HB attack bike on the flamer bike squad and add the Librarian to the army outright if I had my druthers. But I could modify it to the following with relative ease:

 

HQ

190pts. Captain: Relic Blade, Artificer Armor, Bike, Digital Weapons

 

140pts. Librarian: Bike, Avenger, Null Zone, Melta Bombs

 

Troops

290pts. 7 x Space Marine Bikes + Sergeant (Powerfist); 2 x Flamers, Attack Bike (HB)

 

310pts. 7 x Space Marine Bikes + Sergeant (Powerfist); 2 x Melta, Attack Bike (MM)

 

310pts. 7 x Space Marine Bikes + Sergeant (Powerfist); 2 x Melta, Attack Bike (MM)

 

Fast Attack

140pts. 2 x Land Speeder Tornado; Heavy Flamer, Multi-Melta

 

140pts. 2 x Land Speeder Tornado; Heavy Flamer, Multi-Melta

 

Heavy

115pts. Vindicator

 

115pts. Vindicator

 

 

Total Points: 1750pts.

Total Models: 32 + 6 Vehicles

Scoring Units: 3 (6)

Kill Points: 9

[minigun762]

You could do the same list but replace the 4 Land Speeder Tornados with 3 Typhoons. I'm not sure which would be better, you're trading raw firepower for a significant range boost. Considering you have 2 Vindicators and the MM Attack Bikes for killing Land Raiders, I think the added range might be worth it.

 

EDIT: I can't spell apparently...

[Shen Al'ahn]

This is probably one of those situations where you do a lot of playtesting with proxy models and see which loadout works better for you personally.

[Giga]

i have been watching this topic with great interest for awhile now and have found it very helpful, but the one thing i have yet to see is the dual raider lists that seem to be popular in several places including my local hobby shop. Is the point sink and limited variability simply a no go to everyone on this forum or has the topic simply not come up yet?

Minigun already said most of what I think. Vanilla marines just don't have strong killy troops (tactical squads are a support unit), so putting them in a land raider is no good. In 1500 pts, two raiders eat up too many points and you don't have anything cool to put in them, and in 1750-2000 there's A LOT more anti-tank on the table and while rolling two raiders each with two units of th/ss termies might be effective against some armies, there are more then enough lists out there that are capable of destroying a couple of LRs.

 

However, Space Wolves and Chaos Marines got it much better. CSM have zerkers and plague marines, both of which are great units to put inside a LR, and SW can fill their LRs up with gray hunters or even wolf guard troops (if you're running Grimnar).

 

An example would be a LR with 9 zerkers with powerfist and a chaos lord/sorcerer. Another example would be 8 GH with powerfist and meltagun/flamer + wolf guard sergeant with a powerfist + a cheap awesome runepriest or wolf priest.

 

Having two of either of these units in LRs is a huge threat to most opponents, and rather viable I'd say. Even if you don't want to charge the enemy, you can always use those troops in LRs as a big 14 14 14 scoring bunker.

 

That being said, on the whole, I think dual LRs are too much eggs-in-one-basket to be a truly competitive build.

This is probably one of those situations where you do a lot of playtesting with proxy models and see which loadout works better for you personally.

I agree with this 100%. Playtesting is the way to go.

 

Basically, I like the list with typhoons and standard captain the most. After all, you can always keep a combat squadded bike squad or two hidden in reserves, so they can come in later in the game to grab objectives.

 

One thing I would change is giving the librarian vortex of doom instead of avenger. You don't need him to be an epistolary, either, so it's good you changed that. Vortex of doom is dangerous as it can kill your own libby if you fail that leadership test, but a str 10 ap 1 pieplate on a relentless platform allows you to destroy anything from 24" away. You aren't gonna have all that much use of that libby when you fight non-psyker armies, anyway, so why not make him super-deadly and capable of destroying pretty much anything?

 

This is going to be even cooler when the new nids come without their eternal warrior. A vortex of doom could potentially kill 3-4 warriors with a single shot, not to mention insta-death those harpy thingies. <_<

[Iron_Chaos_Brute]

i have been watching this topic with great interest for awhile now and have found it very helpful, but the one thing i have yet to see is the dual raider lists that seem to be popular in several places including my local hobby shop. Is the point sink and limited variability simply a no go to everyone on this forum or has the topic simply not come up yet?

Well, CSM do Raider Rush better. I wouldn't run it out of C:SM. No scoring assault units and less killy HQs mean a weaker list.

[minigun762]

Well, CSM do Raider Rush better. I wouldn't run it out of C:SM. No scoring assault units and less killy HQs mean a weaker list.

 

I don't know if its weaker, its just different. You have to put Terminators into those Land Raiders. However your typical Terminator squad is cheaper then a Berserker or PM squad and the Land Raider itself is alot better.

 

The key will be spending your leftover points on troops to claim objectives and hope that the opponent is busy with the Land Raiders. Something like this I think:

 

Chaplain

 

4 TH/SS + 1 LC Terminator x 2

 

Tactical Squad, Rhino, Flamer, Multi-Melta x 2

6 Scouts, 5 Snipers, 1 HB

 

Land Raider

Land Raider Redeemer

[Grey Mage]

See, and for that list Id actually run:

 

Libbie- Gate, Avenger- 100pts

 

5 Scouts- Powerfist- 100pts.

5 Scouts- Powerfist- 100pts.

10 Tacticals- Flamer+ML- 170pts.

 

5 Assault TDA- 3 TH+SS, 2 2xLC-200pts.

5 Assault TDA- 3 TH+SS, 2 2xLC-200pts.

 

Landspeeder Storm- Heavy Flamer- 60pts.

Landspeeder Storm- Heavy Flamer- 60pts.

 

Landraider- 250pts.

Landraider Crusader- MM- 260pts.

 

1500pts.

 

Problem is its light on antitank, the Scouts help *first turn assault on anything but a landraider or a monlith should disable the thing* but its risky. The libby can gate around the tactical squad, who rapid fires and flamers, and then gates away again... more of an annoyance unit, but with three very fast scoring units and a pair of "hammers" you should have enough going on to get alot of enemies a bit confused as to whats happening.

 

Biggest problem? Infantry Heavy IG.... like the tankless kind.

[minigun762]

Biggest problem? Infantry Heavy IG.... like the tankless kind.

 

Yeah, that would be a pain. Terminators are overkill and the weapons of the standard Land Raider aren't that useful.

 

This is part of the reason that taking 1 Crusader or Redeemer is a smart move.

[Brother Captain Josef]

When It comes to Vanilla Land Raiders I personally cannot justify one unless I'm fielding AssTerms. A prospect that is only feasible in 1.5k upward games IMO.

 

If you have nothing nasty to stick in your Raider you are better off taking 2 x combi preds for 240pts - or a selection of other troops if you just can't get away with the immobility of said weapon platforms.

 

On another note, the single most effective upgrade for any Tac squad I have (other than a Rhino) has got to be my sergeant's powerfists. I have never regretted that 25pts... ever. My first tac squad sergeant has seen off rampaging carnifexes and Hive Tyrants, Insta gibbed Chaos Lords, dreads and all manner of troops and griblies.