Creating a tourney All-Comers list with Vanilla Dex

[Rage]

@ Shen: Sorry if I sounded harsh, though you'll laugh when you see my current list. This is what I'm currently running at 1500pts...

 

Kor'Sarro Khan

+Moondrakken

 

Command Squad

+Bikes

+Company Champion

+Vet w/ Thunderhammer

+Vet w/ Storm Shield

 

5 Terminator Assault Squad

+4 TH/SS

+1 LC

 

1 Land Raider

+Multi-Melta

 

5 Bike Squad

+Melta Bombs

 

5 Bike Squad

+Melta Bombs

 

2 MM Attack Bikes

 

1 LS Typhoon

 

1 LS Typhoon

 

Obviously the 2 bike squads hide off the table in outflank, everything else is set up on the table...if there are drop pods full of melta then I'll set up a ring around the LR to stop them getting within optimal melta range on the 1st turn.

 

Ideally in objective missions they will go first, then the bike squads have at least 2 turns without being able to be shot at. Then bomb onto the board and either grab objectives or go assault a tank (in kill point games).

 

Basically I have got 2 scary kill units that can move quickly and are very durable so will take alot to kill them and they can dish out a lot of pain in return. I'm toying with the idea of replacing the LR+Termies with another command squad and captain though that will reduce my flexibility and turn it into a full-on assault list. There is also the thought of replacing them with Sternguard mini-dev squads and turning it into a gunline army which I quite like the idea of.

 

Sternguard list:

 

Kor'Sarro Khan

+Moondrakken

 

Command Squad

+Bikes

+Company Champion

+Vet w/ Thunderhammer

+Vet w/ Storm Shield

 

5 Sternguard

+ML

+ML

 

5 Sternguard

+ML

+ML

 

5 Sternguard

+ML

+ML

 

5 Bike Squad

+Melta Bombs

 

5 Bike Squad

+Melta Bombs

 

3 MM Attack Bikes

 

1 LS Typhoon

 

1 LS Typhoon

 

Eat Missile Launcher Spam!!!!!

[Shen Al'ahn]

No worries Rage. :o Your list is pretty cool too, not the sorta thing I'd run, but that's more of a personal preference thing. I like to have a few more models on the field on account of the statistically improbable number of armor saves I mangage to fail. I think I'm one of a handful people who can take three wounds on a squad of terminators and expect to lose at least two of them!

[Rage]

Oh yeah, I can make 5+ saves all day without an issue but give me a 2+ save and I may as well take them straight off the board without rolling....on the other hand rolling 3 6's in a row to destroy a tank happens a stupid number of times!

[minigun762]

On another note, the single most effective upgrade for any Tac squad I have (other than a Rhino) has got to be my sergeant's powerfists. I have never regretted that 25pts... ever. My first tac squad sergeant has seen off rampaging carnifexes and Hive Tyrants, Insta gibbed Chaos Lords, dreads and all manner of troops and griblies.

 

The Powerfist is a great buy, especially since you're already paying the points to have a Sarge in the squad.

I don't believe its a mandatory upgrade though and here is why.

 

Some Tactical squad can be built and played as fire support teams. Give them a decent Heavy Weapon backed up by a Plasmagun and possibly Razorback and you have a nice firebase. I wouldn't include a Power Fist in these squad for 2 reasons.

1) You're already paying extra points into the squad. Chances are you bought a Lascannon or Plasma Cannon, so that costs you. Plus the Plasmagun and Razorback and the squad is 20+ points more expensive then a standard unit. A Power Fist is doubling that investment.

2) The squad doesn't have a great means of deploying that Power Fist. There is a good chance that you're combat squadding the unit and even if you don't, you're not moving all 10 guys in the Razorback. To make a Power Fist work, it needs time and you're buying time with your fellow Marines. Going through 4 guys is alot quicker then 9 guys so you really want a full sized squad.

 

I think Codex Marines could go well if they used a 1:1 ratio of Rhino/Razorback squads. I know that is what I'd do.

[Warp Angel]

On another note, the single most effective upgrade for any Tac squad I have (other than a Rhino) has got to be my sergeant's powerfists. I have never regretted that 25pts... ever. My first tac squad sergeant has seen off rampaging carnifexes and Hive Tyrants, Insta gibbed Chaos Lords, dreads and all manner of troops and griblies.

 

The Powerfist is a great buy, especially since you're already paying the points to have a Sarge in the squad.

I don't believe its a mandatory upgrade though and here is why.

 

Some Tactical squad can be built and played as fire support teams. Give them a decent Heavy Weapon backed up by a Plasmagun and possibly Razorback and you have a nice firebase. I wouldn't include a Power Fist in these squad for 2 reasons.

1) You're already paying extra points into the squad. Chances are you bought a Lascannon or Plasma Cannon, so that costs you. Plus the Plasmagun and Razorback and the squad is 20+ points more expensive then a standard unit. A Power Fist is doubling that investment.

2) The squad doesn't have a great means of deploying that Power Fist. There is a good chance that you're combat squadding the unit and even if you don't, you're not moving all 10 guys in the Razorback. To make a Power Fist work, it needs time and you're buying time with your fellow Marines. Going through 4 guys is alot quicker then 9 guys so you really want a full sized squad.

 

I think Codex Marines could go well if they used a 1:1 ratio of Rhino/Razorback squads. I know that is what I'd do.

 

I'd beg to differ on the whole Powerfist issue. At a minimum you need a power weapon. Tactical squads are already mediocre to poor in hand to hand. Power weapons of any sort dramatically increase the total number of casualties that the squad can inflict, which is important if you're hoping to use them to hold an objective against an enemy remnant squad. Even your "firebase" or "defender" tacticals benefit greatly from having something that ignores armor saves. When you actually start stacking up points, it takes two powerfists to buy an attack bike or base speeder, and more to get you a combat squad of marines. Except in the smallest points games, it's worth finding space to upgrade your sergeant to keep the units "Situational" advantages as high as possible with a minimum cost.

 

If you're playing CSM or SW, you're almost always better in hand to hand and benefit less than your loyalist equivalent. Tactical squads need the help.

[minigun762]

I'd beg to differ on the whole Powerfist issue. At a minimum you need a power weapon. Tactical squads are already mediocre to poor in hand to hand. Power weapons of any sort dramatically increase the total number of casualties that the squad can inflict, which is important if you're hoping to use them to hold an objective against an enemy remnant squad.

 

I could see that point and realistically I think its a fairly cheap upgrade for most Tactical squads, again because you're already paying 1/2 the points up front with a mandatory Vet Sarge.

 

But if I just had to trim some points to fit in another Speeder or another tank, I wouldn't feel too bad about removing the CC weapons from firebase squads.

[mowglie]

I'm seeing a lot of 1-hammer lists with assault terminator + LR/LRC at 1,500-1,750 points.

 

This is the kind of thing that the OP is trying to avoid.

 

I usually play at 1,500 points, and I don't see the value in assault terminators + landraider at this points value. As the OP notes, 460+ points for assault terminators + a land raider is a huge investment for a non-scoring unit that doesn't really mesh with the rest of your force. Even in 1500 points, a lone land raider is likely to get immobilised (especially if your opponent knows that you've got an assault terminator squad in there he can disable). Basically losing a third of your army to a stray antitank shot hurts.

 

The assault terminators are excellent at wiping out your opponent's hammer-units, but aren't very good at all at advancing your own plan. They don't score, they don't shoot (and let's face it, in 99% of lists you want to be shooting rather than assaulting), they don't really work with the rest of your force.

 

Why so little love for the sternguard?

 

My math-hammer says that point-for-point they're not terribly less survivable than terminators (terminators take about 20% more small arms fire to kill, sternguard are actually *more* survivable point-for-point against e.g. lascannons, although obviously terminators are massively better against anything with exactly AP3).

 

On the flipside, point-for-point, from almost anywhere on the table, against almost any target, the sternguard are the killiest unit your money can buy. You can even cover their weaknesses (armour) with combi-weapons (many combi-meltas make tanks cry).

 

I think they're "too good", and that's even before you make them scoring with Kantor.

 

@OP: You suggest 1x Sternguard squad, 1x Assault Terminator squad. Any reason why you don't choose two (or even three) sternguard squads instead?

 

Example:-

 

1500 points:

 

175 - Counts-as Kantor

 

090 - Scout Squad (5 models, Combi-melta, Meltabombs)

090 - Scout Squad (5 models, Combi-melta, Meltabombs)

 

310 - Sternguard (10 models, 5 Combi-meltas, Rhino)

190 - Sternguard (5 models, 5 Combi-meltas, Razorback)

170 - Sternguard Squad (5 models, 2 Plasma Cannons, Rhino)

 

065 - Land Speeder Storm (Multi-melta)

065 - Land Speeder Storm (Multi-melta)

 

115 - Vindicator

115 - Vindicator

115 - Vindicator

 

Ignore the vindicators for now (they're there because I don't have to think about them, so I can concentrate on the sternguard).

 

This list has up to six scoring units, two of which can move 24" per turn and have good antitank, the other four of which can be counted as "hammer" units in their own right.

 

The scouts engage or destroy enemy antitank (they're particularly good at tarpitting broadsides, swap the melta for powerfists if you see a lot of them) to protect your transports.

 

Obviously you don't want to get caught in assault (though Kantor helps a bit), but that applies to any gunline. Your excellent mech should help a lot. Disembark, fire 30 sternguard shots (plus four storm bolter shots). mount up next turn and do it again.

 

The sternguard are fantastically killy. Only weakness, I think, is a lack of "proper" anti-horde. There's not much of it in the meta here, but then you've got 345 points of vindicator sitting there asking to be replaced with Whirlwinds and/or a couple of MM/HF speeders.

 

What do you think? Good way to counter complaints that we don't have good hammer units as troops?

 

I really want to try ten of them in a LRC with Lysander. 20 AP3 shots rerolling misses (nullifying "gets hot"?) sounds pretty nasty against a lot of things in the meta right now.

[Giga]

That list looks like a lot of fun. ;)

 

It has a few problems though, the main being as you said the lack of anti-horde. A bunch of cheap units (such as ork boyz) hugging cover are gonna be a large problem to deal with. Probably the same can be said about the upcoming nids.

 

The other problem is anti-tank. The list has tons of short range anti-tank (very short range, combimeltas need to be within 6" to get their full potential), but not a single good long-range anti-tank. Them vindicators have an effective range of 30", but statistically those pieplates are going to be scattering 3", which pretty much means they'll be hitting vehicles at half strength. Only two multimeltas (on open topped 10 10 10 platforms no less) also mean you won't have much luck busting heavy mech lists such as IG and the like (at least not before they get a chance to hurt you). As Warp Angel would put it, you lack a firebase.

 

Vindicators may or may not be a good idea here, depending on your luck with the scatter dice. The thing is, sternguard work best in the 12" range. So they'll ideally be standing quite close to the enemy. Throwing a bunch of S10 AP2 pieplates close to your expensive sternguard squads is bound to end in self-inflicted disaster at least some of the time.

 

I know you said I should ignore the vindicators, but hey, gotha discuss the list as it is.

 

 

 

 

I believe th/ss termies+LR actually are extremely useful in the vast majority of vanilla lists. The problem is that people don't take another hammer unit (usually not balancing their force properly to begin with), which usually ends in eggs-in-basket syndrome.

[minigun762]

I believe th/ss termies+LR actually are extremely useful in the vast majority of vanilla lists. The problem is that people don't take another hammer unit (usually not balancing their force properly to begin with), which usually ends in eggs-in-basket syndrome.

 

And as we've discussed before, I feel that if you take another (expensive) hammer unit, you don't have enough points leftover for the support and scoring options.

 

Lets face it, TH/SS Terminators are the trump card that Codex Marines can toss onto the table. In the same way as Nob Bikers are great against almost everything, there are few targets outside of IG horde armies that the Terminators aren't a valid counter for. We know they are good but I feel that the question becomes are they mandatory? I say no, certainly not in anything less then a 1.5k game and are probably better used in 2k games.

 

The reason is simple, its a minimum of 440 points (5 Terminators + LRR). Not even addressing the HQ choice that will get added to it, thats alot of points that could be used elsewhere.

 

 

However going back to the original point of of this thread, I feel like we're seeing 3 general types of Codex armies being presented.

1) TH/SS/Raider with support (I say that the Terminators define the list since they use up 1/3 of the points in a 1.5k game)

2) Firepower lists (lots of long range dakka, RifleDreads, Typhoons, Predators etc)

3) Mobility lists (using Biker lists but can also be mechanized or a combination)

[mowglie]

That list looks like a lot of fun. ;)

 

Thanks, I think it is :o

 

It has a few problems though, the main being as you said the lack of anti-horde. A bunch of cheap units (such as ork boyz) hugging cover are gonna be a large problem to deal with. Probably the same can be said about the upcoming nids.

 

I've not played anyone playing *really* serious horde armies. My understanding is that that's the meta right now, but it might just be a local thing. I'd look to deal with e.g. the tervigon horde list by tank shocking my way to the MCs and unloading 20 bolter rounds at 2+ to wound.

 

You *can* tech up sternguard to be excellent anti-horde (combi-flamers) and they're no slouches to begin with due to being able to fire AP5 ignores cover shots, but I agree, because they want to be within 12" they're only going to get one round of firing, and the horde codexes can put an awful lot of models on the table.

 

Let's assume you replace the vindicators with 350 points of anti-horde (whirlwinds and/or MM/HF speeders). There might be a better option, I'll think about it more.

 

The other problem is anti-tank... As Warp Angel would put it, you lack a firebase.

 

On the one hand, I'm happy to bow to more experienced players. On the other hand, all the long range antitank we have is very unreliable. If you'll pardon the math-hammer:-

 

 

Let's imagine we want to pop an AV13 target. For the sake of making the maths easy, let's imagine it's a Vindicator and anything 3+ on the damage table "will do" (since in hypothetical-land we can hide from an immobilised vindicator):-

 

A landraider costs 250 points and fires two 2L lascannons with a threat bubble of 54" (6" move for LoS):-

 

2 2L shots => 16/9 hits => 16/54 glancing hits + 32/54 penetrating hits => 16/162 successes from glancing hits + 64/162 successes from penetrating hits

= 0.494 enemy vindicators disabled.

 

That's 1.98 enemy vindicators disabled per shooting phase per 1000 points spent on land raiders.

 

A tri-las pred costs 165 points and fires two lascannons plus one 2l lascannon with a threat bubble of 48" (it must have its target in LoS at the start of the turn, otherwise it can only fire the 2L):-

 

2 shots + 1 TL shot => 4/3 + 8/9 = 20/9 hits => 20/54 glancing hits + 40/54 penetrating hits => 20/162 successes from glancing hits + 80/162 successes from penetrating hits

= 0.617 enemy vindicators disabled.

 

That's 3.74 enemy vindicators disabled per shooting phase per 1000 points spent on tri-las predators, assuming they're in LoS at the start of the turn.

 

A Multi-melta Attack Bike costs 50 points and fires one Multi-melta with a threat bubble of 24"

 

1 shot => 2/3 hits => 8/108 glancing hits + 52/108 penetrating hits => 8/216 successes from glancing hits + 260/648 successes from penetrating hits

= 0.438 enemy vindicators disabled.

 

That's 8.77 enemy vindicators disabled per shooting phase per 1000 points spent on Multi-melta attack bikes

 

 

Skip to the conclusion: Point-for-point, close range anti-tank (i.e. melta) is 2-5x more effective than long-range options (i.e. lascannons). Having to start my turn within 24" instead of 54" seems like a small price to pay.

 

That's not even counting shots from 36" (and because of AP1, Multi-meltas aren't at all bad even against AV13 from their full range), the increased survivability from the higher model count (Sure, a land raider is more survivable than a MM attack bike or a MM/HF landspeeder, but it's not imo more survivable than five MM attack bikes, or three-and-a-half-ish MM/HF landspeeders), or the increased chance that a faster platform will be able to target side or rear armour. Now, judging by the melta in your original list, you obviously already know this, but spending 450 points to have a counterassault unit and a couple of sniping lascannons doesn't leave a good taste in my mouth.

 

Because of the ordinance rules, vindicators are pretty good at anti-tank as well (1/3 chance for a direct hit, slightly less than ~50% chance of scattering and still landing with the hole on top of the target tank, roll in the probability of still getting a glance/pen with a half-strength hit due to hitting the rear armour with the ordinance rules and I'll call that roughly a 2/3 chance to hit at full strength). Obviously you're right that I might end up scattering on top of my troops in rapid-fire range though. Maybe Vindicators aren't the best plan :) Like I say though, they're there because I didn't have to think about them (and they're fluffy for my chapter). As I said above, replace them with anti-horde if the meta demands it.

 

I understand what you mean by a "firebase", however I think that particularly given the poor reliability point-for-point compared to closer-range options, I prefer to have something that gets its threat bubble from moving in the movement phase rather than from having a long range in the shooting phase. I find that in practise, a MM attack bike, or a MM/HF speeder (or in my example, some scouts on a LSS) have at least as much reach (if not more) than a land raider or tri-las-pred sitting in my deployment zone. Also, as you've noted, the majority of my army wants to be up in rapid-fire range. This dilutes the advantage of long-range firepower as my opponent will have nearby targets for his fire regardless.

 

I suspect you're underestimating the damage that a LSS with a load of scouts can do to a tank. 24" scout move, 12" move, 2" disembark gets your MM within 12" and your combi-melta within 6". LSS fires its MM, Scout Sergeant fires his Combi-melta, assaults and uses Meltabombs (and Krak grenades, though they're hardly worth mentioning). That's a very dead tank (around 95% assuming I can hit the side or rear armour). My units have already made their points back (more or less) and now you've got not one but two units in your deployment zone that have to die right now or they'll do it again. It's not *so* hot in KP games since I've just given up 2KP (and it's definitely the correct play to kill my LSS and Scouts) for one of yours, but now against a typical list I've ~halved your anti-tank which makes the rest of my army harder to deal with. Against the list you gave on page 1, one LSS+Scouts tries to take down your Land Raider (83% chance of immob/wreck/explode), the other scouts disembark and assault your attack bikes (shooting probably causes 1 wound, then they assault probably causing and recieving about 1 wound, but more importantly locking your remaining bike in combat where it can't shoot my tanks) while the skimmer takes a potshot at something else and probably misses. At 1,500 points, one LR and a couple of MM attack bikes is a pretty typical anti-tank loadout. After my first turn, my opponent is left with nothing but the heavies in his tacsquads, plus whatever was in his LR (which is now footslogging and spending a turn or two dealing with my scouts) to take out my armour.

 

I believe th/ss termies+LR actually are extremely useful in the vast majority of vanilla lists. The problem is that people don't take another hammer unit (usually not balancing their force properly to begin with), which usually ends in eggs-in-basket syndrome.

 

The main point of my post was to ask you and/or everyone else: "Have you tried using, say, two full units of sternguard as your two 'hammer' units?"

 

On a related note, what do you find TH/SS terminators useful for that nothing else in the list can do for cheaper?

 

I just find that 450 nonscoring points a bit too much of an investment at 1500, I think!

[mowglie]

And as we've discussed before, I feel that if you take another (expensive) hammer unit, you don't have enough points leftover for the support and scoring options.

 

*nods* hence why I'm suggesting using ~20 sternguard instead of your two hammer units. Like TH/SS terminators, they're a reliable counter for almost anything your opponent can put on the table. Unlike terminators, they can be scoring (with Kantor, and can combat squad if you play two 10s), fully tooled-up with a rhino they're about 100 points cheaper. Because there are more of them, they're only 20% or so less resilient point-for-point against small arms (and point-for-point they're better at absorbing Plasma or better, although obviously they're much, much worse vs Krak).

 

Would it be useful to have some maths on point-for-point killiness comparing sternguard and TH/SS terminators? If so, against what targets?

[spartan249]

So what happens when you face an army that relies not on one hammer unit but an actual army? Your little trick, which depends on you going first AND the opponent actually deploying anything juicy, gets rid of one, maybe two targets. Wiping a land raider is a huge gain from a cheap speeder and scouts. Wrecking a dakka pred or a HB razorback or 1 leman russ or 1 carnifex out of a dozen similar targets has a much smaller impact on the operation of the army.

 

Meltas are great, but that does not mean lascannons are completely worthless. Why? You open up tactical options with a lascannon. The Melta weapon operates on a very short leash, with a very one-track method of delivering the weapon system. Lascannons, on the other hand, have a great range, which allows you to operate at a wide number of ranges with less risk to the firer. The melta requires you to be point blank, a range that virtually guarantees destruction when faced with any standard fighting formation. A lascannon, while less effective, can work to break formations and incite disorder in battle by forcing opponents to give chase to the weapons firing on them. Part of the lascannon's cost comes from the tactical flexibility they grant. Melta works through singular but brutal power. Both have their places in an army, and deciding to not use a weapon system simply because you don't like it leads to you becoming close minded, thus strategically inflexible.

[minigun762]

And as we've discussed before, I feel that if you take another (expensive) hammer unit, you don't have enough points leftover for the support and scoring options.

 

*nods* hence why I'm suggesting using ~20 sternguard instead of your two hammer units. Like TH/SS terminators, they're a reliable counter for almost anything your opponent can put on the table. Unlike terminators, they can be scoring (with Kantor, and can combat squad if you play two 10s), fully tooled-up with a rhino they're about 100 points cheaper. Because there are more of them, they're only 20% or so less resilient point-for-point against small arms (and point-for-point they're better at absorbing Plasma or better, although obviously they're much, much worse vs Krak).

 

Would it be useful to have some maths on point-for-point killiness comparing sternguard and TH/SS terminators? If so, against what targets?

 

My initial feeling about your post was that its apple to oranges however I stopped and thought "what do we really NEED TH/SS Terminators against?"

The answer I came up with is MCs, heavy Walkers (AV13) and assault specialists (Berserkers, Nobz etc).

The reason for this is S8 is enough to wound most anything on 2's and insta-kill alot of units and a 3++ Inv save is enough to weather those AP attacks before you can strike back.

 

However Sternguard have other tools that accomplish similar goals.

Hellfire round will wound anything on 2's as well. Now you will get your armor save in most situations BUT you can also shoot much more and at the equivalent of I10 so weight of firepower might make it even in most situations.

A Power Fist backed up by some Combi-Melta will usually be enough for most heavy walkers, the TH/SS have the advantage in durability here but walkers are also the least concern of the 3 I mentioned.

Again your special ammo will help you against assault specialists and the combination of 2 attacks (3 with Pedro) and a Power Fist means you won't be helpless against them. The big advantage is being able to dakka them down for a turn prior to their assault.

[spartan249]

I use both sternguard and TH/SS terminators in my current RG incarnation, so I suppose I have the best of both worlds >.>

[chance]

Even as a long time lurker I felt this thread was so good (Nice one Giga) I had to post. I think the thread has done a great job of laying out the strengths of the SM dex and weaknesses compared to the others (even other Power Armour).

 

The list I have laid out below is hypothetical based on; the comments of the all posters on the thread, experience and mathshammer. It is a departure from the normal SM template lists and perhaps breaks some of the list building ideas we all work to. I suspect that’s what Giga had in mind for this thread to take a list apart and start discussion.

 

The Water Style Gunline

 

The list acknowledges SM Tac troop weaknesses and attempts to attempt to offset them with concentrated support fire. The list attempts to hit at range initially taking out transports, as enemy moves forward the list engages them and then moves with them keeping them in range – as per the water style. Most of all the shooting is deliberately used to create a synergy with the melee units. You’ll see the Troops FOC has been deliberately stood on its head. Three 5 man Tac squads; 15 SM, not a PF in sight.

 

The point here is what does the normal Tac Squad do. It’s a generalist that is forced to take objectives against the enemy’s elite. Even worse, Chaos,SW, Orks and Nids can now field troops that are significantly stronger than the Tac squad, and are almost elite in their own right. The Tac squad is now comparatively weaker than ever.

 

The point of this list is not to maximise units (TH/SS Termis, Comd Squad, Sternguard etc) but to maximise the synergy with every unit on the table. Hopefully by offsetting weakness, consolidating strength, making the sum greater than the parts.

 

1500pts

HQ

Capt + TH + PP - 145

Capt + PF + Combi-flamer – 135

 

Elites

Dread + Tl AutoCan - 115

 

Troops

Tac Squad (5) + Rhino - 125

Tac Squad (5) + Combi-flamer + Razor - 140

Tac Squad (5) + Razor - 130

 

Fast Attack

2 x Typhoon - 180

2 x Typhoon - 180

2 x Land Speeder (Multimelta) – 120

 

Heavy Support

Vindicator - 115

Vindicator - 115

 

Tactics

 

Capts either run separately in Razors with squads, with the final squad held in reserve (they want to be as late as possible. Or depending on army facing, 2 Capts run in the rhino (8 Str 8 attacks on charge with 6W and 4++ Sv), the 2 Tac squads in reserve, depending on opposition the Razor comes out to use HB and tank shock (leaving troops in reserve).

 

Land Speeders up front, threatening 24” multmelta range, Vindicators and Dread mid field picking shots. Typhoons in back picking shots over tanks in high priority targets (transports). Enemy comes into range, force starts kiting back dropping 2xStr10 large blasts and 8xStr8 small blasts and numerous Str5-7 shots. Troops+HQ moving to objectives from Turn 4 to mop up survivors.

 

Absolutely no camping on objectives, Transports initial target priority, plan to yield space to superior HTH units then force break tests with shooting then reclaim ground. Striking out to 48”, dominating at 24” and then holding that distance as long as possible. Need enemy infantry on foot as long as possible.

 

It mathshammers pretty strong against Vehicles, MEQ, Monstrous Creatures, Elite HTH units, Bikes/Council. Fully Mech so no Lash effect. Concerned about IG gunline and psychic attacks. Very concerned over Horde

 

See what you think, (Giga I hope it was this type of craziness you were looking for.

[mowglie]

My initial feeling about your post was that its apple to oranges however I stopped and thought "what do we really NEED TH/SS Terminators against?"

The answer I came up with is MCs, heavy Walkers (AV13) and assault specialists (Berserkers, Nobz etc).

The reason for this is S8 is enough to wound most anything on 2's and insta-kill alot of units and a 3++ Inv save is enough to weather those AP attacks before you can strike back.

 

However Sternguard have other tools that accomplish similar goals.

Hellfire round will wound anything on 2's as well. Now you will get your armor save in most situations BUT you can also shoot much more and at the equivalent of I10 so weight of firepower might make it even in most situations.

A Power Fist backed up by some Combi-Melta will usually be enough for most heavy walkers, the TH/SS have the advantage in durability here but walkers are also the least concern of the 3 I mentioned.

Again your special ammo will help you against assault specialists and the combination of 2 attacks (3 with Pedro) and a Power Fist means you won't be helpless against them. The big advantage is being able to dakka them down for a turn prior to their assault.

 

My thoughts exactly, although I think I'd prefer to not have to resort to the power fist vs a walker.

 

Neither are particularly strong vs hordes (but that's what the rest of your army is for), but as far as I'm aware sternguard are good against the full range of targets TH/SS terminators are good against, and maybe a couple more besides.

 

20 hellfire rounds against an MC with a 3+ save is just under 4 wounds. If you're up against someone with no armour ('nidzilla) you can fire off your melta instead - ten melta shots is just over five wounds, so you can do some combination of the two if you need to. This is generally the biggie as far as "targets" for your TH/SS, right?

 

Against walkers, you'll ideally want to fire off your melta. At 310 points (with a rhino) you get five melta shots. If you're within 6" in the shooting phase (and remember, your terminators are also within 6" in the shooting phase if they're going to assault) five meltaguns gives you a >95% chance of wrecked/explodes vs an AV13 walker.

 

Against assault specialists, it'll really depend on the situation which ammo you fire, but you'll always have one to give you an advantage. 20 shots with a threat bubble of 12" + 2" + 12" = 26" should let you take chunks out of even nob bikers.

 

Plaguemarines are a problem since they don't have access to anything that ignores FNP.

 

My thoughts were "Is there anything that absoloutely *must* be killed in assault? If not, under what circumstances is it better to just shoot it?" and my answer so far is "often?".

 

So what happens when you face an army that relies not on one hammer unit but an actual army? Your little trick, which depends on you going first AND the opponent actually deploying anything juicy, gets rid of one, maybe two targets. Wiping a land raider is a huge gain from a cheap speeder and scouts. Wrecking a dakka pred or a HB razorback or 1 leman russ or 1 carnifex out of a dozen similar targets has a much smaller impact on the operation of the army.

 

Meltas are great, but that does not mean lascannons are completely worthless. Why? You open up tactical options with a lascannon. The Melta weapon operates on a very short leash, with a very one-track method of delivering the weapon system. Lascannons, on the other hand, have a great range, which allows you to operate at a wide number of ranges with less risk to the firer. The melta requires you to be point blank, a range that virtually guarantees destruction when faced with any standard fighting formation. A lascannon, while less effective, can work to break formations and incite disorder in battle by forcing opponents to give chase to the weapons firing on them. Part of the lascannon's cost comes from the tactical flexibility they grant. Melta works through singular but brutal power. Both have their places in an army, and deciding to not use a weapon system simply because you don't like it leads to you becoming close minded, thus strategically inflexible.

 

Against the kind of army you describe, a LR with TH/SS terminators will be even worse, since that's even more of your limited points invested in a single place - although I think if your opponent is playing a dozen of anything big at 1500 points, you might consider accusing him of cheating :lol:

 

First of all, I'm not avoiding the Lascannon because I "don't like it". I'm avoiding it (particularly on the vanilla LR) because for the points it doesn't do its job. Mech is in fashion. I want anti-tank. Point-for-point the lascannon does not deliver enough, so I am forced to either go melta, or live with my opponents tanks for longer. Your LR in your deployment zone (with 200 points of assault terminators in doing nothing? O.o) is also a lot less invincible than I think you give it credit for, particularly against the kind of highly mobile melta which is popular right now.

 

The LSS + scouts are still valuable if I go 2nd. Claiming objectives from 24" away wins many games!

 

In a KP game where I go 2nd they're more difficult to use, and how I do so will depend on the situation. Ideally I can hide them somewhere and still zoom into 12" of enemy armour. More often, though, I'll have them at the edges and settle for picking off isolated targets. Remember, against anything AV12 or less (especially transports), one MM is better than one Lascannon even from 24".

 

Also, I'm not sure I get your point about them maybe not having a target. Sure it's great being able to cripple an army with one shot, but if you deploy three dakka preds and six dreadnoughts, I still have to pop them somehow - and I'm still liking melta better for the job. In fact, in an objective game I'd pop a disposable dakka pred, let you clean up (because they'll keep popping if you dont' deal with them) while the other 1350 points of my army takes advantage of your force being otherwise occupied and call that breaking even. In the list I gave above, I'd prefer to hit some anti-tank, but hey, if you're not going to field any for fear of giving my scouts a target, then I'll count that as breaking even too. :P

 

I'd say that the attack bike or skimmer's faster movement compared to a land raider or especially a 3-las-pred makes it more tactically flexible, not less.

 

Anyway, that's kind of off-topic. What do you think of using ten sternguard in a rhino instead of five TH/SS terminators in any LR (saving you 100-150 points to spend elsewhere) in 1500-1850 point games?

[minigun762]

Anyway, that's kind of off-topic. What do you think of using ten sternguard in a rhino instead of five TH/SS terminators in any LR (saving you 100-150 points to spend elsewhere) in 1500-1850 point games?

 

I think its a viable option, but I'll toss out another one to consider.

What about Tactical Terminators with CML or AC?

 

Little to no need for any kind of transport so you can save points there and your weapons are enough to threaten MCs, Walkers and assault specialists and while you might not pack TH or a 3++ save, its easy to get a 4+ cover save and you're still using Power Fists.

[Grey Mage]

Ive always enjoyed tactical terminators with a heavy weapon *or two in the old books* but I dont see much support for them online...

 

With the nerf to starcannons and a good fireline support to help against executioners et all I really dont think they lack much in durability compared to Assault termies.

 

Edit: But 10 Sterngaurd with a PF and a couple of combi-weapons is also a good standby, or 5-6 in a razorback. Theyre a threat to any infantry, and pretty reasonable for the threat they pose.

 

In some ways they are very similar to the mounted 10 strong 1kson squad in C:CSM... 21 shots of solid AP 3 firepower wipes out tactical squads and does decently against hordes..... and around 350pts theyre fairly well priced.

[Giga]

And as we've discussed before, I feel that if you take another (expensive) hammer unit, you don't have enough points leftover for the support and scoring options.

In 1500 pts (or less) I would agree.

 

In 1750+, dual hammer units become an extremely valid option.

 

I've been playtesting the list I presented in the initial post, and gotha say so far it worked wonders. The LR with termies ^ libby still draws tons of fire, usually enabling the rest of the army to get things done. Oh and, I'm using the list with a combipred, and gotha say that combipred is really doing fine, so thank you for convincing me to give it another try. :blush:

Skip to the conclusion: Point-for-point, close range anti-tank (i.e. melta) is 2-5x more effective than long-range options (i.e. lascannons). Having to start my turn within 24" instead of 54" seems like a small price to pay.

On a purely mathhammer basis, I agree with you 100%.

 

However, I myself tend to experience a certain OVERCROWDING problem in my games. Usually, our tables here are cluttered with the standard 25-30% terrain. Sometimes it's just a few big pieces of terrain, but most of the time it's a bunch of small pieces, making the table very thick with it.

 

This usually causes my offensive elements to bunch up in one spot (because, IMHO, applying pressure to one part of an opponent's army is the way elite armies like marines achieve best results), often making it hard to get clear lines of sight or to even get my mm attack bikes or mm/hf speeders into the 12" range. This is especially evident late-game, when my terminators are out smashing faces and the sternguard are out of their transport and there's a tactical squad there trying to grab an objective and the opponent is moving his stuff in to prevent me from keeping the said objective or to shield his own objective. It makes for a very cluttered situation, with tons of models standing close to each toher, which makes it hard for things like mm speeders and mm attack bikes to navigate into any sort of a favorable position.

 

Which is why I found having long-range anti-tank is actually a great idea. It's not that lascannons are very effective (on a one-to-one basis, 3 x mm attack bikes are far better at tank-killing then a combipred could ever hope to be), it's just that they can be positioned somewhere and used throughout the battle, not suffering from the overcrowding syndrome that would otherwise force attack bikes or speeders to go into terrain or be unable to get into melta range.

 

 

 

 

Concerning the LSS+scouts early vehicle-killing charge. As spartan pointed out, it relies completely on your ability to get first turn, which means it can be easily pwned by such simple things as reserves, deep striking, dawn of war deployment, failure to get the first turn, an opponent that doesn't rely on particular hammer units to do the job (such as most CSM armies) etc.

The main point of my post was to ask you and/or everyone else: "Have you tried using, say, two full units of sternguard as your two 'hammer' units?"

I did. I find their price, combined with their lack of invulnerable save, makes them die too easily compared to their price.

On a related note, what do you find TH/SS terminators useful for that nothing else in the list can do for cheaper?

Combined with a LR classic, th/ss termies are extremely versatile and extremely threatening. They can murder anything short of massed infantry (ork boy mobs, IG infantry platoons etc.), and they can fit any situation. There are very few competitive armies out there that aren't in some way vulnerable to this unit. The entire unit also synergizes very well with the rest of the army.

Anyway, that's kind of off-topic. What do you think of using ten sternguard in a rhino instead of five TH/SS terminators in any LR (saving you 100-150 points to spend elsewhere) in 1500-1850 point games?

It depends on target saturation.

 

10 sternguard with a powerfist, in a rhino, cost 310 pts, and are quite dangerous (more so if you got Pedro).

 

This means your opponent will be paying attention to them, shooting his long-range anti-tank in an attempt to destroy their rhino and get to the crunchy sternies inside. Which, let's face it, is an easy task when all you have to do is take out a rhino.

 

Hence, unless you got some real good target saturation going, those sternguard are not going to live long enough to do their job. Even two such squads are unlikely to do their job, simply because their threat factor will draw lots of attention, and because rhinos are only 11 11 10, and hence easy to take out/immobilize/stun by just about any weapon.

 

Which is why sternguard in a rhino synergize so well with th/ss termies in a LR - because they are the only HARD unit in vanilla dex that draws more attention then sternguard in a paperthin transport.

 

 

 

 

You also mentioned the LR not being used fully (sitting in the back shooting). This is true, but it's something that is to be accepted some of the time. Against stuff like IG and Tau, you want to assault them as soon as possible, so there's precious little opportunity for your LR to use its lascannons. On the other hand, against assault armies (orks, tyranids, khorne CSM, wolves) you will usually be on the defensive, which means you'll be sitting back shooting your lascannons, and then charging with your assault termies around turn 3 or 4, making full use of both the LR and the termies.

[Brother_Fatiswon]

WeLL i read 3 pages 1st 2nd and 6th and Hell, i learned more than i thougth i would.

but what i didn't see any of was how to deal with the new hordes of bugs,those ale drinking oh so close to

chaos Flea Mongers, or the 41th century meat grinders.

for SM:Puppies i say plasma plasma plasma, and muti tar pit units to hold up key elements

for IG: Bikes bikes bikes bikes and a few LSTs w/MMx2 maybe a DP'd VAS(VVS) w/kantor or chappie as 2nd HQ

and for the Lash and over powered BUG psych games: Read very Carefully....

DH allies: to DEX SM or any varient, and take 'hoods or null rods or wards or any thing eles that

combats Psyche: while i don't play em, a 20 man black templar crusader squad w/ a Bt chaplin and Inquz Lord w/ a NULL Rod, Or Hood w/wards and Word of the Empire (can't be assualted) back by a 2nd 20 man BT crusader w/ EC and a reg inquizator and a null rod. sic sic sic sic sic sic sic, should be feared over and again.

[Giga]

1500pts

HQ

Capt + TH + PP - 145

Capt + PF + Combi-flamer – 135

 

Elites

Dread + Tl AutoCan - 115

 

Troops

Tac Squad (5) + Rhino - 125

Tac Squad (5) + Combi-flamer + Razor - 140

Tac Squad (5) + Razor - 130

 

Fast Attack

2 x Typhoon - 180

2 x Typhoon - 180

2 x Land Speeder (Multimelta) – 120

 

Heavy Support

Vindicator - 115

Vindicator - 115

Can't say I like this list. I feel it has too many paperthin models (the only vehicles with armor over 11 here are the two vindicators), and way too few bodies. It might work as an alpha-strike sort of thing, but even that doesn't seem particularly likely. Captains don't synergize particularly well with this list either.

 

If you want a list that doesn't rely on one or two hammer units to do the heavy hitting, and instead spreads out the firepower through the whole army, you might wanna check spartan249's list a couple pages back. I think that might be more to your liking. :wallbash:

[gettothegone]

One of the things that really guided my list building for the beginning part of 5th ed was the mech lists you're seeing from Marines / IG. This forced the melta spam issue we all love. In some cases my drop podded Stern Melta Spam lists would put serious hurts on mech if the opposing general was totally oblivious to our Drop Pod rules, smarter Generals would cause me to rethink my options constantly.

 

The advent of the new Tyranid Codex and the recent Space Puppies dex has brought the Librarian to the forefront of our HQ selection with the extreme psychic abilities that we're starting to see. In my opinion, I never leave home without one, and in some cases... counts as Tiggy just due to the combinations you can come up with.. " Init 10 / Str 6 / Null Zone " Assault their HQ and giggle? Or if its not an eternal warrior, " Init 10 / Null Zone / Keep an open use of a force weapon death "

 

Anyway I digress as I'm sure there are lots of answers for Psychic spam.... ala Eldar and apparently the new Tyranid Codex, and there are always rocks to the scissors.

 

I agree entirely about Plasma guns making a significant return. I currently run them in my tactical squads along with LasCannons as a mobile firebase in Rhinos. AP2 will be more and more valuable as the game rolls on especially with Terminator heavy Wolves and high toughness Nids on the uprise. Trust me, you're going to want to figure out ways to kill some of the MC's they have coming up, and you're not going to want to try it sitting 12" away from them.

 

The major issues I see with melta is that its pretty much a one and done deal, and that a lot of people tend to assume that most people they play against are pretty much unable to figure out support. The Nid codex is up shortly, and melta heavy armies are going to get overrun quickly just due to the naturally short range. If you manage to drive all the way up, or drop next to a tank, pop it, and giggle at his inability to deal with you after that... then the general you were playing against didn't support that tank properly or has no concept of bubble wrapping or 4+ by just using a novel concept.... terrain.

 

One thing I didn't see here, and its possible I just missed it, was a TLAC/TLAC Dread. I use these constantly *modded up properly they look great on the table, and intimidating to any air cav player*. 3 of them to be exact. Bar none, I find these to be the most adept at opening cans at 48". Dark Eldar ABSOLUTELY hate them. Veteran / Guard chim spammers hate them. Even Eldar consider them obnoxious. At worst, you can perma lock down AV12 tanks just by stunning them constantly, at best, you're blowing transports up, and turning mech armies into foot armies.

 

Seriously, just go grab yourself 4 dice, roll to hit with rerolls, then roll some glance / pens and you'll be surprised how effective it is vs AV10-12.

 

As said many times and recently by Giga. I have a lot of love for Sternguard, but the fact remains, they die like any other marine, and Rhino's while decent, don't really work with Sternguard when they're designed for bullet saturation instead of objective sitting. You need a significant point sink to make them scoring, and then you take them out of the fight by having them sit on an objective. I guess you could add some heavy weapons for camping out, but cost v. value doesn't add up in my mind.

 

Also it gives a TLAC/TLAC Dread even more of a nod given this Stern / Rhino squad has absolutely no answer for it. They're going to go down to bullet spray without advancing or running away from the objective.... because of a single model at half its point cost.

 

TLAC/TLAC Dreads are quite possibly in my opinion the best All-Comer unit in the book when played to their strengths. Aim them at MCs, aim them at AV10-12, and aim them at GEQs. I'm sure you will find that they are exceptionally gifted at dealing with all of those issues.

[kaiserstole20]

This is an experimental list I've been toying with for my local scene. I haven't play tested it much but so far it's been promising. Tthere are lots of Necron opponents, tyranids, and a smattering of other armies like guard, chaos, and other space marines.

 

1750 pts

KP:12

Models: 58

 

HQ:

Captain

- Jump Pack

- Relic Blade

- Storm Bolter

 

Command Squad

- 4x Plasma Gun

 

Librarian

- Plasma pistol

- Gate of infinity

- Null zone (or another power like MotA, depending on opponents)

 

TROOPS:

Tactical Squad (10 men)

- Flamer

- Plasma cannon

- Power fist instead of bolt pistol on sergeant

- Rhino

 

Tactical Squad (10 men)

- Flamer

- Plasma cannon

- Power fist instead of bolt pistol on sergeant

- Rhino

 

Scout Squad (10 men)

- Power fist and shotgun on sergeant

- Bolt pistol and combat blade on all scouts

 

FAST ATTACK:

Assault Marines (10 men)

- Flamer x2

- Power fist for sergeant

 

HEAVY SUPPORT:

Vindicator

- Siege shield

 

Vindicator

- Siege shield

 

Devastators (7 men)

- 4x missile launcher

 

******************************************

The list has 3 large troop units, 2 mounted in rhinos and 1 cc-oriented scout unit. I find that this is sufficient though having a 4th troop choice (maybe Scout Snipers with Telion?) could be nice.

 

As for HQs, the librarian gates the command squad into a good position and lets them work their magic. The gate of infinity helps position the squad so they can nail rear armor, MCs, units hiding behind objects or other troops, etc.

 

The captain is escorted by the assault squad and chews through many troop units. This unit can massacre orks when I encounter them.

 

My heavy support has 2 vindicators as 'anti-everything' units and a unit of devastators. I know a lot of people don't like devastators but for the point cost I think 7 marines with 4x missile launchers is a pretty good deal. Enough ablative wounds and the missile launchers give the flexibility to take on troops, transports, MCs, etc.

 

The main weakness that I see is vs AV14. Locally I don't see much AV14 and when I do, it's not AV14 all around so getting behind those vehicles with the librarian and command squad is enough to cause a ton of damage. A land raider with assault terminators could put a hurtin' on me if the vindicators can't crack it open in time. If they do, watch out - null zone + plasma is great.

[spartan249]

gettothegone makes a good point about rifledreads, and it is better than the lascannon dread when dealing with transports and infantry. Taking that cheap rifledread config, a 1750 point list that I would field would look like the following:

 

1750 pts "Sample Tourney List v2"

HQ

Master of the Forge: Conversion Beamer - 120 pts

Troops

Tactical Squad: 10 marines, Pgun, Lascannon, Razorback - 230 pts

Tactical Squad: 10 marines, Pgun, Lascannon, Razorback - 230 pts

Tactical Squad: 10 marines, Pgun, Lascannon, Razorback - 230 pts

Elites

Dreadnought: TL Autocannon x2 - 125 pts

Dreadnought: TL Autocannon x2 - 125 pts

Dreadnought: TL Autocannon x2 - 125 pts

Heavy Support

Dreadnought: TL Autocannon x2 - 125 pts

Dreadnought: TL Autocannon x2 - 125 pts

Dreadnought: TL Autocannon x2 - 125 pts

Fast Attack

Attack Bike Squad: 1 Attack Bike, Multi-Melta - 50 pts

Attack Bike Squad: 1 Attack Bike, Multi-Melta - 50 pts

Attack Bike Squad: 1 Attack Bike, Multi-Melta - 50 pts

 

A total of 3 lascannons, 3 Plasma guns, 24 bolters, 12 TL Autocannons, 1 conversion beamer, 3 Multi-Meltas, and 3 Heavy Bolters stuffed into the cheapest configurations possible. With Dreadnoughts able to move and fire all weapons and the tactical squads able to combat squad into 6 scoring units, there are no real holes in the army other than the fact that dreadnoughts CAN be caught in close combat and stay locked in it due to being a walker. Hopefully, this does not become a concern as there are 6 of them and that any transports holding CC units must first weather a storm of S7 hits before dropping off their cargo.

 

I know that I'm going against the flow somewhat from the norm as there is no power fist in the tactical squad, but this is ok because of the focus of the list and the special rules Space Marines are heir to. By virtue of ATSKNF, the combat squadded tactical squad can either be wiped out the first round of combat they are engaged or lose combat and disengage, and thus leave the offending units out in the open ready to get shot. Any opportunity cost for not taking the power fist is compensated for by the adequate amount of mobile firepower present.

 

The Attack Bikes with Multi-meltas are insurance against the particularily tough tanks, of which there can be quite a few. They are also the last moment contestors and flank annoyances, playing vanguard for the formation.

[mowglie]

@kaiserstole20: For the same points, can you lose the JP captain + assault squad for a bike captain + medium-sized bike squad? (I don't have the codex in front of me atm)

 

@gettothegone: TLAC/TLAC sounds both very violent and very versatile... I hadn't realised you could put two sets on. That'd make a really cool looking model too! Do you pod it, or do you footslog it?

 

I might proxy a list spamming them to try them out.

 

I'm not ruling Sternguard out, though. My "normal" 1500 point list has a unit of ten of them (no Kantor) as a cheaper and imo more flexible (because of their range, and because they're not in assault they won't get bogged down) alternative to TH/SS terminators + LR. They do draw a lot of fire, and they do die, but I find so does a LR + contents.