Creating a tourney All-Comers list with Vanilla Dex

[kaiserstole20]

@kaiserstole20: For the same points, can you lose the JP captain + assault squad for a bike captain + medium-sized bike squad? (I don't have the codex in front of me atm)

 

Yep, sure could. I'd give it a shot if I had the money to try it :jaw:

[gettothegone]

I slog mine just because of the range you get out of them. Also, it saves you a kill point for an open topped transport, and gives you full control of it from the get go. At 48" of range a drop pod is a liability :lol:

 

Don't rule Sternguard out at all. They're exceptional first strike units in pods, and can be significantly hard to root out in fortified ruins where you can go to ground for a 2+. Sure they're not shooting that turn, but MAN is that's an annoying anchor to uproot.

[spartan249]

Well, A drop pod isn't entirely a waste of points.

 

Remember that the dreadnought doesn't have to go into the drop pod. When you're low on FOC slots and you need to throw in some more models with more weapons, drop pods to go with the dreadnoughts can give you some point defense/aggresive assault options when faced with infantry gunlines and other similar horde lists. Just drop empty drop pods on flanks or gaps where you wish to control enemy movement. I throw on Deathwind Missile Launchers into my Drop Pods because the 20 point upgrade makes the drop pod an actual consideration when opponents are trying to decide on what to shoot. It's cheap, and it's a large blast. Can't say no to something that makes IG players think twice about deploying their infantry on foot. But of course, when they do mount them up in Chimeras, they become prime targets for the rifle dreads, which means there are less guardsmen. 55 points each drop pod is a small price to pay for giving the opponent conundrums.

[minigun762]

1750 pts "Sample Tourney List v2"

HQ

Master of the Forge: Conversion Beamer - 120 pts

Troops

Tactical Squad: 10 marines, Pgun, Lascannon, Razorback - 230 pts

Tactical Squad: 10 marines, Pgun, Lascannon, Razorback - 230 pts

Tactical Squad: 10 marines, Pgun, Lascannon, Razorback - 230 pts

Elites

Dreadnought: TL Autocannon x2 - 125 pts

Dreadnought: TL Autocannon x2 - 125 pts

Dreadnought: TL Autocannon x2 - 125 pts

Heavy Support

Dreadnought: TL Autocannon x2 - 125 pts

Dreadnought: TL Autocannon x2 - 125 pts

Dreadnought: TL Autocannon x2 - 125 pts

Fast Attack

Attack Bike Squad: 1 Attack Bike, Multi-Melta - 50 pts

Attack Bike Squad: 1 Attack Bike, Multi-Melta - 50 pts

Attack Bike Squad: 1 Attack Bike, Multi-Melta - 50 pts

 

I'm not a huge fan of the Master of the Forge, he seems like more of a novelty character to me personally. If we dropped him we could make a very similar army, replacing the Heavy Dreads with a combination of Vindicators and Combi-Predators.

Oddly enough I'm actually worried about your anti-infantry (if you don't take Vindicators) Autocannons are decent at kiling infantry but they lack the sheer volume of dice to be your main source. I'd look into moving those Lascannons to Missiles to free up some points and get a tiny bit more anti-infantry in there.

I might also consider replacing one of your Tactical squads with a cheaper Sniper/Heavy Bolter Scout squad. Even at 10 guys, you'll be saving 80 points which is enough for another Bike.

 

Either way I'm being nitpicky but this is the kind of list that I think the Codex Marines should be thinking about.

 

And if you really want a Raider full of Terminators, you can still fit it in, you'll just have to lose some of your fire. Trim the Tacticals and lose 3 Dreads. You'll get a little bit of that firepower back in a standard Land Raider but still, its an overall lose of long range killing for a counter-assault unit. This is a perfect example of an army which just needs an Assault Squad with Chaplain and thats much cheaper.

[gettothegone]

True, they also contest which makes them an issue that people need to deal with eventually as well, saving a unit from at least 1 round of firing. I use pods for many other things, I think rifle dreads do well on their own, but a pod doesn't hurt when you lack mobility to contest or distract. I just think they're a bit too easy to kill for my liking, but don't get me wrong, this definitely does work against people who don't bring much that can touch AV12.

[gettothegone]

1850-2000pt

 

HQ

 

Librarian, Vanilla, Null Zone, Machine Curse(or smite... ap2 makes terms cry)

 

Troops

Tactical Squad: 10 marines, Pgun, Lascannon, Rhino

Tactical Squad: 10 marines, Pgun, Lascannon, Rhino

Scout Squad: 5 man, Shot Guns, Melta Bomb

Scout Squad: 5 man, Shot Guns, Melta Bomb

 

Elites

Terminators: 4x TH/SS, LC, Redeemer

Dreadnought: TL Autocannon x2

Dreadnought: TL Autocannon x2

 

Heavy Support

 

Vindicator: Siege Shield

Vindicator: Siege Shield

Vindicator: Siege Shield

 

Fast Attack

Land Speeder Storm - Hbolter

Land Speeder Storm - Hbolter

 

 

* IN A PERFECT WORLD THIS IS HOW IT WORKS *

 

First turn, I can melta bomb stationary AV14 tanks, or I can hold the speeders out for late game contest / objective grabs. ALSO, because of the nifty range, should I stun a tank, Its a free melta bomb attack next turn should I be lucky.

 

Vindicators move forward in steel curtain so I can deliver my Terms, rifle dreads open cans for STR10 AP2 love. In non kill point games, combat squad the tacticals, place Las cannons in some decent terrain and on objectives, and use the rhinos to shield the vindicators for 4+s as you stroll towards the middle of the table.

 

Am I open to Melta? Yes, absolutely. Am I going to rig the steel curtain so I get cover saves on the more important tanks? Survey Says: You bet.

 

Is the person going to lose his melta squad after he shoots something. Survey Says: Trading a bishop for a knight is sometimes part of the strategy.

 

Of course this is paperhammer... the real world always comes with its own quirks every game :tu:

 

Edit: I intend on running this list in an upcoming 2000pt game. I still have some additions to throw around here, but I'll post battle reports.

[spartan249]

1850-2000pt

 

HQ

 

Librarian, Vanilla, Null Zone, Machine Curse(or smite... ap2 makes terms cry)

 

Troops

Tactical Squad: 10 marines, Pgun, Lascannon, Rhino

Tactical Squad: 10 marines, Pgun, Lascannon, Rhino

Scout Squad: 5 man, Shot Guns, Melta Bomb

Scout Squad: 5 man, Shot Guns, Melta Bomb

 

Elites

Terminators: 4x TH/SS, LC, Redeemer

Dreadnought: TL Autocannon x2

Dreadnought: TL Autocannon x2

 

Heavy Support

 

Vindicator: Siege Shield

Vindicator: Siege Shield

Vindicator: Siege Shield

 

Fast Attack

Land Speeder Storm - Hbolter

Land Speeder Storm - Hbolter

 

So, let's try to make sense of this...

 

Anvil combat group: Tac squad 1, Tac squad 2, Dread 1, Dread 2.

Hammer combat group: LRR, 3 vindicators.

Vanguard combat group: 2 mounted scout squads.

 

Librarian goes with the terminators, if I'm not mistaken. Questionable power selection, namely the CotMS. For 40 points, giving him termie armor with a storm shield and vortex of doom or avenger ensures that he will either make units with invul saves sweat or make recently tank shocked infantry downsize to a much smaller force.

 

The Anvil is as solid as they come. I would change the rhino to a razorback for extra firepower.

 

The Hammer Group is quite the hammer, with 3 bodyguards for the tough as nails land raider. Can also be repurposed for gunline defense, so versatility is present.

 

The Vanguard are suitably versatile and cheap, although the risk factor of putting the written plan into action is notably higher due to the higher number of conditions that must be met.

 

My opinion about the army overall is thus: The Vanguard need to be slightly ironed out. In order to achieve consistency with their performance, we must eliminate as many variables as possible that can interfere with the combat group performing as intended.

[Grey Mage]

Well Powerfist would help greatly, and Heavy Flamers on the LSSs would increase their overall versatility and ignore their bad BS.

 

If theres enough points around pairing them up with a heavy weapon speeder or two wouldnt be a bad idea.

 

And personally if the Libbie is in a landraider Im saying go with avenger.

[gettothegone]

Haha wow I said Machine Curse, I meant Avenger.... hurrrr...

 

I DO have a Term Libby that I've been hemming and hawing about, but for the point cost in 2000pt I believe he's getting the nod. In 1850, I'll opt for the 100pt variant.

 

The storm's heavy bolter is strictly for points reduction for 1850. I could claim flamers in 2000 though.

 

The scout/storm combo is definitely gimmicky, but I've seen it work, and many times its comedic value is half the fun.

 

On the other hand... they also provide a very interesting deterrent for drop armies... their jamming ability will cause 4D6 for scatter should you find yourself against a pure pod army, again gimmick but it does work.

 

 

I CAN, for the points put in another rhino squad, should that be optimal, but the speeders can make great use of terrain, and a flying 4+ should we move down that path.

[spartan249]

The scout/storm combo is definitely gimmicky, but I've seen it work, and many times its comedic value is half the fun.

Fun?! What is this word that you say? I do not understand what fun is D:

 

We can't afford to have any subpar "fun" elements in a list that is designed to cut throats, kick ass, and take names. Which is what this topic is about. The most efficient and reliable units are the only ones that deserve mention in tournament type army lists, and while the scouts and speeder work against tactically and strategically unsavvy opponents, such opponents are sparse in a tournament.

[gettothegone]

My apologies..

 

I'll have them summarily executed, and the speeders dismantled sir.

[Grey Mage]

Dont dismantle them, give them to a Space Wolf!

 

Seriously, We need them.... theyre wonderful.

 

*goes off to drink away his loss*.

[Warprat]

I will throw this out for consideration and possible discussion.

 

What about using a 10 strong Terminator squad with 2 cyclones and a couple chainfists. In its own right, it is quite mobile and as powerful as a Devestator squad with 4 missile launchers. Its only 1 KP. Or, it can be combat squadded, and used with a Land Raider. Both cyclones can be deployed outside the LR, in one squad, where their 4 missile shots can hit large targets, or hit hoards with frags, (the 10 storm bolter shots are also very nice.) The other Terminator combat squad has the chainfists and can be teamed up inside the Land Raider.

 

The above units are quite a bit of points, so everything must be tactically flexable. An appropriate HQ might be a Librarian in Terminator armor with Null Zone and Vortex of Doom or substitute one of the powers for Gate.

 

The Land Raider need not always be teamed up with the Termies. It could, for instance, roll with the Rhinos and pick up stranded Tactical squads. The Tactical squad then gains the benefits of keeping up with a Rhino wave, and gains assault deployment. The Termies can start loaded, then unload to re-mobilize the Tacs.

 

Anyway, the Land Raider is freed to be used in a mulitude of roles, vs the more limited traditional Assault Terminator role. The Librarian, especially if Gate is used, opens up more movement options, and can be used to Gate the Termies around, or pick up another straggler unit to be used to better effect.

 

Tactical Terminators teamed up with a Null Zone Librarian, can put the hurt on thier Assault Terminator opponents, pretty much equalizing things.

 

 

 

Anyway, there are a whole lot of very flexable options that can be used with such an expensive combo, from gunline to all out assault, to deepstrike via teleport.

 

Warprat ;)

[spartan249]

Alright then. 10 tac termies with a land raider comes out to about 730 points. That's quite a price tag. While this kind of unit is great when you have an ungodly amount of points to spend, it's not so great when you only have a limited number to use. For a similar price, I can have 2 full devastator squads with 4 missile launchers each in razorbacks accompanied by 2 whirlwinds. Or I can have 7 MM/HB land speeders accompanied by 2 vindicators with dozer blades, both of which put out more high strength weapon shots than the termie + LR's 4 missile shots and 2 lascannons. You have to remember that there is always an opportunity cost for taking elite units like terminators, which is the extra big guns you could be taking instead of your shiny troopers. Yes, the terminators all have power fists, but it's almost required on a unit like terminators, who's strategic inflexibility demand that they take care of themselves in the face of tactical outmaneuvering.

 

The Terminators are not on par with devastators in terms of fire output, they're 2x worse, as they cost twice as much to put the same amount of heavy weapons fire on the field. This is made up for by "better armor" and the powerfists, which is what I think is counter productive to a space marine army's goals. If you play the army correctly, there is no need for counter assault units because of the fact that there are so many things to target. When you can have 5 to 6 different powerful targets as opposed to 2 uber targets, you get longer survivability and compartmentalization, which is critical when attempting to control your damage intake.

 

End point I'm trying to make: Too expensive and wrapped up in too few easy targets to take on.

[Majere]

I have playtested some lists with vulkan for a while now.

 

My views that I would like to share are these:

 

1) For 1750pts or below 2 land raiders are a big problem. You are left with no support and this hurts a lot.

2) Too many land speeders and you are giving a lot of killpoints easily, plus they are easily disabled. I believe a max of three is good.

3) One classic Land raider for 1750 provides good long range support, and a vehicle to put your single character if you use rhinos as I do.

4) One vindicator is a must for horde and meq control. Priceless.

5) Try for at least 4 lascannons. The range is absolutely needed. A combi-pred and a classic land raider can give you a lot of support when you do not want to engage immediately.

6) I have started using fewer and fewer flame weapons to a min of 2. I am quite happy with this. In their place I am trying plasmaguns and meltaguns.

7) I am turning away from suiside units. Too much of a gamble and I don't like gambling. If I something goes wrong with your suicide unit(s) you play with a big handicap. I didn't start SM to have an unreliable army...

8) Hamer termies are good but I am a tactical player at heart and I am never happy having to keep them in "reserve" if I do not want to engage immediately. Started testing tactical termies in their place.

9) I love dreadnoughts (well not a tactic but they are useful anyway)

 

My sample list is this but it is under serious reconstruction.

 

Vulkan

5 TH/SS termies (4 hammers+1LC)

1 LR classic

1 Dreadnought with plasma cannon+heavy flamer

 

1 tactical with missile launcher+meltagun+combi-flamer + RHINO

1 tactical with plasma cannon+meltagun+combi-flamer + RHINO

 

2 LS tornado with multi melta+heavy bolter

1 LS tornado with multi melta+heavy flamer

1 LS typhoon with heavy bolter

 

1 predator with autocannon+lascannons

1 vindicator with dozer blade

 

This is 1750pts which is the standard for our local tournaments

 

MAJERE

[gettothegone]

Vulkan seems really... out of place in that army.

 

He benefits the terms sure, but then you have them in a ranged raider. Raiders should be delivery systems for Terms. You could cut Vulkan down to Pedro, and the hammer terms to a 5 man vanilla squad of Sternguard, and gain yourself 90+ free points. That way you can feel better about taking that config and sitting back on an objective, AND have some pretty good support if something gets too close... for 90 PTS less.

 

Should you not want to go that route. Grab a Land Raider Crusader instead of the classic version, and go to town.

 

Dread with Plasma Cannon * Vulkan does nothing for this poor guy, give him a melta gun and a drop pod *

 

Both Tacticals are okay and Vulcan gives your melta guns twin linked, the issue with that is... at 12" you're close enough for Multi-Melta 2d6, so your Rhino is going to get kicked in the teeth before you can deliver a blow with it. Combi Flamers are a nice touch. There was a really good writeup I read somewhere about synergistic tactical squad builds. I'll try to find it and post it.

 

Lots of melta on your skimmers, good for tank busting, Vulkan helps heaps here.

 

I'd suggest making all of the Tornado's MM/HFs, that way, if you bust a tank, you can roast the insides as well. Heavy bolters are annoying, but once you're in that kind of range, a flamer will do much more.

 

If you haven't built all of this yet, and if you're looking to buy them I'd look at the following.

 

Since it kinda looks like you're trying to build a fast ranged army, try this.

 

Term Librarian (Null Zone / Gate / StormShield)

5 TH/SS termies (4 hammers+1LC) * I put at least 1 Claw in my group to shed wounds off *

 

1 LR Classic

 

1 Dreadnought with (DCCW/HF, MM) (Drop Pod, Locator Beacon)

 

1 tactical with las cannon+plasma gun + RHINO

1 tactical with las cannon+plasma gun + RHINO

 

4 LS Tornado with multi melta+heavy flamer

 

2 predator with autocannon+lascannons

 

Tank poppin, fast moving, 48" of range.

 

Word of advice.... no matter how shooty you think you are, this vs a tau gunline is like bringing a pistol to a fight where everyone looks like Blain Cooper.

[Warprat]

Alright then. 10 tac termies with a land raider comes out to about 730 points. That's quite a price tag. While this kind of unit is great when you have an ungodly amount of points to spend, it's not so great when you only have a limited number to use. For a similar price, I can have 2 full devastator squads with 4 missile launchers each in razorbacks accompanied by 2 whirlwinds. Or I can have 7 MM/HB land speeders accompanied by 2 vindicators with dozer blades, both of which put out more high strength weapon shots than the termie + LR's 4 missile shots and 2 lascannons. You have to remember that there is always an opportunity cost for taking elite units like terminators, which is the extra big guns you could be taking instead of your shiny troopers. Yes, the terminators all have power fists, but it's almost required on a unit like terminators, who's strategic inflexibility demand that they take care of themselves in the face of tactical outmaneuvering.

 

The Terminators are not on par with devastators in terms of fire output, they're 2x worse, as they cost twice as much to put the same amount of heavy weapons fire on the field. This is made up for by "better armor" and the powerfists, which is what I think is counter productive to a space marine army's goals. If you play the army correctly, there is no need for counter assault units because of the fact that there are so many things to target. When you can have 5 to 6 different powerful targets as opposed to 2 uber targets, you get longer survivability and compartmentalization, which is critical when attempting to control your damage intake.

 

End point I'm trying to make: Too expensive and wrapped up in too few easy targets to take on.

 

Quantity has a quality of its own... Joseph Stalin

 

 

I'm a big fan of your posts, so thanks for the reply!

 

Warprat ;)

[Grey Mage]

Well hrmm.

 

Pedro Kantor- 175

Captain- Bike, Relicblade- 165pts.

 

5 Sterngaurd- PF, 2xC-M, DP- 190pts.

IC Dread- HF, DP- 180pts.

IC Dread- HF, DP- 180pts.

 

10 Tacticals- ML, MG, PF, Rhino- 235pts.

10 Tacticals- ML, MG, PF, Rhino- 235pts.

10 Tacticals- LC, MG, PF, Rhino- 240pts.

 

6 Bikers+ AB- 2x MG, MM, PF- 270pts.

 

Whirlwind- 85pts.

Whirlwind- 85pts.

 

2000pts.

 

Thoughts?

[minigun762]

What about using a 10 strong Terminator squad with 2 cyclones and a couple chainfists. In its own right, it is quite mobile and as powerful as a Devestator squad with 4 missile launchers. Its only 1 KP. Or, it can be combat squadded, and used with a Land Raider.

 

I agree with the first part but a Land Raider really doesn't offer them much. Their main advantage is being able to hurt the opponent without relying on any transports or even deepstriking.

 

Realistically, a squad like you've described could claim/hold a flank pretty well by themselves. Support them with a single Tactical squad in a Rhino for holding an objective and you'll create a well protected flank.

[spartan249]

@grey mage

Unless I'm reading your list wrong, I do believe your tactical squads have missile launchers, yes?

 

The third squad should cost 245 points as a lascannon costs 10 points, not 5.

 

And also, the list isn't 2k, it's 2045. Methinks you should rub the sleep out of your eyes and fix the point values.

 

@warprat

I'm suprised that anyone's been reading my posts at all. XD

[Majere]

@gettothegone : Well Vulkan has done a lot for me in this build. I am with the camp that believes you do not have to fill up in melta and flamers if you use Vulkan. I try to keep my option open. He is a good fighter and makes my army even more reliable at shooting. Also I can depend to correct my attacks with the termies if things go bad and I roll poorly for a big charge.

 

The meltaguns for the tacticals are more of an extra insurance should things go bad and I lose my speeders early. Also they add a good shot just before a charge... I could even kill a transport and assault its contents with this unit.

 

The Land speeders with melta and bolter are just a test I did to see if the survivability would change. You see unless I have to close in with the meltas I can stay at range and shoot with the bolters. Its that or typhoons with melta. I will have to see about that.

 

The dreadnought adds something that the army does not pack a lot and that is a AP2 pie plate, on a moveandshoot platform. It can also change to shooting light transports or enemy light skimmers if needed.

 

Basicaly my approach is to try to be as much tactical as I can. Shoot the killy ones and kill the shooty ones...

I will not close in unless it is on my terms. On pinch though if I play against Tau or Guard for example I have the mobility and the killyness needed, or so I think...

 

MAJERE

[minigun762]

There is alot of good information in here I think, I feel sorry for the poor SOB who has to filter it out. :)

[Warprat]

Here is my first attempt at a list...

 

 

 

HQ:

Pedro Kantor

175 pts

 

 

ELITE:

Sternguard

2x Plasma Cannon

Razor Back

185 pts

 

Sternguard

2x Plasma Cannon

Razor Back

185 pts

 

 

 

TROOPS:

10 man Tactical

Flamer, Missile Launcher, Powerfist

Rhino

230 pts

 

10 man Tactical

Flamer, Missile Launcher, Powerfist

Rhino

230 pts

 

10 man Tactical

Flamer, Missile Launcher, Powerfist

Rhino

230 pts

 

 

 

 

ASSAULT:

5 man Assault (Kantor's ride)

Rhino

100 pts

 

Tornado Landspeeder

Hvy Flamer, Multimelta

60 pts

 

Tornado Landspeeder

Hvy Flamer, Multimelta

60 pts

 

 

 

 

HEAVY:

Predator

Hvy Bolters

85 pts

 

Predator

Hvy Bolters

85 pts

 

Vindicator

Siege Shield

125 pts

 

 

1750 Total

[FabulousRex]

Regarding Dread Spam:

 

I really like the Rifle-Dread for how it works and fills a very important niche (long-range anti-Mech), but I think just a little bit of variety would help a Dread Spam list. I think taking an even ratio of TL Lascannon models would help alot, for 2 reasons. Firstly, you have a way of taking out the heavier armor out there at the same range, and it still does a damn fine job wrecking av12 and under. Second, you keep that DCCW, which provides a valuable dis-incentive to just rush TacSqds into assault against your Dreads. The ConvBeamer is fun and all, but I feel a MotF does best with a PW joining a squad for assault. With the points saved from dropping 1 MMAB and down-gunning your MotF, you could pay for those TLLCs and fit a PF onto one of your TacSqds (always a solid option).

 

Random Though time:

Vanguard always have had a less than stellar rep. But have people tried fielding non-tooled squads in Razorbacks? It comes out to 160pts bare-bones. Add in a 6th dude, a PF and 2 SShields, and it's only 220 for a quite respectable counter-assault unit that can tackle many of the same things TH/SS Terms can (at a smaller scale), and handle Hordes better.

[Brother_Fatiswon]

oK if i was going to a Turret'Ment... i think i'd run something like one of these...

 

 

1500pt The Stern Rhino piggy piggy piggy Crimson Fisters list.

 

HQ: Pedro Kantor

 

Alpha Tactical 10m PC PF PG MB CombiFL

Alpha's Rhino EA DB

 

Bravo Tactical 10m PC PF PG MB CombiFL

Bravo's Rhino EA DB

 

SternGuard:Echo Squad 9m PF x2HFL MB

x07 CombiMelta

Echo's Rhino EA DB

 

SternGuard:Delta Squad 10man PF MB LC HFL

x08 CombiPlasma

Echo's Rhino EA DB

1500pt total.

Battle Plan: Use Cover.

 

 

 

OR Crimson Fist Redeemers

 

HQ: Pedro Kantor

 

Alpha Tactical 10m PC PF PG MB CombiFL

Alpha's Rhino EA DB

 

Bravo Tactical 10m PC PF PG MB CombiFL

Bravo's Rhino EA DB

SternGuard:Echo Squad 10m PF x2HFL MB

x08 CombiMelta

 

 

SternGuard:Delta Squad 10man PF MB LC HFL

x08 CombiPlasma

Echo's Rhino EA DB

 

HeavySupport: LandRaider Redeemer

EA MM SB

1750pt Total

Battle Plan: use Land Raider as cover.