Creating a tourney All-Comers list with Vanilla Dex

[Brother_Fatiswon]

Random Though time:

Vanguard always have had a less than stellar rep. But have people tried fielding non-tooled squads in Razorbacks? It comes out to 160pts bare-bones. Add in a 6th dude, a PF and 2 SShields, and it's only 220 for a quite respectable counter-assault unit that can tackle many of the same things TH/SS Terms can (at a smaller scale), and handle Hordes better.

 

i run the VvS: with great results, but i run it 10/m in a pod or Rhino you get a free PW on the sgt. at 260. aDD 100pt Chaplin.. and you get 40 Re-role to hit attacks with 8 of those Neg. armor saves... Trick is to time your Charge to match flamers or bleeder units (x2 PG on bikes, TDA SB/AC, Sternguards...)

[Bannus]

Let's keep this thread on the subject of HOW to build certain lists and not critiquing actual lists - there is a whole other forum for that.

[spartan249]

We have to apply the discussion in some manner, and making army lists with the most recent ideas incorporated into them is a good way to experiment on how to tie up all the ideas presented in the discussion. I, for one, am saving some of the lists I consider good for later, going to try play testing them and see if they work as intended.

 

That being said, we should stop posting army lists so often that have nothing to do with the discussion at hand.

 

On-topic: I think we should start discussing the subject of counter-assault units. Some cost-benefit analysis on taking CC insurance could help in questioning our habit of putting CC monsters in a list that very well may not need them.

[Grey Mage]

Well in some cases its not at all at odds with having a firebase- Dreadnaughts, Sterngaurd and Tactical Terminators are all good firebase units that can be quite deadly on the assault aswell.

 

Other units like Assault Squads and Vangaurd are also rather good at the Counter-assault role, but particularly in the case of assault squads they seem better as hammer units to me, counter assaulting only against foes who you KNOW will be coming at you- like orks.

[spartan249]

Well, the thing I had in mind was the cost of taking those assault squads and vanguard squads and assault terminator squads with their land raider. What exactly is the cost of taking these dedicated CC units in terms of guns lost? Are the guns that are lost less valuable than what is gained by including these dedicated CC units?

 

I agree that Dreadnoughts, Sternguard, and Tac terminators can find value in dakka lists as they can multi-task, especially the terminators. I'm just not sure, however, that taking extremely expensive dedicated CC units is always a good idea. If it can be done cheaply and with minimal loss to the significant guns in the list, then I think it's a good idea. 8 Assault Termies in a LRC with toys may not be a great idea at all.

[Grey Mage]

Well frankly I think the times that 8 Assault Termies in a LRC is a good idea are rather few and far between to begin with, so its no small loss in my opinion.

 

Id say that 3/5 times an expensive assault option isnt much better than a standard assault option. Sure, that 580pt squad just obliterated two 60pt gaurdsmen squads.... and? at about 2/5 the price a 10 man assault squad could have done the same thing, or a 5 man vangaurd squad deepstriking. Or a whirlwind over a couple turns.

[Majere]

I have to agree with the last posts about the counter-assault options.

Although I am happy with the results the the TH/SS termies produce, I keep feeling that I could have done the job better.

My opinion is that probably the tactical termies should replace them. In this way the Land raider can trasport anything we like, we earn 35 points from the rhino to spend on the tactical termies and we get 2 more missiles for our fire support. Also we are tacticaly flexible on the deployment as now there is the deepstrike option available. I don't think that the loss of the 3++ save is so big, but I will have to do some mathhammering and some playtesting.

 

The big question is what do we use for our HQ option. Do we change from the standard Vulkan to a librarian? Do we lose the reliability of twin linked weapons to the reliability of the enemy psyker shut down? Maybe we can even play with some footslogging elements since now lash is more difficult to hit us.

 

MAJERE

[Grey Mage]

Lash isnt that great on its own... if you have enough fast elements in your army to take out his Defilers and obliterators, or at least enough LR firepower then lash only helps his DP get into assault... and thats not an issue when you have alot of powerfists ready to rip him apart.

[Majere]

So we agree that lash should not be a major consideration for the list provided that we use a form of counter-attack. Good.

 

Do you think that a unit with 5 termies with cyclone and chainfist working in tandem with a tactical squad, an HQ attached and together inside a classic LR is a strong and flexible force?

 

MAJERE

[Grey Mage]

Im not sure I understand what you mean frankly. A Tac TDA squad supporting a tactical squad is a solid choice... but that above cant be all of an army, nor can they all fit in a Landraider.

[Majere]

I am sorry about that. I meant that the tactical and the HQ will be in the LR, supporting the advance of the termies. In this way you get two "sort of" hammers for the army that are flexible enough to do a lot of things. Plus you get a scoring LR.

 

MAJERE

[Grey Mage]

Oi, that makes sense enough, though frankly for that kind of Tactic I think the Crusader is the best option, and heres why:

 

Tactical Squad in a Rhino- around 230-250pts.

LRC with a MM- 260pts.

 

The firepower of a Crusader is VERY similar to that of a Tac Squad + Rhino that are standing around... but can be used on the move. Then, your opponent has to destroy that mobile AV 14 bunker, just to then have to kill the tactical squad inside... with no real loss in firepower, and as you said its scoring.

[Brother_Fatiswon]

Let's keep this thread on the subject of HOW to build certain lists and not critiquing actual lists - there is a whole other forum for that.

I fail to see how you feel this string has or was off topic. the Poster STARTED the Posting with a tourny list wieghting in at 1750. and it is titled "creating a tourney All comers list with Vanilla Dex". Some times i as a New poster, dont feel like writing out each and every little aspect of, IMHO how units would stand VS, the Other 7 races in the World of 40k, let alone how they would Stand VS the subsets of those seven Races Example:BT SW DH:I(only) WH:SOB (only) Bug:hordeZilla Chaos:Cult Followers Eldar: ulthwa(sp) bel tien(sp) ORks:kult of speed Dread bash(remember that??) IG:Track and Cannon etc etc

 

And while i'd like to think this "Steering" By Said Admin was NOT caused by my posting, I DO FEEL LESS like sharing my thoughts and feeling on this subject because of it.

 

SO with all that being said....

if i was going to play in a 1750 and i wanted to run an All comers list:

1st, you'll need to know how you think you'll want to play: Style: "- there is a whole other forum for that."

2nd you'll need to know which subset of PA rules you'll be using(SW,BT,Sob) but "- there is a whole other forum for that."

3rd you'll need to know how units support and work in tandum with each other: "- there is a whole other forum for that."

4th you'll need to know the rules that uses by all possible enemies you may face but "- there is a whole other forum for that."

5th you'll need to know how paint your models and roll your dice, but "- there is a whole other forum for that."

 

My Point is, and here i go beating the dead horse into school lunch meat... oh wait... "- there is a whole other forum for that."

and if i'm banned for this, i guess i thought my Rights of Free Speech applied.

and yes... i know it's "big internet" i can go eles where.

 

btw none of the posting on page 8, after the so said "steering" seem to apply to the IDEAL of how to build a "all comers 1750 PA toury list"

[Brother_Fatiswon]

Glad you guys like my list, but that's not the point of this thread. It's just an example. ;)

 

I want you guys to show me your own all-comers list, to tell me why you do stuff you do, and how exactly this list of yours deals with the current trends of Njal, wolfwing, multiple vendettas, alpha strike IG, vulkan, and the like. I want to make a discussion that will hopefully benefit everyone who's interested in a little indepth tactic. :)

 

Found this on PAGE 1. listed by GIGa, the Started of the Thread.

Guess ITS my bad that i didn't detail out how to use a single LLR w/3 Rhinos and 3 10 man PA Scorcing units +1 SIC and 9man Elite Scoring unit (speical Ind. Char.) VS the rest of the world. but you know "-there is a whole other forum for that."

[Warprat]

Brothers,

 

I agree that seeing a few more lists would be very interesting. While discussion of individual units, or combinations is interesting and useful. It is the ulltimate combination "the list" that we eventually need.

 

And when people do build those lists, (Which can be time consuming and hard to make) lets do those posters the honor of posting many positive comments as well as a few justified critisisms. It takes a lot of energy to build something, but only a little negative energy to destroy.

 

I, for one, favor building...

 

 

 

So much of the game is rock, paper, sissors. The perfectly ballenced list is like searching for the Holy Grail. We arn't going to find it people... but what we can find are well ballenced lists that have "synergy" and cost effectiveness. I believe that is the goal that we can obtain, and that is worthy of our persuit.

 

 

 

To you all!

 

Warprat ;)

[Majere]

Thanks for the comment Warprat.

Posting a thought out list and having the others commenting and "ripping it up" I believe is actualy what this thread is about after all.

 

Down to it then, my view (and my playstyle) is that we should create a shooty list with a strong countercharge unit that can hold up a strong unit of the opponent. Mobility is a must these days so do not go for static units. I especialy like and will try out some the lists that Spartan249 has posted as I think he is on the right track.

 

The thing is though that we should begin to build this list together. We should try and decide for a strong core first and then see what other support we can attach.

 

1750 tournament list CORE

-------------------------------

Tactical squad with missile launcher, flamer and combi-flamer

Rhino

 

Tactical squad with plasma cannon, meltagun, combi-flamer

Rhino

 

these add up to 440pts.

 

What ever the HQ or the other support these two units can defend an objective, can deal with hordes, can deal with tanks and heavy infantry.

If we choose Vulkan they will be even more of a threat due to the reliability of the flamers and the meltagun. If we choose Sicarius they can scout and seek better position for that plasma cannon.

A power fist could be given to the first unit if at the end we can spare the points.

 

Anyone care to join?

 

MAJERE

[Grey Mage]

Interesting idea, but I think wed need a couple threads for that- as an example I think the perfect core for a good tournament list with C:SM could just easily be:

 

 

5 Bikes+ AB- 2x Meltagun, Multimelta, Powerfist- 235pts.

5 Bikes+ AB- 2x Meltagun, Multimelta, Powerfist- 235pts.

5 Scouts- Powerfist, Combi-weapon- 110pts.

Landspeeder Storm- Heavy Flamer- 60pts.

 

With a Captain on a bike to make them scoring.

 

But hey, if you start the thread Ill join you with your tactical squads.

[Brother_Fatiswon]

we should begin to build this list together. We should try and decide for a strong core first and then see what other support we can attach.

 

1750 tournament list CORE

-------------------------------

Tactical squad with missile launcher, flamer and combi-flamer

Rhino

 

Tactical squad with plasma cannon, meltagun, combi-flamer

Rhino

 

these add up to 440pts.

 

What ever the HQ or the other support these two units can defend an objective, can deal with hordes, can deal with tanks and heavy infantry.

If we choose Vulkan they will be even more of a threat due to the reliability of the flamers and the meltagun. If we choose Sicarius they can scout and seek better position for that plasma cannon.

A power fist could be given to the first unit if at the end we can spare the points.

 

Anyone care to join?

 

MAJERE

 

ok Armed with 5th ed dex in hand... with the new rules regarding templates, i'd rather Run Sicarius over Vulkan, But, i'd RATHER run a mill run Chapter master at 125, added to Static fire unit.. (either 5 or 10 man Stern guard w/2 Laser cannons or 5/10 man Devs w/ x4 ML or PC) leaning towards the 5m Stern w/2 LC cuz it's 125+30+125=280, not bad for a IC w/ "command unit that pushes 2 str 9 shots and a str 10 ap 1 Large Plate at 48 inches... (add a Razorback to keep em up with the TActs if you feel the need...

so.. that would be

440 + 280(+40)=760

HQ:

Chapter master

 

Troop:

Tactical squad with missile launcher, flamer and combi-flamer

Rhino

 

Tactical squad with plasma cannon, meltagun, combi-flamer

Rhino

 

Elite: Heavy support

Stern guard (5M) + 2xLC +Razorback or Devastator (5m) w/x4 PC + Razorback (230)

x4 ML + Razorback (210)

IDK either 760(stern), 710(x4 PC) or 690, (x4 ML)

 

Funny thing is thou the Cheap option is the most Flexable. due to Krak/Frag shots

hmmmm IDk

[Brother_Fatiswon]

Interesting idea, but I think wed need a couple threads for that- as an example I think the perfect core for a good tournament list with C:SM could just easily be:

 

 

5 Bikes+ AB- 2x Meltagun, Multimelta, Powerfist- 235pts.

5 Bikes+ AB- 2x Meltagun, Multimelta, Powerfist- 235pts.

5 Scouts- Powerfist, Combi-weapon- 110pts.

Landspeeder Storm- Heavy Flamer- 60pts.

 

With a Captain on a bike to make them scoring.

 

But hey, if you start the thread Ill join you with your tactical squads.

 

Funny thing is when i was replying M's request to build a list together, i was also thinking about

A bike heavy list, but my core would be like

Capt on Bike SB MB (143) Anti armor/anti horde

Commad squad w/ bikes x4 SB x4 MB (237) :Anti armor/anti horde

4 bikes + AB w/ MM x2MG PF (205)(anti armor/objective holding)

5 scouts SR x5 (075) Objective holding

5 Scouts SRx5 (075) anti HQ/MC/pinning

2 LLS w/AC (085) Transport/redeployment

total:583

 

added a 3M AB squad w/x3 MM 150 (anti armor)

x3 Whirlwinds 255 (anti horde)

 

405+583+237=1225

 

Add Kantor, 10m sternguard w/ PF +Pod w/deathwind

250+25+55+175=505

1225 +505=1730, with points left for say...2 Heavy Flamers or x4 Combiweap of choice idk

1750 either which way.

[Grey Mage]

Hehe :blink: and I was figuring the perfect way to expand on a bike list was with extra dakka in the form of Kantor+ 20 some sterngaurd.

[Warprat]

Thanks for the comment Warprat.

Posting a thought out list and having the others commenting and "ripping it up" I believe is actualy what this thread is about after all.

 

Down to it then, my view (and my playstyle) is that we should create a shooty list with a strong countercharge unit that can hold up a strong unit of the opponent. Mobility is a must these days so do not go for static units. I especialy like and will try out some the lists that Spartan249 has posted as I think he is on the right track.

 

The thing is though that we should begin to build this list together. We should try and decide for a strong core first and then see what other support we can attach.

 

 

But which play style is correct to build one list? There are many possible ballenced lists using different styles. If we have to choose one style, then I think Giga the OP should choose.

 

For myself, I enjoy seeing a variety of good lists... They all have their strenths and weaknesses as regards to personal experience, ability and play style. But If we go with only one list, shouldn't it be a flexable one that even a fairly new Battle Brother can use effectively, (probably not as well as experienced player of course,) but effective? And if possible, shouldn't it have as low a money cost as possible, so more people can use it?

 

 

Just my thoughts...

 

Warprat ;)

[Majere]

Well on the topic of the variety of lists I agree, there probably is more than one that can fit the bill. Should it be too balanced or cheap enough for all?

Well I am not sure. If you go to a tournament you are not taking with you your fluffy bunnies or what have you, so why should you take a cheap model list?

 

I say we approach the problem from different angles in the same time. We have to choose our troops and this will probably dectate the form of the rest of the list. Let it be so. We can create a couple of lists. Lets call the core of 2 tacticals "tact core" and the 2 bikes "bike core" and see where this leads.

 

I for one will offer advice and experience for the tact core as I only have playtested this lately. To continue on that I will say that lets try to not include any more troops. Lets see if 2 tacticals are enough. Although I feel it is barely enough I always feel cheated when I remove other killier units to include even a half tactical with a razorback at 130pts. As this can easily take the form of almost 2 speeders or a combipred I say we discuss on that.

 

MAJERE

[Grey Mage]

It also depends on the point value though- personally I wont take a list with less than 3 troops choices at 1500 or 1750.

[brother carc]

I've been watching this topic with interest and I've already taken away some great advice so I'd like to see it continue. Instead of us all posting our lists how about we discuss the various strengths and weaknesses of the various types of lists already mentioned and try to refine them to make them as competitive as possible.

I'm in the process of building a bike army right now so I'd like to have a crack at that one first.

 

Army core:

 

HQ:

Captain on bike with relic blade / Khan

(Relic blade seems to be the most common build but we can add hellfire rounds/digital weapons for a little extra punch)

Librarian on bike, Vortex for tank hunting, avenger for horde control

(In tourneys the advice seems to be this is a prerequisite for a competitive build due to lash sanctioned psyker choirs, etc...)

 

Troops:

3 bike squads, builds can vary

2 x meltagun, multimelta (tank hunting)

2 x flamer, Heavy Bolter (horde)

2 x plasma, multimelta (elite infantry, MC, with some anti-tank capability)

 

Heavy support:

2 x vindicators (for Nobz, Tyranid warriors, hordes. Scares almost anything and gives a nice distraction for the bikes)

 

Fast attack:

Here seems to be the greatest variation for the choices so far.

Assault squads - bodies and getting bike squads out of danger

MM/HF landspeeders - tanks and hordes,

MM Attack bikes - Dedicated anti-tank

Landspeeder typhoons - rhino breakers and horde control

 

In the 1750-2000 range I'd say that the two HQ and vindicators are pretty central to the plan. Combat tactics is useful because it can help your bikes escape combats they dont want to be in. The other choices largely depend on how you build your troops though personally i think the dedicated anti-tank role should fall to the fast attack to prevent wasting the bolters of the large bike squads.

I also think Typhoons would be useful in this list as they have the ability to hit targets anywhere on the battlefield and combine a solid firebase with mobility.

 

so if this is the general shape of what could be considered a competitive bike list, how would you refine it? Would plasma for one of the bike squads be worth the investment? What powers would you give the librarian? Finally, what woud you go for in this list, Attack bikes, tornadoes or typhoons?

 

Brother carc

[Brother Captain Josef]

Carc, I like how you have given your bike squads specific roles. Some argue that versatility within squads is key as it can stops your opponent concentrating fire and wiping out one of your capabilities, i.e. anti tank but in a tourney setting you gotta maximise efficiency which this list does. Those bikes are the work horses of this list and the scare factor of the vindicators will help keep them alive which is a nice touch. Gotta be strategic with unit placement though as an unlucky scatter could ruin your day. I might suggest combi preds to avoid scatter issues for a similar points cost but tbh they don't have that 'scare factor' which the vindis do and I can see how important that is to your list.

 

I agree that the Librarian is important to any bike list for lash consideration but remember that @ opponent psyker Ld10 it is only the equivalent of a 5+ save against the power so it's not a perfect answer. You will have to utilise your maneuverability and firepower to keep ahead of the game.

 

Khan vs captain is more of a struggle though. The outflanking is devastating against the right enemy but can be a one trick pony and is virtually useless if you opponent keeps all his juicy stuff in reserve thus ensuring a round of shooting / assault (which you can't get out of) on the turn he/she arrives. The ordinary Captain might be more useful esp against combat hoard armies which you are best to stay out of assault. I think the ordinary captain is more versatile but would depend on your play style.

 

I personally run with typhoon speeders w/Hbolter as the extra range afforded keeps them alive longer. Using frags (S4) allows you to move 12" and still fire both weapons and 2 crack missiles upsets opponents transports which increases your speed / redeployment advantage further and allows your bolters to reap the troops inside.

 

A 10 man assault can act as a hammer unit against combat weak opponents. Against combat strong opponents you should combat squad them and use them to get your bikes out of assaults you dont want to be in but do not expect them to survive and you should therefore only stick in the bare minimum of upgrades. This tactic is only viable with and ordinary codex captain as mentioned above.

 

I would defo keep the plasma m/m bike squad as it adds versatility to your troop selections and is your 'jack of all trades' unit which can effectivly support either of the other two depending on your enemy. Remember that you don't have to fire your plasma as your blokies can use the guns on the bike if they find themselves required against GEQ etc.

 

Your list already has one (and a half really :( ) dedicated anti armour unit so if you want want to stick a squadron of M/M attack bikes for dedicated anti tank then drop the melta guns on the squad and go with plasma or more anti hoard. The only advantage of M/M speeders over bikes is the ability to deep strike to thwack a tank. If you go with this option they are unlikely to survive unless the rest of your army turbo boosts up to threatening positions to make your opponent divide their fire.

 

I hope this all makes sense :)