Creating a tourney All-Comers list with Vanilla Dex

[mowglie]

We've definitely identified two "core" lists:-

 

Mechanised Tactical Squads (410 Points)

205 - Tactical Squad (10 models, Rhino)

205 - Tactical Squad (10 models, Rhino)

 

Bikes (575)

165 - Captain (Bike, Relic Blade)

 

205 - Bike Squad (6 models, Attack Bike, Multi-melta)

205 - Bike Squad (6 models, Attack Bike, Multi-melta)

 

I think deciding up-front which of these is better is beyond the scope of this discussion and we'd do best to discuss them separately.

 

We'd also do best to keep to 1750 points (and I'm as guilty as anyone else of straying from this) simply because that's what the OP posted. The ideal all-comers list will obviously be very different at different points values, so let's stick to one for now.

 

The most important thing to start with, I think, is:-

 

"What do you do with your core list?"

 

- and following on from that:-

 

"What do you not do with your core list, what must you take in addition?"

 

Since I play mech more than bikes, I'm going to concentrate on that side of it.

 

What I do with my core list

215 - Tactical Squad (10 models, Combi-flamer, Flamer, Missile Launcher, Rhino)

215 - Tactical Squad (10 models, Combi-flamer, Flamer, Missile Launcher, Rhino)

 

I use my tactical squads as mobile overwhelming anti-infantry.

 

I don't like to combat squad because I don't feel the need to camp objectives. Additionally, I think paying 80 points for one scoring T4 3+ "5W" krak missile shot camping in my deployment zone is a poor deal. The ML gives limited anti-light-armour, but won't reliably be firing, and doesn't reliably pop when it does fire. Occasionally, I won't need to move, so I'll try to pop a transport with one squad so the other can disembark and assault.

 

What cannot I do with my core list

The tactical core is mobile, moderately resilient, scoring, and excellent anti-infantry. My weakness is obviously anti-tank since 1) I don't yet have an answer at all to AV14, and 2) I'd much prefer to open a transport with another unit so my tactical squads can rapid fire at the contents.

 

This lends itself to the quite common configuration of some combination of MM AB and MM/HF speeder in FA.

 

Rhinos are quite weak, particularly if all your opponent's antitank is focusing on them. It's important to put a few more AV models on the table to get a bit of target saturation going. Dakka pred, vindicator, dread are all good choices. All can contribute to antitransport, all can tackle infantry.

 

A tactical squad in a rhino can score from 14" away. This isn't particularly far, and the rhino is quite likely to have been blown up by the end of the game, so I like to take another fast scoring unit - BP/CCW scouts in a LSS, which also cover antitank (strong), assault (they won't kill assault specialists, but they're excellent vs gunlines), counter-assault (stronger than you'd think, particularly because of the LSS launchers), scoring/contesting (strong, like the rhinos they've probably been blown up, but more threats = more chance one will survive), they're cheap at ~165 points. They're very quick and dangerous, so draw fire from your rhinos quite well.

 

My "extended" list at this point:-

 

215 - Tactical Squad (10 models, Combi-flamer, Flamer, Missile Launcher, Rhino)

215 - Tactical Squad (10 models, Combi-flamer, Flamer, Missile Launcher, Rhino)

090 - Scout Squad (5 models, BP&CCW, Combi-melta, Melta-bombs)

 

065 - Land Speeder Storm (Multi-melta)

100 - Attack Bikes (2 models, 2 Multi-meltas)

140 - Land Speeders (2 models, 2 Multi-melta/Heavy Flamer)

 

115 - Vindicator

115 - Vindicator (although as has been pointed out earlier in the thread, Dakka Pred or TLAC/TLAC dread might be better because of the risk of missing with your blast with your tacs in rapidfire range)

 

= 1055 points (695 left)

 

At this point I have excellent anti-horde and excellent anti-tank, however I'm lacking a bit of out-and-out killiness, particularly in assault, since my tacsquads are inevitably going to get assaulted. I also still need an HQ.

 

695 would buy me Vulkan + 5 TH/SS termies in a LRC with a little change, and then I'd have the cookie cutter "hammer" list.

 

The OP wants to avoid that, though, and so at this point since I'm obviously biased for them (:)) I might suggest a pair of sternguard squads + kantor. Swap those Vindicators for dakka preds:-

 

My final list

175 - Kantor

 

260 - Sternguard Squad (9 models, Rhino)

260 - Sternguard Squad (9 models, Rhino)

 

215 - Tactical Squad (10 models, Combi-flamer, Flamer, Missile Launcher, Rhino)

215 - Tactical Squad (10 models, Combi-flamer, Flamer, Missile Launcher, Rhino)

090 - Scout Squad (5 models, BP&CCW, Combi-melta, Melta-bombs)

 

065 - Land Speeder Storm (Multi-melta)

100 - Attack Bikes (2 models, 2 Multi-meltas)

140 - Land Speeders (2 models, 2 Multi-melta/Heavy Flamer)

 

085 - Predator (Heavy Bolter Sponsons)

085 - Predator (Heavy Bolter Sponsons)

 

= 1690 points (60 left)

 

Those 60 points go on Powerfists wherever you prefer them. I'd probably pop them on the sternguard. You can also reconfigure one of the tactical squads for defence if that's how you play.

 

Let's do a rundown like the one on the first page:-

 

- We're putting down 46 infantry and 10 vehicles (which is quite a lot...)

 

- We've got four big scoring units and a little cheeky one.

 

- We've got two big very flexible "hammer" units, either of which can take out anything that doesn't have an AV. They're no slouches in assault either - especially if they're with Kantor. One squad + Kantor is 32 S4 attacks and 9PF attacks on the charge.

 

- We've got two autocannons, two missile launchers, the orbital bombardment, and possibly a lascannon for opening transports at long range.

 

- We've got four mobile melta platforms, plus the LSS gimmick (which I'm not going to count, since in this list the LSS is probably either off doing something else, or already dead)

 

And the downsides:-

 

- I'm lacking a librarian, but I'm immune to the IG psyker trick anyway, and everything but the bikes is immune to lash until my transports start popping. The hood isn't exactly a reliable way of stopping hostile powers, so I'm reluctant to pay 100 points for it on purely that basis. Null Zone might be nice though...

 

- I've not been following the Tyranid rumours closely, so there might be nasty in there that hoses my list.

 

- Could maybe do with a bit more long-range antitransport - I'm reluctant to drop the scouts + LSS because I really like the launcher on the LSS, but you could shave off a few points and replace them with maybe a pair of typhoons or a TLAC/TLAC dread. I know a lot of players in this thread (particularly spartan249) like lists with fewer "moving parts" if you will. Obviously it depends on your opponent, but I feel like the LSS attracts more fire than it deserves, leaving my imo more dangerous MMAB and MM/HF relatively undisturbed. YMMV ofc, and it's hard to argue with replacing it with the typhoons, or even 2-3 more MMAB.

 

I've not tested this specific list, since I don't play at 1750, so I can't give you any data regarding how it performs in the meta. Only my on-paper thoughts, which I appreciate are of limited usefulness.

[Giga]

But which play style is correct to build one list? There are many possible ballenced lists using different styles. If we have to choose one style, then I think Giga the OP should choose.

I'm flattered. -_-

 

However, I don't think there IS one best style, and the one best way to make a list, simply because there are lots of different players with inherently different minds and playstyles. Hence, what works for Ed, may not work for Mark, and what works for Mark may actually work for Ed too, but not work at all for Fred.

 

This is the great thing about 40k, and all good competitive games - there's so much variation based on personal preference. :)

 

 

 

 

 

As for an army core, it all depends, but as far as tactical squads are concerned, this is my core:

 

Tac Squad Red

flamer, missile launcher, powerfist instead of bolt pistol, rhino

 

Tac Squad Yellow

flamer, plasma cannon, chainsword instad of boltgun, razorback

 

These two come out at 445 pts, and they offer a pair of highly versatile units. The squad Red is there to go forward, rapidfire stuff, maybe get in assault, and generally support other killier elements of the list (such as sternguard units in rhinos, or th/ss termies in LR). Squad Yellow is the objective-camping team that brings two heavy weapons to the table, as well as offering some bolter/flamer shooting, all the while keeping it cheap. I don't feel tac squad yellow needs a powerfist - it rarely if ever gets into close combat, anyway, and if it does it usually means things are already not going my way, anyway.

 

I believe these two tac squads are all the troops a vanilla army should have in 1500 pts, and the core troops for 1750+ lists. They work well with any HQ, so far as I've seen. I even use these two squads in my bike captain lists, where the third scoring unit is a big hefty bike squad which works as yet another hammer list.

 

 

 

EDIT: BTW, you guys got me thinking on this entire 5scouts+LSS thingie. Though it's probably just a gimmick-unit, I feel it might actually be useful for some some missions. Bleh, can't say much without extensive testing, I guess. :)

[mowglie]

EDIT: BTW, you guys got me thinking on this entire 5scouts+LSS thingie. Though it's probably just a gimmick-unit, I feel it might actually be useful for some some missions. Bleh, can't say much without extensive testing, I guess. :D

 

It's worth a go. It gets a bad rep because the first-turn tank kill is, as people have said here, way over-rated. However:-

 

1) When you pull it off, it's lovely

2) Even without it, it's still a fast scoring unit

3) The scouts can assault infantry as well - especially Broadsides, Oblits, Long Fangs, etc.

 

I think a lot of people forget the LSS' rules - particularly its launcher.

[spartan249]

There's always one more, very strange core to consider: Minimum scout squads.

 

Scout Squad: 5 scouts, 4 SRs, camo cloaks, missile launcher: 100 pts

Repeat this unit once or twice depending on how badly you think you need objective holding.

 

Instead of a core that costs 400+ points, you have the minimum necessary to keep the rules off your back and that weighs in at 200 points only. I've played around with this configuration and people always scratch their heads. It has never really given me a disadvantage, however, as I had much more in the elites and heavy support section than they had, which meant that my list had more killing potential than theirs.

 

I personally like cutting off the weakest link from the army and loading up on the stuff that really cracks skulls, which means that I hate troops with a passion. Space Marine troops are better than most, but are not good enough to warrant my adoration. I'd rather have more dreadnoughts or more sternguard or more Vindicators or more Land Speeders.

 

1750 pts "Ain't Really Marines Yet!"

HQ

Master of the Forge: 100 pts

Troops

Scout Squad: 5 scouts, 4 SRs, camo cloaks, missile launcher: 100 pts

Scout Squad: 5 scouts, 4 SRs, camo cloaks, missile launcher: 100 pts

Elites

Sternguard Squad: 10 veterans, 7 combi-meltas, Rhino - 320 pts

Sternguard Squad: 10 veterans, 7 combi-meltas, Rhino - 320 pts

Dreadnought: 2x TL Autocannon - 125 pts

Heavy Support

Vindicator: Dozer Blade - 120 pts

Vindicator: Dozer Blade - 120 pts

Whirlwind: 85 pts

Fast Attack

Land Speeder Squadron: 2 Speeders, MM/HB - 120 pts

Land Speeder Squadron: 2 Speeders, MM/HB - 120 pts

Land Speeder Squadron: 2 Speeders, MM/HB - 120 pts

 

Something like that.

[Brother_Fatiswon]

i swear this is not OFF topic. please bear with me. The tactical notion of "cutting off the head of the army" is one that, if played right does work.

but, a lesson i learned playing a tile base Tactical game on a unnamed handheld video game system, Was that it's not the head you have to sever, but the teeth you have to shatter and the Hands you have to break. Meaning that if your facing an army of say 50 units, tanks, jeeps, planes, helicopters etc etc, and at first, all come at you str 10, if you can knock thier Stat line by premptive striking the most damaging units down to say 5,4 or best yet 3... the damage they can cause is mote to the final out come. Now in terms of WH40k.. a 3 man unit of tactical marnies, that have passed all the needed saves to stay active on the board, can't simply be discounted. but..... if you kill all your Foe's Scoring units, then that's that then.... huh

 

I'm gladed to see that some of the idea i've put down have been embraced. Make feel warm and soft inside my powerarmor.... like hell-fire bolter shells.

 

QUOTE (mowglie @ Jan 6 2010, 05:31 AM)

We've definitely identified two "core" lists:-

 

Mechanised Tactical Squads (410 Points)

205 - Tactical Squad (10 models, Rhino)

205 - Tactical Squad (10 models, Rhino)

 

Bikes (575)

165 - Captain (Bike, Relic Blade)

 

205 - Bike Squad (6 models, Attack Bike, Multi-melta)

205 - Bike Squad (6 models, Attack Bike, Multi-melta)

 

Why does ever Capt have to carry a freakin Relic Blade?

how about...

Capt w/bike and hellfire shells? 145

or capt w/bike and Plasma pistol 150

or Capt w/bike and Stormbolter 138 LOL

or Capt w/ bike and articator armor also also 150

i'd take Capt with bike and melta bomb at 140pt

and x2 5 bike squard w/ 2xFL : 300

total 440 much closer to match the MEch Army Core... just saying

oh, and btw oh Nm.... oh heLL 10pts for a LASER CANNON?? and your puting

10 points on a combi flamer? idk or +5 points for a str 7 small template over a str 4 small template...

well cat's out of the bag now...

 

 

QUOTE (spartan249 @ Jan 6 2010, 12:02 PM)

1750 pts "Ain't Really Marines Yet!"

HQ

Master of the Forge: 100 pts

 

 

 

Why run a MoF? you only have a single dread in your Elites... are you using him for repairs? if so, 6+/a re roll.. isnt going happen often enuff...

Libby or Chappy instead, i'd say...

[Brother_Fatiswon]

[

[Brother_Fatiswon]

[

[mowglie]

Why does ever Capt have to carry a freakin Relic Blade?

 

If you want scoring bikes you need to take a bike captain. If you take a captain, you're best using him in CC. If you're using him in CC, point-for-point a Relic Blade beats BP/Chainsword, or against all targets with Toughness above 2, beats 2x LC against all targets with toughness above 3 (and 2x LC looks a bit odd on a bike!), and most people consider PF or TH a bad plan since he's the only I5 model in your list.

 

I'm all for personalisation, but I'm not sure that it has a place in a thread about creating a tourney all-comers list...

 

oh, and btw oh Nm.... oh heLL 10pts for a LASER CANNON?? and your puting

10 points on a combi flamer? idk or +5 points for a str 7 small template over a str 4 small template...

well cat's out of the bag now...

 

Uh... what? Are you saying I should be taking lascannons instead of combi-flamers in the tacsquads in my example list?

 

What problem are you trying to solve by adding the lascannons? Do you think that two autocannons, two missile launchers, the orbital bombardment, four multimeltas, plus the LSS isn't enough anti-tank? How much difference do you think adding two lascannons will make?

 

If you feel that the combi-flamers are unnecessary vs hordes, I'd prefer to scrounge up a couple more points and get another power fist to cover an actual weakness in the list.

 

Also, if you were reading, I did suggest spending the spare points to turn one of the tacsquads into a firebase if that's how you play them. The way I play, they're very very rarely standing still, so I don't find heavies that useful - certainly not worth paying points for.

 

I don't think it's productive to get nitpicky over the specifics of lists here.

 

@spartan249:

 

Yeah, I left the minimum scouts option out because I don't see it a lot above 1500 points. At 1750, I'd expect most players to pinpoint your scouts as your weak link and immediately wipe them out. I think most armies can find a way to assassinate a few scouts without too much grief.

 

With only two and no LSS, is it even possible to win the deployment zone scenario?

 

Obviously you can just wipe me out (which, I suppose, is the fun part!), and if you roll the KP scenario then you're laughing really hard, but particularly if you roll the deployment scenario, or 4+ objectives in the other one I think you're going to find it quite tough to play for anything but a draw.

 

Otoh, if you made those Sternguard scoring, I'd like the list a lot. I've built a fair few lists around Kantor, 10 Scouts, 20+ Sternguard.

[Giga]

Why does ever Capt have to carry a freakin Relic Blade?

Because captains are close combat characters. On a bike, they become T5, and have an effective 18" charge range. With a relic blade, and their innate 4++ invulnerable save, this pretty much turns them into close-combat monsters. Not as powerful as what some other armies got, but still more then capable of taking out entire squads on their own.

 

Taking a captain, and not giving him either dual claws or a relic blade is a huge waste of points, as you effectively gimp your own expensive HQ, while for only 30 additional points you could turn him into a rather capable close-combat killer.

Why run a MoF? you only have a single dread in your Elites...

I believe spartan249 made a mistake there and forgot to mention the conversion beamer.

 

A MotF usually goes with a conversion beamer. Giving you one more high-str long-range gun to add to the army, for cheap points (a motf with beamer is like 120 points total). In the sort of army spartan249 does, this is way more useful then a chappy or a libby.

oh, and btw oh Nm.... oh heLL 10pts for a LASER CANNON?? and your puting

10 points on a combi flamer?

It depends what you want your tac squad to do. For an offensive tactical squad (the sort that assists the forward elements ie. gets into the thick of the fighting), having a combiflamer is way more important then having a lascannon.

 

In vulkan lists, a combiflamer is maybe the best option you can give to a tactical squad. Throwing two TL-ed flamer templates is gold.

[spartan249]

I had actually not put in the conversion beamer because I wanted a cheap HQ that could contribute to keeping my vehicles in tip top shape, and doing that on a 4+ roll isn't too bad, especially when you also have a plasma gun, a flamer, and a power fist to play around with. That being said, I could always take off the missile launchers and put the conversion beamer on the MotF.

 

In any case, I've been testing out the 1750 pt Dread Spam list, and it's been working as intended. With the tactical squads and razorbacks screening the dreads and the dreads popping rhinos/wave serpents/devilfish very reliably, I've hamstrung mech marines, mechdar, and mech tau and turned it into a footslogging mess without fail. 4 victories out of 5 battles so far isn't a bad tally, so I'm keeping with the configuration and going to try to find a chaos lash list to play, some more mech marines, definitely some IG players, and see how it fares against tyranids.

[minigun762]

One question that I thought I'd raise is whether or not 2 Tacticals is the best choice for a core.

 

I often feel that Scouts are underrated options that can provide alot of the same basic roles as Tacticals for a bargain price.

 

They are situationally better assault units and quite often better long range objective campers all while saving you points.

[spartan249]

I think it's because scouts can't have a dedicated transport. A missing Rhino or Razorback is a loss that some people don't like, I suppose.

[Grey Mage]

Tacticals are also more powerful in a very straitforward way- lost of bolter shots going downrange at a good blastic skill. And frankly, most peope associate marines with... well, marines in PA, not scouts. So Scouts tend to be a developed taste I think.

[Warprat]

We've definitely identified two "core" lists:-

 

 

Hats off to mowglie for his excellent post! I really liked the fully detailed account of why choices were made and the excellent summary for each. Even if you disagree with his choices... he did great.

 

 

Again mowglie, Excellent Job! Big thanks!

 

Warprat ;)

[minigun762]

I think it's because scouts can't have a dedicated transport. A missing Rhino or Razorback is a loss that some people don't like, I suppose.

 

True but thats a 2 edged sword. More Kill Points and more expensive unit for added durability and mobility.

 

 

 

Tacticals are also more powerful in a very straitforward way- lost of bolter shots going downrange at a good blastic skill.

True but their strongest between 12-24" normally. Point for point I think Scouts are better assaulters and with Snipers they have more firepower at long range.

 

It seems that a pairing of them would be the best of both worlds.

[Brother_Fatiswon]

Why does ever Capt have to carry a freakin Relic Blade?

 

If you want scoring bikes you need to take a bike captain. If you take a captain, you're best using him in CC. If you're using him in CC, point-for-point a Relic Blade beats BP/Chainsword, or against all targets with Toughness above 2, beats 2x LC against all targets with toughness above 3 (and 2x LC looks a bit odd on a bike!), and most people consider PF or TH a bad plan since he's the only I5 model in your list.

 

I'm all for personalisation, but I'm not sure that it has a place in a thread about creating a tourney all-comers list...

 

oh, and btw oh Nm.... oh heLL 10pts for a LASER CANNON?? and your puting

10 points on a combi flamer? idk or +5 points for a str 7 small template over a str 4 small template...

well cat's out of the bag now...

 

Uh... what? Are you saying I should be taking lascannons instead of combi-flamers in the tacsquads in my example list?

 

What problem are you trying to solve by adding the lascannons? Do you think that two autocannons, two missile launchers, the orbital bombardment, four multimeltas, plus the LSS isn't enough anti-tank? How much difference do you think adding two lascannons will make?

 

If you feel that the combi-flamers are unnecessary vs hordes, I'd prefer to scrounge up a couple more points and get another power fist to cover an actual weakness in the list.

 

Also, if you were reading, I did suggest spending the spare points to turn one of the tacsquads into a firebase if that's how you play them. The way I play, they're very very rarely standing still, so I don't find heavies that useful - certainly not worth paying points for.

 

I don't think it's productive to get nitpicky over the specifics of lists here.

 

in regards to why would would not want to take a Relic blade: all depends on how you intend on your Capt's Battle assignment. By spending any extra points on CCW's (TH,RB,PF,PW) your pre setting your Capt's role. that's a Players personal Choice, and while i'm not discounting the Damage output of a Capt with a relic Blade. i'm saying that the 30pt Relic blade, makes your Capt more like a One trick pony.

Same logic applies to combi flamers Missle laucher and Laser cannons in tactical squads. if your Taking ANY Heavy weapons, even if free, then your "melta,plasma,flamer/combi bolter" options become re active instead of being desivie(sp). if i have a Flamer, a combi flamer and a power fist in a squad, i'm never ever going to waste turn 1,2, or 3 standing still and shooting any down field. What i would be doing is rhino riding or running my Tactical for what ever objective or unit i wish to engage/tarpit/etc. the only reason to take "ranged heavy weapons" in a tactical is cheap movable fire support for more assualt natured units. i use my Heavies in tactiacl to ADD weight to my shooting, or if nothing is in Range of bolter/running/assualting, and going static for A turn does not effect the unit's Battle mission, then i'll take the long range pot shot but only if all those factors are in my faver. Using Heavy weapons in Tacticals is tricky but i'm rather pay 15 points, for 3 plasma cannons than 75 points to have them in a Devasator squad.

 

And to bring the whole thing full circle ... if you take ur Capt on a bike, w/ command squad on bikes, w/ 5 melta bombs (4+1) and 5 storm bolters, and you've got just about the Fastest most lethal Anti Tank unit, (add a chaplin w/bike/melta/SB for re roll MB attacks on armor for extra extra beardy behavior(oh btw it's 512 points for capt/n chap/n ComandSquad on bikes w/ 6 MB and 6 SB) that is still qutie usefull in anti horde/Tarpitting but you'd have to leave your Relic blade at home... (well you dont have to... lol) and then you dont need to take any more anti armor

[Brother_Fatiswon]

I had actually not put in the conversion beamer because I wanted a cheap HQ that could contribute to keeping my vehicles in tip top shape, and doing that on a 4+ roll isn't too bad, especially when you also have a plasma gun, a flamer, and a power fist to play around with. That being said, I could always take off the missile launchers and put the conversion beamer on the MotF.

 

??? AM i confused about the "Blessing of Onimessha" i'm not seeing how your getting repairs done on 4+ with out servitor added to your MoF

i know this should be in OFfical rules, but i'm responding to spartan's post....

i thought, and i know i could be wrong, that it was vehicile is repair on a roll of 6, and you get -1 to that (ie 5+,4+,3+...) per servitor you have, armed with a servo arm. and that the "harness" only confers the "re-roll" if failed...

i'm so confused....

[mowglie]

that's a Players personal Choice

 

I'm all in favour of people who want to equip their guys a certain way doing so. I've got captains built armed with all sorts of wacky stuff. However we're creating an all-comers tourney list here. There's no room for suboptimal.

 

It's just logic. You want scoring bikes you need a bike captain. You have a bike captain, you choose his wargear based on his strengths.

 

His strengths are his 18" assault bubble, his base 3A and especially his I5.

 

You can equip him shooty (storm bolter or combi-plasma), but bear in mind he's got a twin-linked bolter already, and his ranged options aren't very strong (e.g. no plasmagun). Paying 138 points for one stormbolter isn't very good. There are other units in your list that can shoot small arms.

 

You can equip him with meltabombs, but you're wasting his 3A. Paying 135 points for one meltabomb isn't very good. There are other units in your list that can do close-range antitank.

 

You can equip him with a Power Fist or Thunder Hammer, but you're wasting his I5. Paying 155 points for four powerfist attacks isn't too bad, but there are other units in your list that can carry power fists.

 

So you're left with PW, 2xLC, RB, all of which are passable, but against the kind of targets you'll be assaulting the relic blade is the best. There are no other units in your list can put out multiple S6 attacks at I5.

 

So that's why "all captains have Relic Blades". If your "battle strategy" for your 130-plus-point bike captain involves anything other than beating up threatening units in assault, I think you've chosen the wrong HQ for the job.

 

It's probably going to be even more important with the Tyranid codex and all those high T MCs. What initiative do tyranid MCs generally strike at?

 

It's simply that you've already spent 130 points on this model, just to make your bike squads scoring, so it's worth it to spend a few more to make him actually useful (and in fact fill a gap that you can't otherwise fill).

 

As for Blessing of the Omnissiah, you need a 5+ on 1D6 to activate it, and you get +1 because the MotF has a Servo-harness. Definitely a 4+.

[Iron_Chaos_Brute]

in regards to why would would not want to take a Relic blade: all depends on how you intend on your Capt's Battle assignment. By spending any extra points on CCW's (TH,RB,PF,PW) your pre setting your Capt's role. that's a Players personal Choice, and while i'm not discounting the Damage output of a Capt with a relic Blade. i'm saying that the 30pt Relic blade, makes your Capt more like a One trick pony.

Uh, a stock Captain is a 1-trick pony. CC-that's it. Can he shoot? No. Can he take objectives? No. Then CC is the only thing he can do. How does he do CC best? A relic blade. You can't tell me you take a 100 point Capt. and just leave him w/ BP/CCW.

[Brother_Fatiswon]

that's a Players personal Choice

 

 

As for Blessing of the Omnissiah, you need a 5+ on 1D6 to activate it, and you get +1 because the MotF has a Servo-harness. Definitely a 4+.

 

is this right? i thought, the Rules regarding the Blessing of the omnissiah, was any techmarine, with a servo arm, (you lose repair, if you take the ubercannon) can repair any AV unit, that he is in base to base contact with, on a roll of 6+, and that adding servators, with servo-arms, would lower that number by one per servator also in base to base contact(example: techmarine with harness and 3 servator with servo arms, could repair a damaged AV unit on 3+ with a re-roll if missed)and that the "harness" only allowed "re-rolls" on this. could we get some clairfication?

 

Edit: sry guys, i wanted to post this in "offical rules" and yeah, sry about that...

2nd Edit: i guess i had my head stuck in the 4th ed of the BBB. sry about that folks.

[Grey Mage]

I think it's because scouts can't have a dedicated transport. A missing Rhino or Razorback is a loss that some people don't like, I suppose.

 

True but thats a 2 edged sword. More Kill Points and more expensive unit for added durability and mobility.

 

 

 

Tacticals are also more powerful in a very straitforward way- lost of bolter shots going downrange at a good blastic skill.

True but their strongest between 12-24" normally. Point for point I think Scouts are better assaulters and with Snipers they have more firepower at long range.

 

It seems that a pairing of them would be the best of both worlds.

Of course minigun- the SM codex is almost as interdependant as the eldar codex, its just spelled out less.

[brother carc]

I'll add my vote to all those supporting the relic blade bike captain but another great upgrade is hellfire rounds. hitting on 2+, re-rolling misses and wounding on 2+ is a fantastic way to force some extra saves before a combat.

[Brother_Fatiswon]

ok, i'm at a Turnnie, and i'm playing my "all comers Crimson fist" list, and across the table i'm playing another Codex space marine chapter: during deployment, if i see a model during the HQ phase, armed with a sword with a shiney paint job. i'm NOT even going to ask if that's the capt w/a Relic Blade. BECAUSE i already know.... why because every single, conforming, non adaptive, Space marine player takes the Relic blade.

i know this, and so does every Tau, ork, Nid, Necron, IG, WH, DH, C:M,Deamon,Eldar,and Dark Eldar player. and out comes the Counter/trap/tarpiting unit, choosen with your "he's sooooooooo powerfully Armed Capt with a Relic blade" particularly in mind.

Invention is the watchword for winning against the beardy-est of players.

[mowglie]

... because every single, conforming, non adaptive, Space marine player takes the Relic blade ...

 

Meh. Every space marine bike list takes a captain on a bike with a relic blade. Does that make them conforming and non-adaptive?

 

Does the fact that they all take bike squads make them conforming and non-adaptive?

 

Does the fact that I take tactical squads and put them in rhinos make me conforming and non-adaptive?

 

You're welcome to tarpit my bike captain. He's a disposable asset. I'm not taking my him because he's "sooooooooo powerful". Actually he kind of sucks. If I didn't need him to make my bikes scoring, I probably wouldn't take him at all. (although at 2000 I'd take him + a CC-equipped command squad). As I said, it's just about spending 30 points so that your 135 point HQ isn't a total waste.

 

Invention is the watchword for winning against the beardy-est of players.

 

On the one hand, I agree. On the other:-

 

1) 40k is not sufficiently combinatorially large for the "best" combos to remain undiscovered for long.

2) Playing a poor combo unexpectedly very rarely makes up for the fact that you're playing a poor combo.

 

If your idea of a good all-comers tourney list is doing your own thing without regard to whether it's good and hoping that the surprise factor will put your opponent off enough to make up the difference then that's your prerogative, but I respectfully (yet strongly) disagree.

 

Framing the question in a more productive fashion:-

 

You're playing C:SM Bikes. You must take a bike captain (or Khan) to make them scoring.

 

How would you, Brother_Fatiswon, equip your HQ, and why.

[spartan249]

The Relic Blade is the best of both worlds, in my opinion. Strikes at initiative, so no wasted time waiting to swing. S6, which is enough to mess rear armor up good, and it wounds most infantry on 2+s. I don't know what more you could ask from a weapon for preparing for any opponents.

 

If I ever ran a biker army (which I wouldn't, but whatever...), Captain with relic blade and artificer armor is how I'd run my HQ.