Albion de Heaven Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 Hi all, yesterday while playing we got a new discussion about rules and in the specific about logan and his high king rule. My friend attached logan to a 5 multi melta long fang pack and place them all in a drop pod, the plan is give them the rentless ability so that the can arrive on turn one, disembark and fire (maybe splitting the fire among my land raiders ;)) Now what i'm questioning is: since logan have to use his ability at the beginning of the turn (i don't have exact wording here sorry) but he is not on the board (he is in reserve on a drop pod) can he land and still use his ability? I suppose he can't but we are playing as he can just because it's funny ;) (ok ok, not so funny for my raiders!) what do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 Its not entirely clear. My original instinct was no, but there was a really good post in the SW forum about this that made me change my mind. (There are several threads about this in the SW forum if you want to read the arguing.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albion de Heaven Posted November 30, 2009 Author Share Posted November 30, 2009 Its not entirely clear. My original instinct was no, but there was a really good post in the SW forum about this that made me change my mind. (There are several threads about this in the SW forum if you want to read the arguing.) Thank you, I'll go to read. I skipped SW forum and used my search-fu only in OR forum :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 Like James, I also thought no originally - but changed my mind after the discussion in the SW forum! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hfran Morkai Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 Its not entirely clear. My original instinct was no, but there was a really good post in the SW forum about this that made me change my mind. (There are several threads about this in the SW forum if you want to read the arguing.) Like James, I also thought no originally - but changed my mind after the discussion in the SW forum! :tu: Someone made a valid argument in the Wolf forum? We're doomed! It's the Wolf-Time! Yeah, there seem to be a fair few guys with heads on in there. Good, healthy discussion is always encouraged, so long as it doesn't interfere with official Wolf business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 i played a guy today who did this with heavy bolters, i didnt mind too much as he fluffed his rolls and i killed the whole squad bar a wound on logan with return fire ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty the Pyro Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 Just looking at his rule I would say no, the begining of the turn is before any actual phases and he is not on board. I will look at the wolf board and see if I change my mind, but I doubt I will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 .... if somone could post a link to the above referenced SW thread(s) I'd be grateful as I sure can't find it <_<. Cheers I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 Im looking for it... but I believe the argument boiled down to this: Logan, in reserves, is still attached to the unit and thus you can still choose a rule for them. You choose before you even know if theyll be coming into play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty the Pyro Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 Im looking for it... but I believe the argument boiled down to this: Logan, in reserves, is still attached to the unit and thus you can still choose a rule for them. You choose before you even know if theyll be coming into play. I dont quite buy that definatly not RAW, but it feals RaI enouph I would accept a roll off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 Im looking for it... but I believe the argument boiled down to this: Logan, in reserves, is still attached to the unit and thus you can still choose a rule for them. You choose before you even know if theyll be coming into play. I dont quite buy that definatly not RAW, but it feals RaI enouph I would accept a roll off Why? Can you not bolster defenses if the Techmarine or Lysander is in reserve? Is a Chaplains attached squad any less fearless because you cant fire at them in reserves? What about a Scout Bike Squad with clustermines? Ive never understood why a model had to be on the table to make these kinds of choices- its not like its a psychic test, or that the rule states it has to be on the table... so wheres the reasoning? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...p;hl=Relentless Here is a locked SW discussion about it. There's pleny more out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waaanial00 Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 Wow, heated debate in that closed thread there. Gotta love the jumping on the table to roll the dice part, laughed a lot at that. Currently there is not enough information to really rule this either way. Grey area methinks. Gotta love those dice off's get more and more of them each time a codex comes out. Wan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 Well nothing to add to that. Seems a NO to me though... as he's not on the table at the beginning of a turn at the point when he should be declaring which type of special rule he and his unit want to use... but that's just my view of course <_<. Per RAW it should be: Turn starts Logan makes up his mind at the beginning of the turn Movement phase [roll for reserves who then enter play before anything else moves] Shooting phase etc etc Not: First turn starts Movement phase [roll for and deploy reserves or auto-deploy drop pod assault reserves before anything moves] Logan & unit immediately disembarks Presumably Logan makes up his mind now when on the table?? Movement phase continues Shooting phase etc etc or: Any subsequent turn starts Movement phase [roll for and deploy reserves before anything moves] Logan & unit immediately disembarks from pod Presumably Logan makes up his mind now when on the table?? Movement phase continues Shooting phase etc etc If you think that not being on the table, as he's still in reserve, allows him to pick his special rule then you'll say the opposite. But, as most game conditions require a model [that has to make a choice or do something] to be in play at the time then at present it looks a very weak argument for a YES. Plus, by RAW he's one or two stages beyond the beginning of the turn ;). Cheers I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 Yeah.... why do they have to be on the table? Im not finding that anywhere in the book. I mean, I can understand with shooting, anything that requires a measurement, etc... because well theres no way to really do that off the board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 Yeah.... why do they have to be on the table? Im not finding that anywhere in the book. I mean, I can understand with shooting, anything that requires a measurement, etc... because well theres no way to really do that off the board. FAQs used to require being on the board for any ability that wasn't specifically mentioned as useable off the board (like an Autarch's reserve bonus). Those don't seem to exist anymore, except for things that require dice rolls (like psychic powers). As much as I think he shouldn't be able to use an ability the turn he drop pods, I can't find anything making it illegal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 Yeah.... why do they have to be on the table? Im not finding that anywhere in the book. I mean, I can understand with shooting, anything that requires a measurement, etc... because well theres no way to really do that off the board. Does he 'exist' in game terms before entering play to make his decision? or is he just name on a list? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locmac Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 Yeah.... why do they have to be on the table? Im not finding that anywhere in the book. I mean, I can understand with shooting, anything that requires a measurement, etc... because well theres no way to really do that off the board. Does he 'exist' in game terms before entering play to make his decision? or is he just name on a list? Well does Tigurius's power to re-roll reservers only happen if he's on the table? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 Yeah.... why do they have to be on the table? Im not finding that anywhere in the book. I mean, I can understand with shooting, anything that requires a measurement, etc... because well theres no way to really do that off the board. Does he 'exist' in game terms before entering play to make his decision? or is he just name on a list? Do you have chapter tactics while Lysander is in reserves? Is your IC incapable of being in a DP because it doesnt exist as its in reserves? Sorry... but that argument seems rather flippant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 Sorry... but that argument seems rather flippant. Thanks GM :). Do you have chapter tactics while Lysander is in reserves? Chapter Tactics as you know is slightly different as it conditions the whole army at list-build stage (or not if you don't choose to use it) and isn't subsequently changed nor lost if the character dies. HK is a choice that must be made by a character at on a turn-by-turn basis. Is your IC incapable of being in a DP because it doesnt exist as its in reserves? No, we know he's there, just not yet in play. The issue is – can he make a decision whilst in reserves? I can't think of any other similar precedent to draw from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locmac Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 The issue is – can he make a decision whilst in reserves? I can't think of any other similar precedent to draw from. Well if there's no precedent, and no rules stating other wise, why not just go with common sense? He's there and can make the choice. Er....well common sense if he weren't a tiny metal man.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 The issue is – can he make a decision whilst in reserves? I can't think of any other similar precedent to draw from. That I can deal with- this is something new, and we should treat it as such instead of going for a simple answer. My gut says yes, others say no, so Ill start looking for some precidents if you will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waaanial00 Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 I think this is the issue, its completely unique and as normal GW havent either thought it through well enough or given us enough information. As per usual they leave us with just enough information to form a massive line between those that think it can and those that think it cant. Given that I dont know any other unit which has a number of rules they can chose at the start of a game turn (stupid rule by the way if I am understanding it correctly, he has 4 USR which he can chose for him and his squad at the start of his turn - engage relentless mode on power armour boys :rolleyes), I dont think we will find a precident. This will set the precident in case GW do something similar in the future which is why I hope they FAQ it. Wan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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