Land Raider Question

[Commander Proteus]

Okay, I'll keep this simple, because a new army list depends on it.

 

I'm not totally sure about my rules here, which is what I need help with. The transport rules with land raiders aren't all that clear to me, because they have a transport capacity, but aren't dedicated transports, and several entries don't say that they can't be bought.

 

So, basically, what I want to do is stick a tactical squad, with a captain attached in the LR at deployment. BUT, since the tactical squad entry doesn't say LR's can be purchased for a tactical squad, I'm a bit in doubt.

 

To break this down:

 

1. Can I put a tactical squad with attached captain into a land raider when I deploy it, or do I have to deploy them separately, and embark the unit onto it in my movement phase?

2. If that is workable, does the LR still count as Heavy Support, and deploy as such?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

-Commander Proteus

[werewolf_nr]

Okay, I'll keep this simple, because a new army list depends on it.

 

I'm not totally sure about my rules here, which is what I need help with. The transport rules with land raiders aren't all that clear to me, because they have a transport capacity, but aren't dedicated transports, and several entries don't say that they can't be bought.

 

So, basically, what I want to do is stick a tactical squad, with a captain attached in the LR at deployment. BUT, since the tactical squad entry doesn't say LR's can be purchased for a tactical squad, I'm a bit in doubt.

 

To break this down:

 

1. Can I put a tactical squad with attached captain into a land raider when I deploy it, or do I have to deploy them separately, and embark the unit onto it in my movement phase?

2. If that is workable, does the LR still count as Heavy Support, and deploy as such?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

-Commander Proteus

 

1. Deploy separately, it isn't a dedicated transport in this instance

2. It still counts as a heavy support choice, they can only be dedicated transports for a squad that lists them as such (even then there is a limit)

 

PS - This probably belongs in the Rules subforum

[Grey Mage]

You can deploy them all together by declaring so when you tell what your reserves are. Its no different than having the captain join the squad. Dedicated transports just require that if a unit is in them at the start it is the one they are purchased for- other vehicles with a transport capacity like landraiders and falcons can carry any unit at the start.

 

Its still a heavy support choice, the tacs are still troops and the commander is still an HQ- they just happen to be working together.

[Shadow Captain Corveus]

Grey Mage is right, it doesn't make sense that a bunch of tac marines would enter the battlefield outside of an empty Land Raider. SMs still get tired of running!

 

Any transport can be used for any unit except if it is a dedicated transport for another unit, if you choose a dedicated transport then the squad that you bought it with has to come into the battlefield inside it, it can then disembark and any other unit may enter it provided the rules allow it (Termies).

 

Dedicated transports don't count as heavy support but seeing as a LR in this case is not one, it will count as heavy support.

[StJude]

I am afraid I have to disagree, Grey Mage is wrong.

 

The rules clearly state on page 94 under the heading "Reserves" and the sub heading "Preparing reserves", 4th paragraph that a dedicated transport can only be kept in reserve empty or containing the unit that selected it.

 

Since the tactical squad can only select a Rhino or Razorback as a dedicated transport, you will have to deploy separately and embark, even if you opt to come in as reserves.

[JamesI]

I am afraid I have to disagree, Grey Mage is wrong.

 

The rules clearly state on page 94 under the heading "Reserves" and the sub heading "Preparing reserves", 4th paragraph that a dedicated transport can only be kept in reserve empty or containing the unit that selected it.

 

Since the tactical squad can only select a Rhino or Razorback as a dedicated transport, you will have to deploy separately and embark, even if you opt to come in as reserves.

But since a Land Raider is not a dedicated transport, that doesn't apply.

[buzz_navy]

i posed this question before to both gw store employes and the gw rulez boys they said that when you field a land raider in your army as one of your heavy support choices or any vehicale with a transport cappactiy I.E. landraiders , thunderhawks,etc that is not a dedicated transport to another squad you may deploy other units inside them such as a 9 man tac squad with space marine captain attached inside a land raider they must be deployed inside the unit and if the unit is entering via deep strike or some other form of delayed deployment then the embarked units will enter play when their transport i.e. landraider or thunderhawk does and may be used normaly their after

[Dark_Templar]

I am afraid I have to disagree, Grey Mage is wrong.

 

The rules clearly state on page 94 under the heading "Reserves" and the sub heading "Preparing reserves", 4th paragraph that a dedicated transport can only be kept in reserve empty or containing the unit that selected it.

 

Since the tactical squad can only select a Rhino or Razorback as a dedicated transport, you will have to deploy separately and embark, even if you opt to come in as reserves.

But since a Land Raider is not a dedicated transport, that doesn't apply.

 

Exactly, I think what the rule is getting at is that a dedicated transport cannot come onto the table containing a squad other than the one it was purchased for.

[Grey Mage]

I am afraid I have to disagree, Grey Mage is wrong.

 

The rules clearly state on page 94 under the heading "Reserves" and the sub heading "Preparing reserves", 4th paragraph that a dedicated transport can only be kept in reserve empty or containing the unit that selected it.

 

Since the tactical squad can only select a Rhino or Razorback as a dedicated transport, you will have to deploy separately and embark, even if you opt to come in as reserves.

But since a Land Raider is not a dedicated transport, that doesn't apply.

 

Exactly, I think what the rule is getting at is that a dedicated transport cannot come onto the table containing a squad other than the one it was purchased for.

However it doesnt state anything about a non dedicated transport. Thats why I changed my answer.

 

I know Im missing something, but no one else has pointed it out yet either.

[Brother Loring]

We are having a similar debate in the BT subforum. It doesn't seem to state anywhere in the rule book about non-dedicated transports and whether troops can be embarked at the beginning of the first turn. It doesn't even mention this exact scenario in the rules for reserves. And remeber guys Commander Proteus doesn't even want to take them as reserves.

 

Some people may argue that if it doesn't mention it, you can't do it and others visa versa, but I've always taken 'The Most Important Rule' (pg 2 rulebook) as the most important rule. Simply ask your opponent and if he has an ounce of common sense I'm sure he'll say it's fine. If you think about it, a soldier is not exactly going to march up to a battle and then decide to jump in his transport at the last minute just because it is listed in the armies possession list as a tank rather than a transport vehicle.

 

I'm sorry this doesn't exactly answer your question, but as you can see from the above debates, there doesn't seem to be a rule that particularly covers your predicament. This is where 'The Most Important Rule!' comes into play!

[Seahawk]

What he wrote missed the first part. Perhaps the whole paragraph should be listed:

 

"Similarly, the player must specify if any transport vehicle in reserve is carrying any of the infantry units and/or independent characters in reserve. If they do, the unit and the transport will be rolled for together and will arrive together. Remember that a dedicated transport can only be deployed, and consequently can only be kept in reserve, either empty or transporting the unit it was selected with (plus any independent characters)."

 

As for deployment, this line implies (infers?) that you can put any legal unit in a transport at the beginning:

 

"In the same spirit, always make clear to your opponent which squads are embarked in which transport vehicle." (pg 92) Since only certain units can be in dedicated transports, the only ambiguous options involve regular transports.

 

It's not the best, but it's all we have.

[thade]

This is in the bag, so I'll summarize:

 

1. Can I put a tactical squad with attached captain into a land raider when I deploy it, or do I have to deploy them separately, and embark the unit onto it in my movement phase?

Yes, they can deploy embarked into the LR, whether they are held in reserves or not.

 

2. If that is workable, does the LR still count as Heavy Support, and deploy as such?

As the LR is not a Dedicated Transport, it is a Heavy Support choice, and so takes a HS slot as you might expect.

[Commander Proteus]

Well, I didn't intend for this to get as far as it did, but I appreciate the help from all of you!

 

-Commander Proteus

[Frosty the Pyro]

What he wrote missed the first part. Perhaps the whole paragraph should be listed:

 

"Similarly, the player must specify if any transport vehicle in reserve is carrying any of the infantry units and/or independent characters in reserve. If they do, the unit and the transport will be rolled for together and will arrive together. Remember that a dedicated transport can only be deployed, and consequently can only be kept in reserve, either empty or transporting the unit it was selected with (plus any independent characters)."

 

As for deployment, this line implies (infers?) that you can put any legal unit in a transport at the beginning:

 

"In the same spirit, always make clear to your opponent which squads are embarked in which transport vehicle." (pg 92) Since only certain units can be in dedicated transports, the only ambiguous options involve regular transports.

 

It's not the best, but it's all we have.

 

 

Indeed there is no actual rule that lets anyone at all embark in a non-dedicated transport at deployment (or in reserves). However there is some implications as seehawk points out. Also in one of the example scenarios in the Big Rule Book (I only have the AoBR rulebook so I cannot quote page) it has people starting in a non-dedicated transport.

 

It comes down to anyone that would dissalow it needs to be punched.

[Isiah]

It comes down to anyone that would dissalow it needs to be punched.

 

Note: Metaphorically speaking of course - as actual violence is not condoned by sensible gamers :)

[StJude]

I have been swayed by your cunning arguments.

 

Grey Mage, I retract my earlier statement, you are correct then. A very interesting debate and one I am glad I have been wrong on.

 

Not that the Adepticon lads are gospel, but their FAQ backs up the argument and allows for Land Raiders or other non dedicated transports to be embarked upon before deployment.

 

It's at least settled for me.

[chromedog]

(I only have the AoBR rulebook so I cannot quote page)

 

The Actual rules content pages in both the AoBR booklet and the BRB are the same.

All rules references to page XX will refer to the same XX in BOTH books.

 

The little book is just missing the fluff and background sections (which compared to even the 3rd ed one is still somewhat lacking).

[Frosty the Pyro]

It also lacks several of the scenarios, and the example I am told has a transport (non dedicated) starting with a unit embarked in it is part of that. I am aware that the crunch of the AoBR rulebook is the same as the BRB's.