Strategi:

[Niiai]

Hi, I am wondering of a good strategy in the force builder department (befor eyou actualy play them on the table.)

 

What should one do? As far as I can tell it seems it would make sence to eather specialice in cheese or to bring a very diverse force (both in armour, weaponds and mobilaty) so that when the battle start you tro to maxemise your eficiensy against the oponent to mach your units vs his. It is like a big game of rock paper scizzor.

 

Am I missing something vital?

[antique_nova]

you have sitting units RP with terminator wolf guards and a few cyclone missile launchers with grey hunter plasma squads and calvarly units for counter charge.

Or the land raider assualts backed up my scouts.

Or your typical and most effective rhino rush with long fang or long range heavy support

Or pod assualting.

 

Hope that helps, chees building? there is no such thing, i wouldn't find land raider spam or RP spam cheese building at all, i would laugh at it, say it would be fun and then beat the list up ^^, with my own :D.

 

thanks

antique_nova

[DV8]

Hi, I am wondering of a good strategy in the force builder department (befor eyou actualy play them on the table.)

 

What should one do? As far as I can tell it seems it would make sence to eather specialice in cheese or to bring a very diverse force (both in armour, weaponds and mobilaty) so that when the battle start you tro to maxemise your eficiensy against the oponent to mach your units vs his. It is like a big game of rock paper scizzor.

 

Am I missing something vital?

 

Yea. Actual skill.

 

DISCLAIMER: I mean no insult against any particular person with what I am about to say/type/put forth below. If you don't think you can take a truthful, personal opinion, then ignore my post entirely please. You have been warned.

 

 

 

I feel sorry for people who play the so-called "cheesy" army builds out there (and I use the vernacular quite loosely). Yes they are within the rules, I don't deny a person's right to build/use said army. But they're shooting themselves in the foot, really.

 

There are three ways to build a list: "cheese it", diversify, and specialize, and I will cover the broad strokes of the three in turn:

 

+ Cheesing it +

Well it's really a matter of short term gain, long term loss. Yes you win games. You win them fast, with rock-solid combinations from the Codices. But does your skill improve as a player? What'll happen if you come up against situations or armies that your cheesy list simply can't beat? What happens when a new Codex comes out that has the potential for even more cheese than yours, or heaven forbid, pulls the same kind of cheese you do, but does it better/cheaper/faster/more efficiently?

 

I have found people who play cheesy lists, or who hunt or ask for cheesy lists/combos, lack any real tactical/strategic skill as a player. They're simply looking for the win-at-all costs, "I want to win now and not improve as an actual player." They're typically also the bandwagoners who jump from shiny new Codex to shiny new Codex, and are the ones who will decry cheese when new, more powerful books come out. These are also the players who tailor lists, building an army specifically to beat another opponent (and where's the skill in that? You've just taken a bigger rock to counter your opponent's tinier rock). Very few true veteran players fall into this category.

 

 

+ Diversify +

The mindset behind this is simple. Build the most balanced, take-all-comers list you can possibly make, that may not win every situation in a land-slide, but has the capability to handle most every situation and stand a decent chance of emerging victorious. It means taking a combination of units that mesh well together, balances its own weaknesses, and relies almost entirely on the skill of the player to win, and not the army.

 

This category is where true veteran players arise from because it teaches them to play the game with skill, and dare I use the word, honor. They learn tactics and strategy that are not unit specific, without relying on powerful steam-roller combinations. These are players who can take the concepts they've learned from playing one army, and apply it to any army they choose to build, taking the concepts and lessons they've learned from previous games to apply them to future games.

 

A diversified list may not necessarily win all its games (call it bad luck, call it fate, whatever), but playing a diversified list makes you a better player. Period.

 

 

+ Specialize +

This is a small niche wherein a player will focus on a particular aspect, or play a limited army, deliberately limiting themselves in various aspects in order to play a more challenging, or sometimes "fluffy" army. Some examples include Deathwing, Ravenwing, or even something more mundane like an all-Blood Claws army. It places more focus on a particular aspect of the game and typically requires a much more tactical mindset, using powerful support units to try and counter-balance the inherent weaknesses because of the aspect the player has chosen to specialize in.

 

There is no reason a specialized army cannot be balanced, it simply places the focus on a particular aspect of the game and specialized lists will tend to do better in situations that favor it's specialty, and will suffer in situations that do not. These tend to be more "for fun" armies, and most of them (not all of them) tend not to be ultra-competitive. Not to say they can't, but it's not often, or it requires a lot of practice. Players who have played diversified lists and are looking for a unique challenge or to mix things up, tend to fall into this category.

 

 

DV8

[Natanael]

Great stuff, DV8.

 

I'd recommend you to read Warp Angels "Killhammer"-stuff here on B&C. They are great guidelines/strategy articles that made my understanding of the game as a whole a lot better. Also helps with a lot of marine tactics and forces you to think and reason for yourself.

 

Just search for Warp Angel and you'll find the article-links in his signature.

 

- Natanael

[Prophecy]

As always, DV8 hits it on the noggin. I'm personally a big fan of foot-slogging termies under the command of Logan. Honestly not the most effective build we can field, but quite fun. I got my ass handed to me by necrons not too long ago, but it was a damn good game. That being said, I have something like 8 lists that I play at various times. The best advice is what you've heard many times before. Start small, with two troops and an HQ or two, and add units you find interesting. If you don't like them, add something else. You'll find what works for you and your playstyle.

 

If you're bored though, cav lists are hilariously fun.

[Jonny Wolf]

@ DV8 - you hurt my feeling. I'm going to cry myself to sleep tonight. :D

 

sincerely, well put. Very well put indeed.

[Valerian]

Good stuff DV8; well said.

 

To the OP, I've got a guide to building armies on here somewhere, just search for "Valerian's Guide" and it should pop up in there somewhere. Essentially, here is a summary of my formula: figure out what tasks/missions you need to accomplish in a battle, buy units that are geared to accomplish those tasks, then upgrade them only with the options necessary to help with that task. Then, in the actual battle, try your best to use each unit for the role it was intended for.

 

There is a lot in the guide so look there first.

 

Valerian (one of those just for fun "specialist" army players that DV8 mentioned).

[Warhorse47]

DV8, excellent and clear. Well done!

[bravelybravesirrobin]

For space wolves building a list isn't all that hard but there are a lot of options that are situational, units that work well with some builds and don't with others,etc.

 

Generally with the exception of a wolfwing army you probably want to look at having the following

 

3 or 4 flexibly equipped Grey Hunter packs

 

some method of moving them (rhinos, pods or foot slogging)

 

1 or more big focal killy units (thudnercav, bloodclaws, ragnar and co, wolfguard)

 

1 or more HQ's that will support and improve either the big killy unit or your core troops (i.e. Njal works well for footsloggers, a wolf lord on a thunderwolf does wonders for thundercav, etc)

 

then you start adding support stuff, this generally consists of identifying all the various kinds of enemies you are likely to face in 40k and looking to see if you have a counter for them. If you don't then you add a support unit to provide that counter.

 

The main enemies you will face are

 

MEQ - marine equivalent units i.e. T4 and a 3+ save

 

TEQ - Terminator equivalent units i.e. T4 and 2+ or T5 and 3+ basically a hard unit

 

GEQ - Guard equivalent units i.e. T3 and a 5+ or worse save, also known as "horde"

 

Vehicles - usually split into light (12 or less) and heavy (13 or more)

 

Monstrous Creatures

 

Powerful IC's

 

 

If you have something that can kill all of these in your army you have a decent army (and frankly if you have 4 GH packs with a powerfist and 1-2 meltaguns you have something that can kill all of these even if it isn't the most effective option)

 

 

After that you start identifying common enemy units not absed on how to kill them but how they perform on the table top and if you have a counter i.e. how do you take out an assault unit better than our own? Try adding a vindicator or a really tough assault unit. What about a devastator squad? Try scouts or a drop pod dread.

 

so briefly

3 - 4 flexible troops

work out how they'll move

HQ

big killy unit (this is optional but for me how wolves were designed)

start adding counters to shore up potential weaknesses in your basic build.

[JCarter]

Id like to add to bravelybravesirr's post. Once you have a selection that can do the things he suggests, give some thought to the basic games in the BRB. There are 9 combos of mission and deployment. From various fora, you can come up with army lists for opponents. For each of the nine combos, select an army (e.g., CSM) and ask yourself how you would deploy how you would plan to win and how you would counter possible moves from your opponents. This can all be done with slips of paper on a table before spending a lot. You will really benefit from the exercise.