best way for AV14 killing

[Ullr Direfang]

earthen you have a good point on every things. as i said, there are ways in which everything isn't 100% the best. but raider rush isn't 100% what is being discussed. i believe that Leman Russ tank variants are what is being looked at mostly at the moment. i am sure that people anywhere have to expect land raiders as well, so you your point is still valid.

[SamaNagol]

You are a problem person. Quick to say why things won't work.

 

Firstly, against Monoliths the ONLY thing that can penetrate them are Lascannon and Thunderwolf Cavalry with THammers. Your Meltabombs are useless.

 

Secondly, if you are talking about Leman Russes then Land Speeders are unequivocally your best solution. You take 2 of them with 2 MMs. Separate them into 2 FA slot choices so as to provide more targets to shoot at. Use them as a vanguard to attack round the side. If your opponent focusses most of their fire on killing them both, which they would need to because you will be advancing them behind cover to get a 4+ save against any shots, that means the rest of your army can happily roll forwards without worrying about getting shot to bits. A BRILLIANT combination is 2 Land Speeders and a Land Raider Crusader accompanied by Razorbacks or Rhinos which would offer a huge number of legitimate targets and all can provide tank busting in one way or another (multi meltas or mounted grey hunters with Meltaguns). This large number of targets gives your opponent a very tough choice.

 

You look at the Speeders on their own and see low armour, but they are 80 points only for something that can very easily reduce a 200pt tank to a slag heap. They are superb value, and seeing as Swift Claws are poor value with their BS3, they are still the best option for Anti Tank over all other options. And when used with other legitimate threats they do a great job. Remember if you actually get across the board within charge range of Guard, they will lose. You have at least 3 attacks on the charge with everything.

 

As for Monoliths, ignore them and go for phase out as soon as possible. The speeders do a nice job of sniping those Heavy Destroyers.

[Skalver]

Predator with twin-linked lascannon + side sponson lascannons: 165 points.

 

If you really, really want to pop that AV 14 though you can't beat a vindicator. 125 points with siege shield. S10 and roll 2 dice picking the highest for armor penetration makes it your most reliable chance at popping AV 14.

[Jonny Wolf]

I think no matter what we say, our good brother Antique is going tell us we're wrong.

[Grey Mage]

2 Landspeeders, squadronned, each with 2x MM- 160pts.

 

You want that leman russ dead?

 

Done.

[WG Vrox]

I agree there is no perfect answer as this is one area that SW tend to suffer in. No infiltrating bikers, not Scout Storm, no cheap/effective AB with MM. Our only answer is easy though, in any good list you need redundancy so 2 Speeders with MM/HF multi roll for horde armies, 1 Vindicator, MG within your GH & WG squads, Scouts and your Long Fangs, even keeping it stunned hurts the LR.

 

Scouts are a terrible option. Any av 14 you see is going to be moving forward in your face. Scouts in reserve will arrive too late, behind enemy lines is useless when the LR is driving toward you.

 

Don't get a static mindset on how to use wolf scouts. BEL is very nice option for us but as we all know at times they don't pay off. Though it's not always an option on a table, infiltrating out of sight, but in the path a LR plans to take has worked out well for me in the past. Your opponent either has to deal with them taking time to assault, ignore them and hope the are ineffective or go around them on their way to their objective which gives you more time to adjust.

 

Vrox

[Gentlemanloser]

BEL also allows you to choose any table edge.

 

So bring them in on one side, level to the movement of the Tank/s in question.

 

Unless they're running down the centre of the Board, but you could always try to channel your opponent to a flank.

 

You don't have to bring on your BEL scouts on your opponent board edge...

[TiguriusX]

Or use an existing rune priest in your army

 

Use the existing Logan in your army (:)) and attach him to a Long Fang Squad with as many Lascannons as you can afford with 160 points.

 

Or add Logan to a TWC Unit with a S10 TH.

 

Or use an existing LR and add some WG Terminators with Chain Fists. ;)

 

I don't have logan, and all your other options are wayyy to expensive. lacannons aren't reliable.

 

 

I think your request is made difficult b/c we don't see your entire army. Some units work better in synergy with other units. As a stand alone concept I think Speeders w/2xMM is the highest chance of success for blasting an AV14. It may be a suicide mission but that is a win for you if it succeeds.

 

Currently I think Logan + LF provides the highest chance of penetrating AV14...but it is a high price to pay for that.

At a minimum I think 3xML + 2xLC + Logan provides a solid AV unit. That is 445pts but you get the strongest ranged AV possible...S10 on the lascannons and S9 on the krak missiles.

 

S10 (if it hits) gives a 50% chance of glancing AV14 and 33% chance of penetrating (if you need it dead quick you have to penetrate the armor).

 

I don't think you need more than 2xLC b/c you should be able to remove the AV14 threat quickly and want the versatility that MLs provide against hordes.

 

If you want to rely on mass lascannons and play the odds w/o Logan and the 3xML 2xLC you can buy:

215-(6)LF w/ 5xLC

215-(6)LF w/ 5xLC

With 15 points to spare on the rest of your army

 

You can play the odds or you can play overkill.

 

I am leaning towards overkill and Logan right now. I don't use a specific HQ as is so using Logan in this manner doesn't bother me. I was thinking about various army lists at work (I can't post from work) and I will post in your army thread with this same topic to demonstrate more details.

[earthen]

@ Ullr Direfang - ah, yes, i do understand that russ varinants are being considered, and in that case, scouts may very well be handy. However, if you're bringing MM antitank, why not spend points on a unit that can handle it all equally well, as opposed to a unit thats great vs battle cannons but not so hot against raiders? Reserved scouts let battle cannons fire though, you need to at least stun them early. Thank you for supporting my points as well ;)

 

@ Samanagol - you would bother killing monoliths? phase out man, id ignore monoliths entirely. 27 lascannon shots to down a monolith?? thats a good chunk of the way towards phaseout. The only time id worry about monoliths is in 3 or less obj scenarios where your opponent could easily park a mono on every objective and spam enough warriors to avoid phaseout :X

[bravelybravesirrobin]

Soooo to recap, incase you don't want to read the text:

 

Option 1

1x Iron priest

1x Bike

1x Melta bombs

4x Cyberwolf

 

Option 2

1x Wolf Guard Battle Leader

1x Jump Pack

1x Thunder Hammer

1x Melta bomb ( Optional )

1x Combi-melta ( Optional )

Plus how many fenrisan wolves that you can fit in with a cyber wolf and saga of the wolfen.

 

Option 3

Scouts

plasma pistols

melta guns

Mark of the Wulfen ( MotW )

+

Wolf Guard

1x combi-melta

1x melta bombs

1x MotW

 

Option 4

1x Rune priest ( that is already in your army )

1x Jump Pack

1x Melta bomb ( Optional )

1x Combi-melta ( Optional )

Plus how many fenrisan wolves that you can fit in with a cyber wolf and saga of the wolfen.

 

Right lets have a look at these and then I'll let you know what 10 years of gaming has determined to be the best way to bust tanks.

 

Iron Priest - first off he needs a t-wolf not a bike or he's stuck moving at 6" a turn because the wolves can't move faster than that. This gives him either 9 or 10 (FAQ pending) attacks to try and bust open a tank. adn why would you bother with the 1 attack meltabombs when you have 4 T-hammer attacks at str 9/10 and a servo arm? A waste of 5 pts.

 

Good: That's a lot of high strength attacks for a small price.

Bad: Fragile unit for the pts, slower than many other options we have, can't assault through an infantry screen (so guard, which is the army we're theoretically fighting right, are laughing at him as they always use infantry to screen russes)

 

 

WGBL: Again if he takes the wolves the JP is pointless and you don't want the meltabomb if you already have the thunderhammer. This guy is fragile as hell, expensive as hell, has a massive target painted on his head. Are you suggesting running him with the wolves until he pops out? That might work but then you're slow as hell too and can't engage that tank until about turn 3. Plenty of time for him to smoke your wolves.

 

Good: Thunder Hammer, mobile when on his own, can jump over skirmish screens if they leave a gap

Bad: Expensive, fragile, slow if with a bodyguard, not actually all that great a tankbuster, can still be foiled by a skirmish screen

 

Scouts: I like scouts but you can't use scouts as your only option, principaly because their unreliable. But backed up by other anti-tank choices they work well and have a place in a decent army. I wouldn't give the wolfguard MotW though but rather a powerfist equivalent which is what scouts really lack.

 

Good: Pretty guaranteed to kill a tank if they do hit. Flexible and can be used in many different ways and against different units. Cheap.

Bad: Fragile. BEL is unreliable.

 

Rune Priest: all the same issues as the WGBL except now you're wasting the potential of your rune priest to be casting spells and trying to use a non-cc character in a role he is ill-suited for.

 

Good: ...

Bad: Expensive, fragile, slow if with a bodyguard, not actually all that great a tankbuster, can still be foiled by a skirmish screen, wasting the potential of a unit in a role it is ill designed for

 

 

Now lets look at some of the options I would use that you disregarded

 

Dreadnought with a Multi-Melta in a Drop Pod.

 

Through manipulation of drop pod assault this guy lands turn 1, guaranteed with no way to stop him. Thanks to inertial guidance system and an average scatter you can deploy agressively to be sure that you land in melta range. Then you get to pop one shot off to try and reduce a nasty enemy tank to slag. Now that shot could miss and therein lies the risk but you could make him a venerable to reduce that risk a lot. After his shot you have a dreadnought in your enemy's backfield, which is never a bad thing and you can use it to wreck other tanks or units back there. He is pretty much forced to deal with it somehow. You argue that the Dread is almost certainl dead but it a) depends on what army your opponent is using :P depends on terrain and c) drawing attention away from the rest of your army can be very good if the rest of your army is a mechanised force bearing down on him and the arrival of 2 dreads has strained his anti-tank to the point that the rhinos get through.

 

Oh and if the rets oif your force is drop podding you obviously want these above anything else.

 

Good: Guaranteed to get its shot off. Its a dread, an amazing vehicle with many uses after that initial shot

Bad: Pricy for a suicide unit. That shot may miss.

 

 

Land speeders mounting multi-meltas, either twin or heavy flamer and multi-melta for duality.

 

Much like the dread but usually with a delay until turn 2. 2 melta shots is more likely to slag a tank than anything else and other than shooting the speeder down there is no way to stop it. Fragile though they may be speeders can use mobility, skimmers moving fast and terrain to try and avoid enemy return fire. With a bit of skill it isn't hard at all to reliably get into melta-range by turn 2, at which point dead tanks ensue. After that who cares. And their dirt cheap. Oh and they detract fire from your rhinos too.

 

Good: Reliably get into range by turn 2. 2 melta shots. Dirt cheap.

Bad: Fragile.

 

 

There are other options (skyclaws and swiftclaws, wolf guard) that I won't comment on and obviously your GH packs should have meltaguns as a backup as well burt for me I favour some combination of dreads, scouts and speeders backed up by GH meltaguns and maybe long fangs ffor dealing with light tanks as the basis of the anti-tank in my army.

[ChaosPhoenix]

You are a problem person. Quick to say why things won't work.

 

Thats pretty much what I wanted to say. There is nothing that will always work. If there was a ultimately perfect rock-paper-scissor-system, everyone would have the same units (even more than now) or the people would start throwing only scissors at eachother.

 

It's always "won't work", "too fragile", "too expensive". For a victory, you need to pick up the fight, but you're capitulating before the war has even started. Get a grip on yourself, trust your units and learn to command them.

 

I'm someone who believes that some armies are better than others, codex creep in a way. I believe some units are useless. I believe warhammer isn't 100% fair so to say. But giving up, doesn't win any battle.

[Spacefrisian]

If we are talking Leman Russ tanks here than even 100 points might do the trick. A Runepriest with Living Lightning can target the side armour with some good possitioning.

[antique_nova]

I think no matter what we say, our good brother Antique is going tell us we're wrong.

Not all the time, many of you have posted ideas that i hadn't taken in considered like the TW iron priest and the speeders option, these things i had overlooked. anyone can overlook the easily found options. However, you may be surprised or not but my final decision has been from a suggestion that someone posted up earlier.

 

Scouts are a terrible option. Any av 14 you see is going to be moving forward in your face. Scouts in reserve will arrive too late, behind enemy lines is useless when the LR is driving towards you.

 

Speeders are NOT vulnerable to outflankers, they should have their job done by turn 2.

 

You can also deepstrike your speeders near an opponent, ensuring you get an opening shot.

 

Bottom line, Melta is the only reliable way to toast AV14. Youre not going to kill it with melta bombs, a single combi melta or a str 10 PF, because by the time your ironpriest, rune priest, W.E. Gets to it, the landraider will have done its job, you will get assaulted, and you will give your opponent a D6 move toward your lines.

Hell yes they are, your also not having consistent results with land speeders DS, look at this way. you have the same problem as scouts. you can't pin down what exact turns that they will come on. So they are mobile scouts with better armour and mobility. better at anti-tank too, but you can't garantee your shots will hit and that your going to be witin that 12 inch range, so they have a chance of being speeders with krak missiles, excep they have a slim chance of killing AV14 on glancing over a missile launcher.

 

So recap of problems with LS:

Low armour

Unreliable DS turn results

Unreliable DS positioning

 

bravelybravesirrobin:

Became too smart, there was a more up to date set of options, but nice points.

 

TiguriusX

If you want to spend a 3rd of your army for such a roll, considered yourself DS, flanked and dead. almost 500 points for a mobile heavy support squad of 7 guys, one tough guy who can't take the wounds unless there are more than 6 wounds inflicted on the squad. for a lascannon to move with it's 48 inche range and missile launchers. Yes mobility is important but if your moving to see something round the corner. speeders would have done a much better job.

But your ideas are not to be dismissed in logan lists, it doesn't help to solve my problem at all.

 

Gentlemenloser:

Yes but they have these problems:

Poor armour

Unreliable DS turn results

Unreliable DS positioning

Plus only one melta gun option........even then you can have so many melta bombs and the cost racks up fast for a unit doing one job and getting creamed. speeders with MM work better.

 

Because they are tougher, get more AV14 weaponary too. more mobile and in a way, more reliable.

 

WG Vrox:

Has the right mind set, but not for his selection of anti-AV14. apart from speeders, but they will also be bummed for their low armour and unreliable DS.

 

 

Preds are way too expensive and they are an all eggs in one basket.

 

SamaNagol:

Is right, melta weapons are useless against monoliths, but the idea of them is to ignore them. But i like to be able to kill them as well. Lascannons are unreliable where thunder hammers aren't.

 

Ok, so you all want to know what i picked? I bet you do :D

I went over the points limit i set, by 10 points. but it was worth it:

 

And the winner was!........!........

 

Grey Mage due to his awesomeness! lol, jokes, but he's a good option ^^.

 

The real winner:

1x Iron Priest

1x Thunderhammer

1x Servo-arm

1x TW mount

1x Wolftooth necklace

1x Wolf tail talismen

- retinue -

4x Cyberwolf

170 points

 

Pros: Good blanket, always hits on 3 in CC, charge range 19-24 inches. S10 attacks ( 3 normal, but 4 on charge ) Good proection against psyhic powers with runic armour and wolf tail talismen.

 

Cons: Tad expensive for 10 points more, i get better protection of a +3 save not +4 and my enemy has less models to see and shoot. Less close combat punch power, but if you want TWC, your not hitting AV14 you want terminator rets and large squads to kill.

 

Overall. Pros outwight cons, and my cyberwolfs should be smaller and harder to see despite them being more models and the bases are less, so the model LOS con isn't real.

 

Feel free to carry on discussing anti-AV14 without my points restrictions.

 

My list:( Link below ) Post 62

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...p;#entry2202385

thanks

antique_nova

[Spacefrisian]

Knock on screen to make a notice.

 

Even though wolftooth lets you hit on a 3+ that wont work on vehicles who have moved 12" as they dont have a Weaponskill. Epic fail.

[antique_nova]

what AV14 tank is going to move 12 inches and forfiet their shooting? Plus i get for chances to hit, hittingg on 3s or not on the charge. Seems like your comment is an epic fail.

thanks

antique_nova

[Grey Mage]

what AV14 tank is going to move 12 inches and forfiet their shooting? Plus i get for chances to hit, hittingg on 3s or not on the charge. Seems like your comment is an epic fail.

thanks

antique_nova

That would be leman russ' as they can still fire their turrets, modern landraidrs who can use power of the machine spirit to fire a weapon at 12, and I believe monoliths aswell.

 

Wich is most of the AV 14 ever seen on a table.

 

Oh- and titans <_<.

[TiguriusX]

TiguriusX

If you want to spend a 3rd of your army for such a roll, considered yourself DS, flanked and dead. almost 500 points for a mobile heavy support squad of 7 guys, one tough guy who can't take the wounds unless there are more than 6 wounds inflicted on the squad. for a lascannon to move with it's 48 inche range and missile launchers. Yes mobility is important but if your moving to see something round the corner. speeders would have done a much better job.

But your ideas are not to be dismissed in logan lists, it doesn't help to solve my problem at all.

 

That was why I said synergy of units is more important.

 

In a vacuum this unit looks expensive.

 

In a common army the cost is far less.

 

Most armies already include a LF pack.

Most armies already include a unit of WG as pack leaders.

Most armies already include a WG w/ CML added to LF.

Some armies use a minimum size GH in a vehicle as rear objective sitters.

 

So this combination:

Logan

6-LF 3xML 2xLC

5-WG 1xTDA+CML + vehicle

(The WG that remain after pack leaders have been assigned become a troop unit...they hide in your vehicle and objective sit. You need a minimum of 3 WG to do this after pack leaders have been assigned)

 

vs.

6-LF 5xML

5-WG 1xTDA+CML + vehicle

5-GH + vehicle

 

 

230pt DIFFERENCE...not 1/3 of any army by adding Logan and using the left over WG as your rear objective sitter.

If you use Logan to replace your required HQ the points required for this combo are not as big as you think. You are down to the 130 point range using a 100pt hero as an example. 130 points for the best AV14 destroyer at 48" range that any SM can provide.

 

The reason I keep discussing Logan + LC is the S10 48" punch it gives you.

S10 AV is basically a melta gun with 2D6.

S10 is better v. Armor 11 (auto-glance and 5/6 chance of penetrating) v. (35/36 chance of glance and 33/36 chance of penetrating)

S10 is slightly worse v. Armor 14 (50% chance of glance and 2/6 chance of penetrating) v. (26/36 chance of glance and 21/36 chance of penetrating)

 

The benefit is you can do it at 48" and you have 5 more S9 missiles to play the odds

 

As for being vulnerable to DS/Flank:

1) You have a unit of 8 models....2 of which are in TDA. Logan also has eternal warrior and belt of russ so he should take whatever nasty stuff comes first. He has 3 wounds so it doesn't matter if he takes a shot. After that you allocate based on the weapon. WG has TDA 2+ save. If you need to remove units start with the 3xML.

2) No flanker will hit you before turn 2 at the earliest. Odds are your unit has done the job and removed AV14 by then. Furthermore, if your LF are in a good spot they can most likely destroy the flankers before they come close enough to pose a real danger. Wolf scouts coming in the back board edge are your biggest threat

3) Any DS that can destroy your LF would have destroyed any other AV combo as well. If you are now agreeing that DS provides a threat you should re-consider the DP Dread with MM. It is an all or nothing move but it is the highest chance for destroying AV14 without fear of losing the unit.

4) If your greatest fear for the LF super unit is DS/Flank you can add your own DP to the unit and reconfigure with MM b/c the 6LF pack + Logan and WG in TDA will fit. This also gets Logan near the front lines.

 

Finally...Logan is NOT in this LF unit to provide RELENTLESS. He is providing TANK HUNTER. If there are no tanks then sure...use relentless and advance up the board as you see fit.

 

Let us know how the Iron Priest works out. I thought you would avoid a melee unit b/c of the time it takes to reach the target

[the jeske]

brutal mage brutal :) .As others said speeders do ok [if only SW had attack bikes like they did in the test version of the dex] , even normal GH packs both the 2 melt set up and the melta+combi melta one the 9 man squads use. not to mention that drop dreads arent as suicide as people like to think . first off all no one says you have to open the pod [so LoC blocking , so at worse you get +4 cover ] and as every sw should use the old bjorn body[smaller then normal dreads] its a win win situation.

 

Good blanket, always hits on 3 in CC,

well only not against tank without WS. so against all av14 that are not titans .

[antique_nova]

what AV14 tank is going to move 12 inches and forfiet their shooting? Plus i get for chances to hit, hittingg on 3s or not on the charge. Seems like your comment is an epic fail.

thanks

antique_nova

That would be leman russ' as they can still fire their turrets, modern landraidrs who can use power of the machine spirit to fire a weapon at 12, and I believe monoliths aswell.

 

Wich is most of the AV 14 ever seen on a table.

 

Oh- and titans :).

They can't move 12 inches and shoot everything. I think it's 6, but even then, they move 6 +D6 inches ^^. Monoliths, not so sure. but if they move their monolith forward 12 then i have thunderhammers. alot of them :). Land raiders....i'll give you that one ^^. But still that's one shot.

 

lol, titans XD

 

TiguriusX:

I mean the unit as a whole, i didn't take into account of adding logan etc onto existing units.

Erm Tigurius. Krak missiles are S8 and lascannons are S9..............( Read second to last quote, before commenting on this paragraph )

 

What is better at killing MCs? logan or jotw? With Jotww has more chances than logan and it doesn't need LOS, but Jotww doesn't specifiy that you need a target, even when it's a psyhic shooting attack. It says draw a line from the RP not select a target.

 

(The WG that remain after pack leaders have been assigned become a troop unit...they hide in your vehicle and objective sit. You need a minimum of 3 WG to do this after pack leaders have been assigned)

That is a waste of points for an objective sitting squad. balanced lists has every unit being able to do something constructive per turn or one turn in the game. In annihilation games that unit would be mehhh. So it would be points wasted and kill points waste in those annihilation missions.

 

1) You have a unit of 8 models....2 of which are in TDA. Logan also has eternal warrior and belt of russ so he should take whatever nasty stuff comes first. He has 3 wounds so it doesn't matter if he takes a shot. After that you allocate based on the weapon. WG has TDA 2+ save. If you need to remove units start with the 3xML.

Ok, but do the TDA make up the majority of the unit? Not really so plasma death will kill your marines not TDA, of chaos breath etc. Marbo etc.

 

2) No flanker will hit you before turn 2 at the earliest. Odds are your unit has done the job and removed AV14 by then. Furthermore, if your LF are in a good spot they can most likely destroy the flankers before they come close enough to pose a real danger. Wolf scouts coming in the back board edge are your biggest threat

You make a good point here, two good points. but i want my missile launcher LF units for popping anything not AV14. I like to keep my anti-AV14 units and non anti-AV14 units seperate you see. Even with fire control to consider. I like them far apart so it prevents an all eggs in one basket situation.

 

3) Any DS that can destroy your LF would have destroyed any other AV combo as well. If you are now agreeing that DS provides a threat you should re-consider the DP Dread with MM. It is an all or nothing move but it is the highest chance for destroying AV14 without fear of losing the unit.

It offers easy kill points for meltas, plasma, autocannons etc. Your deepstriking in with no support. Even with wolf cavalry, you opponent will most likely shoot the dread and pod with anti-tank and shoot the wolves with everything else. Draw in your TWC or whatever you want and select different targets weith their anti-tank and anti-AP weaponary after killing the dread and pod.

 

4) If your greatest fear for the LF super unit is DS/Flank you can add your own DP to the unit and reconfigure with MM b/c the 6LF pack + Logan and WG in TDA will fit. This also gets Logan near the front lines.

Not my greatest fear. my fear is all eggs in one basket.

 

Finally...Logan is NOT in this LF unit to provide RELENTLESS. He is providing TANK HUNTER. If there are no tanks then sure...use relentless and advance up the board as you see fit.

Hmm tank hunter. That adds plus one to the damage table doesn't it?

 

Let us know how the Iron Priest works out. I thought you would avoid a melee unit b/c of the time it takes to reach the target

Well he's on a giant wolf and he has a charge range of 19-24 inches. he can reach literally anything, however. I will bide my time if they place fodder units infront of their AV14 tanks. and hunt something else.

 

thanks

antique_nova

[ChaosPhoenix]

what AV14 tank is going to move 12 inches and forfiet their shooting? Plus i get for chances to hit, hittingg on 3s or not on the charge. Seems like your comment is an epic fail.

thanks

antique_nova

 

As Grey Mage said, the Leman Russ can shoot and a Machine Spirit in a Land Raider would help too.

[antique_nova]

raiders would only be able to shoot one weapon and russes move 6 inches +D6. So 12 inch movement for russes is stuck at about 16% chance. The same chance that a missile launcher can glance an AV14 tank, should it hit the target first.

thanks

antique_nova

[TiguriusX]

p.76

Tank Hunter

 

+1 to armor penetration roll

 

i.e. +1 to weapon strength

 

S8 krak becomes s9

s9 LC becomes s10

 

I would love to reply and discuss this in detail but I need to leave for work and can't post there.

 

You have counter points to the Logan+LF I disagree with. The main deterrent to this tactic is points. The main benefit is flexibility.

WG won't be a liability in annihilation b/c they can be moved to unitsas pack leaders letting you "escape" a weak rear objective sitter.

 

Lots more to say but too little time.

 

Catch you later!

[stinkenheim]

russes cannot move 12" and shoot everything. they can move 6 and fire everything. only fast vehicles are allowed to fire any weapons after moving 12" (and LRs due to POTMS).

 

p48 C:IG 'A leman russ that moved atcombat speed or remained stationary can fire its turret weapon in addition to any other weapons it is usually allowed to fire (even if the turret weapon is ordnance!).

 

as stated WTN do not work against things without a ws.

 

any model with a powerfist will destroy a leman russ in combat. from the soubnds of it you are only considering shooting attacks, in which case melta is the best bet but you will have to sacrifce a turn ior two of shooting to get those shots away. rathter than IP on TW i would suggest Swiftclaw biker with power fist. they come with krak grenades, are Str 8 so only slightly less chance oif getting a pen on the armour roll and are able to move quicker and get a cover save if they turbo boost. plsu they are arguably a better antio infantry choice so not designed for one specific role (twin linked bolters, 2 close combat weapons, better save than wolves).

 

Tank hunter allows you to add 1 to your armour penetration roll, effectively making the weapons strength one higher than normal

 

and don't start about JOTWW. It has been discussed several times as to whether LOS/target is needed so whilst you may feel it has more benefits vs MC it may well change with the release of an FAQ :)

i personally wouldn't rely on it being amazing against most armies as it has a relatively small area of effect, requires your rune priest (fragile and relatively poor CC fighter) to be within charge range of fast moving units, against the majority of MC their I is decent so will only work half the time and also you run the risk of taking a perils of the warp attack.

 

Logan has nothing which would make him an amazing addition vs MC. tank hunters obviously does nothing. most MC are combat orientated so relentless is pointless if the unit is set up properly. preferred enemy is about the only decent ability but doesn't help you wound the creatures.

 

in my opinion, a squad of Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield equiped terminators is the best bet. able to take on anything with a high chance of survivng (either from shooting or cc), they will be able to wound the creatures easily and then stun them so you are gurantedd a second round of attacks. they are capable of dealing with vehicles, monstrous creatures and any other unit they get pitted against so are not as much of a one trick pony.

[antique_nova]

infortunately out terminator SS and TH guys cost a fortune.........I am not considering just shooting.

 

Jotww. please if you read the entry well enough. It says draw a line 24 inches away from the rune priest. It doesn't precify a target does it? All other spells say so.

 

Murderous hurricane. Pick a unit

Living lightning. Pick a unit.

 

If you want to carry this arugment about Jotww PM me.

 

Thunderhammers work well against MC, as my cyberwolfs act as the blanket. So even DPs can be killed by this guy. The WTN not being able to help doesn't affect me that much.

 

I have standard attacks without charging. 3 S10 attacks + 1 S8 I1 attack from the servo arm.

 

Plus one question. Does the servo-arm attack count as a special weapon? If not ( this is probably pushing it, but no harm trying, i want to be clear if it works. fluff wise i doubt it would though ), then does the TW mount rending affect it?

 

SW bikers cost way too much and they are unreliable and get sucked in easy.

 

For such a good anti-tank unit for the logan long fangs. It is just expensive don't you think? Comment about LF above in earlier post about all eggs in one basket.

 

First batrep with IP up here:

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=186260

 

thanks

antique_nova

[Spacefrisian]

To make Jaws work youre target needs to have Inniative to test on. Since vehicles dont have one you cant use it on them. Unless you didnt mend that.